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An American atheist by the name of Dan Baker described Buddhist as not believing in the existence of God. It is the same as what the atheist followers has been preaching about.
Is it true? Why do Buddhist called Gautama as Lord Buddha? Is he God or has he reached the staged the same level as God?
Thank You.
[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 8-6-2005 at 08:59 PM ] |
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by Gravedigger
An American atheist by the name of Dan Baker described Buddhist as not believing in the existence of God. It is the same as what the atheist followers has been preaching about.
Atheists are the last bunch who knows anything about Buddhism. And Atheism is nothing to do or similar to Buddhism. It is opposite of Christianity in effect.
In Christianity, Christians continued to reject everything which is not part of Bible (the same way Muslims do). In same but opposite way, Atheists accept Science (despite of knowing that science knowledge is ever changing one) as their religion and rejects everything else which is not part of (their notion of) Science. At least, that's what I understood in my time spent in other of their forums.
In Christian society, they still drink alcohol, have premarital sex and such. WHY? Because to them, their religion is something 2nd important and something which they could model with their living styles.
Buddhism is not like that. It holds rigidly to the concept of Karma - What you sow is what you reap. It has no place for evil conducts outside what preached by Dharma.
Is it true? Why do Buddhist called Gautama as Lord Buddha? Is he God or has he reached the staged the same level as God?
Lord here means a respected name given to a person of high status in a society. Same like Your Highness, "Baginda" (as to Muhammad despite of him not being a royal birth) and such.
Buddhist do not refer Gautama Buddha as a God, nor does reaching Nirwana means that one have become God.
Buddhists believe in several stage of existences (refer to the last parts of Buddhist Fundamental thread), the highest stage a person could reach is state of Nirwana which has no rebirth, hatred and such. |
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Thank You for the answers.
So after reaching the highest stage of Nirwana, where do the person goes?
Is there a concept of rewards in heaven and hell like the Muslim and Christians belief? |
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by Gravedigger
So after reaching the highest stage of Nirwana, where do the person goes?
That is something ONLY an Enlightened Person could answer. Gautama Buddha did not say either, maybe He thought that we should try and find out for ourselves.
I could guess that such person will never reborn again and remain in state of Nirwana (bliss) forever. This is just a guess, mind you.
Is there a concept of rewards in heaven and hell like the Muslim and Christians belief?
Yup, there is a heaven and hell but it is a temporarily one.
To understand it, you must understand that how Merits (Pahala) and Sin (works) in determining Heaven and Hell. They are like currency of a sort. You pay or get paid for whatever you do, which depends on where you are.
You go to heaven and stay there for as long as you have Merit (Pahala) and when you run out, you either go to Hell to pay for your Sin OR reborn in the world of the living once again. Same goes for Hell too. |
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Also, in replying to your statement that buddhism is atheist is not accurate. read the below quote from a site:
http://www.tipitaka.net/ebooks/p ... ddhism%20Atheistic?
Is Buddhism Atheistic?
Atheism is associated with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world.
The Buddha has condemned godlessness by which He meant the denial of worship and renunciation, the denial of moral and social obligations, and the denial of a religious life. He recognized most emphatically the existence of moral and spiritual values. He acclaimed the supremacy of the moral law. Only in one sense can Buddhism be described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of an eternal omnipotent God or God-head who is the creator and ordainer of the world. The word 'atheism', however, frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications which are in no way applicable to the Buddha's Teaching. Those who use the word 'atheism', often associate it with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world of the senses and the slight happiness it can bestow. Buddhism advocate nothing of that sort.
There is no justification for branding Buddhists as atheists, nihilists, pagans, heathens or communists just because they do not believe in a Creator God. The Buddhist concept of God is different from that of other religions. Differences in belief do not justify name-calling and slanderous words.
Buddhism agrees with other religions that true and lasting happiness cannot be found in this material world. The Buddha adds that true and lasting happiness cannot be found on the higher or supramundane plane of existence to which the name of heavenly or divine world is given. While the spiritual values advocated by Buddhism are orientated to a state transcending the world with the attainment of Nibbana, they do not make a separation between the 'beyond' and the 'here and now'. They have firm roots in the world itself, for they aim at the highest realization in this present existence.
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Thanks for the info. I've taken some time reading about it found out that there are some similarities between the teaching of Buddha and Sufism in Islam especially in the concept of heaven and hell.
The only difference in Buddhism is idol worshipping that cannot be accepted in Islam. Could you care to explain since when it was started as Gautama Buddha himself never did the act ? TQ. |
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by Gravedigger
Thanks for the info. I've taken some time reading about it found out that there are some similarities between the teaching of Buddha and Sufism in Islam especially in the concept of heaven and hell.
Many religions in the world agreed of Heaven and Hell. The difference between Muslim Hell and Buddhist (and Hindusm) Hell is that Muslim Hell is eternal. Once you in, you in for existence.
Buddhism stated that Hell is not eternal. You are there as long as you have to to pay for your sins. Once your time is over, you will be reborn to the World of Man (but not exactly as Man but could be anything), where you can once again try to become a better person than you were before OR repeat the same mistake again. Your choice.
The only difference in Buddhism is idol worshipping that cannot be accepted in Islam. Could you care to explain since when it was started as Gautama Buddha himself never did the act ?
Yup, Gautama Buddha did not instruct his pupil to have images of him to be worshipped.
Most people have it to pay homage and respect. They put the idol and spend time chanting hymns and things like that. It is something like meditation for Lay men.
Also, many Asian culture have shrines where they honor the deceased family members. So in that way also, Buddhist have shrines for Buddha to honor and remind themselves of what they should be doing. |
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Originally posted by Gravedigger at 12-10-2004 11:25:
Thanks for the info. I've taken some time reading about it found out that there are some similarities between the teaching of Buddha and Sufism in Islam especially in the concept of hea ...
Correction. As Vijaya had pointed out earlier, in actual, it is not worshipping buddha and bodhisatta statues but bow in respect. |
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Originally posted by ariyamusafir at 12-10-2004 03:45 PM:
Correction. As Vijaya had pointed out earlier, in actual, it is not worshipping buddha and bodhisatta statues but bow in respect.
Vijaya?:stp: |
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Originally posted by fleurzsa at 13-10-2004 23:00:
Vijaya?:stp:
check out previous posts. |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-10-6 11:10 AM:
In Christian society, they still drink alcohol, have premarital sex and such. WHY? Because to them, their religion is something 2nd important and something which they could model with their living styles.
just to clarify.... a christian does not hv premarital sex or perform any form of immoral sex. to them, God does not take 2nd place... instead they place God above everything else including their lives & the lives of their love ones. the 'christian society' u hv described above may be a christian society by name only & not a true follower of JC. there is a distinction here... even i dare not say i'm a christian but a believer of JC. I do try to be a follower of JC though, doing what is expected of me as a christian. i hope u don't take my explanation here the wrong way, sephiroth, but yr assumption nd clarification.
also, drinking alcohol is not a sin unless it is binge drinking till one is out of control of one's own actions. i can't imagine a christian getting drunk out of his/her mind. |
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by Kazuo
just to clarify.... a christian does not hv premarital sex or perform any form of immoral sex. to them, God does not take 2nd place... instead they place God above everything else including their lives & the lives of their love ones. the 'christian society' u hv described above may be a christian society by name only & not a true follower of JC. there is a distinction here... even i dare not say i'm a christian but a believer of JC. I do try to be a follower of JC though, doing what is expected of me as a christian. i hope u don't take my explanation here the wrong way, sephiroth, but yr assumption nd clarification.
Hmph ... you don't know much about Christians, do you? ;)
I have plenty of people who were fanatic enough to follow strictly what is said to be Christianity principles, and at same time, doing the opposite.
I had seen Christian man who walk around with Bible in the pocket in the morning, and refer to it whenever he wants, and then, the same person will disappearing with a woman at nightime.
I have seen Christian man who talk on how bad Muslim society is and how great and holy Christians are when he was staring at obscene material in his monitor at THAT very same moment.
There is three types of Christians ...
1st Generation Christians - someone who just converted into Christianity. Very strict in following the Christian ways like what you have described, and also fanatic in nature.
2nd Generation Christians - someone born out of the 1st generation (daughter or son of the 1st generation). Less strict and fanatic in nature, begin to question Christian values while trying to learn other things and other people.
3rd Generation Christians - someone who is Christian ONLY in names. He or she will conduct premarital sex, alcholol etc and make God as 2nd or 3rd important thing in live.
Most of the time, 3rd generation Christians will give birth to more like them who are only Christians by name or they will end up being Atheists or convert to some other religion.
also, drinking alcohol is not a sin unless it is binge drinking till one is out of control of one's own actions. i can't imagine a christian getting drunk out of his/her mind.
Hmph ... What action he supposed to be out of control off?
It is SIN till he drinks and fall flat on the floor but NOT when he lost control of his vehicle and slam into someone in the road?
It is SIN when he is drunk but NOT sin if he fight, hurt or verbally abuse others in bars, pubs and such places?
What actions which he supposed to lose control because he is actually said to be sinned?
I begin to understand why so many Chinese Teenagers die in the road accidents after night out in the town. ;) |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-10-15 07:54 AM:
by Kazuo
just to clarify.... a christian does not hv premarital sex or perform any form of immoral sex. to them, God does not take 2nd place... instead they place God above everything el ...
i'm afraid i know more ab christianity than u do. i hv asked u not to take my explanation the wrong way bcoz i do not wish to argue with u. it's up to u how u want to see things. i don't deny that there are many christians who are hypocrites & who are like devils in disguise but these ppl do not represent what a true christian is all ab, nor do all christians do all those things that u've described & that was what i was trying to explain.
but if u insist that you're right, then is it fair that i too think most buddhists are hypocrites? bcoz i know many buddhists especially business ppl who has conned many ppl's money & these ppl hv altar in their hses. they're also corrupted, & most of them sleeps with prostitutes & this 1 guy that i know even secretly has got a mistress, but he has got such a huge altar in his hse. do they represent what buddhism is about?
i'm not sure what you're trying to proof by asking those questions where alcohol is concern, but again, it's not a sin to drink alcohol. it's only a sin when they binge drink till they are out of control that they might injure others.
ok. this topic is ab who's god in buddhism. i just don't see why u hv to smear christians mostly concocted out of yr misinterpretations & make comparisons like that with buddhists. we should know by now that religion is there to make us a better person bcoz we're evil by nature, no matter what religion we embrace.
[ Last edited by Kazuo on 18-10-2004 at 06:08 AM ] |
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by Kazuo
i'm afraid i know more ab christianity than u do. i hv asked u not to take my explanation the wrong way bcoz i do not wish to argue with u. it's up to u how u want to see things. i don't deny that there are many christians who are hypocrites & who are like devils in disguise but these ppl do not represent what a true christian is all ab, nor do all christians do all those things that u've described & that was what i was trying to explain. but u seem to paint an ugly picture of all christians, incl those who live by the Book, & lump them up as all the same. i'm not so worried ab yr prejudices towards christians but more on what others, who don't know any better, might think of what you've written.
You are what I call 1st or 2nd generation Christians. Yeah, you do live by the book because that's what your generation does. But sooner or later, your children or their children will err and you won't be capable of doing anything but to nod silently and watch.
The whole affair is a circle of destruction ... You are a non-Christian. You pick up Christianity and choose it as your religion. You become the 1st generation. In your attempt to deepen your understanding of Christianity, you reject everything which was your past - your culture, heritage, family name etc.
Your children born, they are the 2nd generation. You force what you believe into them, they have no choice but to accept it. Even if you are flexible person, it will not matter. They will mingle with others and begin to question things you take for granted.
Their children born, they are the 3rd generation. By now, they will not have any heritage, culture or principles other than what you and their parents have shown. They will start questioning deeply what you try to believe as true. There will be a clash between you and them. Some of them will choose to ignore Christianity and follow it just to please people like you. Some even choose other religion or atheism.
And the circle of destruction is complete. In within 80 years (3 generations), you will become a cultureless, heritageless and faithless person who in the end of your life, could still looking whether God exists or not.
THAT is your Fate. 
but if u insist that you're right, then is it fair that i too think most buddhists are hypocrites? bcoz i know many buddhists especially business ppl who has conned many ppl's money & these ppl hv altar in their hses. they're also corrupted, & most of them sleeps with prostitutes & this 1 guy that i know even secretly has got a mistress, but he has got such a huge altar in his hse.
Having altar in the house does not means he is sinless or that he is freed from his sin. Karma is about getting what you deserve, once you have sin against others, you expected to pay for it, no matter how many altars you built and how many temples you donate money to.
In Buddhism, no one died for your sins, you WILL die for it.
i'm not sure what you're trying to proof by asking those questions where alcohol is concern, but again, it's not a sin to drink alcohol. it's only a sin when they binge drink till they are out of control that they might injure others. i drink red wine occasionally. hv i sinned?
Sin is not by actions alone, sins is also by thought.
When a person does not control his thoughts and let it astray, he is sinned. When you drink, your control of your thoughts demised. When it demised, you will start think all kind of thoughts - hatred, lustful, anger, resentment etc. And if you are drunk enough, you will put it in action. When that done, you have sinned.
ok. this topic is ab who's god in buddhism. i just don't see why u hv to smear christians mostly concocted out of yr misinterpretations & make comparisons like that with buddhists. we should know by now that religion is there to make us a better person bcoz we're evil by nature, no matter what religion we embrace.
That is a question I have been think for the past few days ... Are humans evil by nature?
Hindusm and Buddhism doesn't believe that humans are evil by nature, just misguided.
Abrahamic religions believe that humans are evil by nature. |
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I think I have to lock this thread. It has become a flamminag area. This is for both of you, Sephiroth and Kazuo. Many evil acts or corrupt practices being practised by people of different faiths are not because of that their religion teaches them to have pre-maritial sex and the so. Many religion teaches its followers to do good but they, themselves practices otherwise. Example, there are rape cases by a muslim father to the daughter. From what I know, in Islam, that is what you cannot do but they still do it. Why?? We buddhist are not to kill, yet many still kill, ants etc. Why??? Can we blame religion??? No! We can't. It is the people, the individual or community. Thus, this thread is to be locked because of reasons.
[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 18-10-2004 at 08:53 AM ] |
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muchomike This user has been deleted
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Buddhism and God
I do not accept the 'God Exists" concept which i believe is the same with the majority of Buddhists here. I was born Buddhist/Taoist but now, i am not a Buddhist per_se. i have been involved a number of spiritual practices(including Vipassana). i can accept most of the core Buddhist tenets, except the Rebirth concept.
By definition, if you are not a Theist, then you are an Atheist. Frankly i do not like the 'Atheist' label which have bad vibes. I would prefer to be a non-theist. Anyway, these are just forms not substance.
Sephiroth have been condemning me in the 'Other thread' for not accepting the "God Exists' concept.
I find it an irony when he condemned those who do not believe in god which indirectly would include Buddhists, and yet he is posting as if he is the 'Buddha'.
I would like to post some views on 'God' by various Buddhist teachers here as a reference point.
I understand some Mahayanist do use the "god" concept in a limited way, but as Nyanaponika said, they are ideas subject to impermanence.
****************quote
Buddhism and the God-Idea
by Nyanaponika Thera
(extracts only)
Quite contradictory views have been expressed in Western literature on
the attitude of Buddhism toward the concept of God and gods. From a
study of the discourses of the Buddha preserved in the Pali Canon, it
will be seen that the idea of a //personal diety//, a creator god
conceived to be eternal and omnipotent, is incompatible with the
Buddha's teachings. On the other hand, conceptions of an //impersonal
godhead// of any description, such as world-soul, etc., are excluded by
the Buddha's teachings on Anatta, non-self or unsubstantiality.
In Buddhist literature, the belief in a creator god
(//issara-nimmana-vada//) is frequently mentioned and rejected, along
with other causes wrongly adduced to explain the origin of the world;
as, for instance, world-soul, time, nature, etc. God-belief, however,
is placed in the same category as those morally destructive wrong views
which deny the kammic results of action, assume a fortuitous origin of
man and nature, or teach absolute determinism. These views are said to
be altogether pernicious, having definite bad results due to their
effect on ethical conduct.
But for an earnest believer, the God-idea is more than a mere device
for explaining external facts like the origin of the world. For him it
is an object of faith that can bestow a strong feeling of certainty,
not only as to God's existence "somewhere out there," but as to God's
consoling presence and closeness to himself. This feeling of certainty
requires close scrutiny. Such scrutiny will reveal that in most cases
the God-idea is only the devotee's projection of his ideal - generally
a noble one - and of his fervent wish and deeply felt need to believe.
These projections are largely conditioned by external influences, such
as childhood impressions, education, tradition and social environment.
Charged with a strong emotional emphasis, brought to life by man's
powerful capacity for image-formation, visualization and the creation
of myth, they then come to be identified with the images and concepts
of whatever religion the devotee follows. In the case of many of the
most sincere believers, a searching analysis would show that their
"God-experience" has no more specific content than this.
Buddhism has sometimes been called an atheistic teaching, either in an
approving sense by freethinkers and rationalists, or in a derogatory
sense by people of theistic persuasion. Only in one way can Buddhism be
described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of
an eternal, omnipotent God or godhead who is the creator and ordainer
of the world. The word "atheism," however, like the word "godless,"
frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications,
which in no way apply to the Buddha's teaching.
Buddhism is not an enemy of religion as atheism is believed to be.
Buddhism, indeed, is the enemy of none. A Buddhist will recognize and
appreciate whatever ethical, spiritual and cultural values have been
created by God-belief in its long and chequered history. We cannot,
however, close our eyes to the fact that the God-concept has served too
often as a cloak for man's will to power, and the reckless and cruel
use of that power, thus adding considerably to the ample measure of
misery in this world supposed to be an all-loving God's creation. For
centuries free thought, free research and the expression of dissident
views were obstructed and stifled in the name of service to God. And
alas, these and other negative consequences are not yet entirely things
of the past.
**********************unquote
For full article see:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp03.htm or
http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/godidea.zip
This full article is definitely worth reading for those who have not read it yet. |
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muchomike This user has been deleted
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http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/genbud/religion.zip
BUDDHISM AS A RELIGION *
Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda
Concept of God 朆uddhist View
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is how imagination and humanism eventually fused
together to become religion. Some people say that it is
difficult to believe that any god created religion.
Perhaps we could say that man created religion and later
introduced the concept of a god into religion. An
American philosopher, Prof. Whitehead, once stated that
originally man created god and later god created man.
What he meant was that the concept of god was created by
man and later this concept was transformed into
divinity. On the other hand, a French philosopher,
Anatole France said that if the concept of god did not
exist. some how or other, man would have created one
because it is very important for his psyche. A divine
power is necessary to allay our innate fear, suspicion,
worries, disturbances, anxiety, craving. To avoid
problems we depend on an external force to give us
solace. Knowing the nature of the human mind, therefore,
Anatole France said that if a god did not exist we would
have to create one.
In this sense we are just like children. When a small
baby is crying and the mother is too busy to carry it,
what she does is to put a teat in its mouth to comfort
it. That will stop the baby from crying. The concept of
god helps many people in this manner. To stop their
worries and dry their tears they develop various
pacifiers in the form of religious beliefs and
practices.
Beliefs and Practices in Ancient India
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was no reason at all for the Buddha to introduce
another religion because at that time 2600 years ago
there were already 62 religious cults in India alone.
Since the existing religions during his time could not
provide the answers to his questions he decided not to
use the ingredients or concepts of these religions to
introduce what he himself had realised.
What was the religious thinking in India at the time?
"God created everybody; god is responsible for
everything; god will reward; god can forgive a11 our
sins; and god is responsible for our lives after our
death; god will send us to heaven or He will send us to
Hell".
These are the basic ingredients of all religions even
today. At the same time there were certain other
religions also in India which taught that it was
necessary for believers to torture their physical
bodies, thinking that they could wash away all their
sins during their lifetimes so they could go to heaven
after death. Another religious group encouraged
religious rites and rituals and ceremonies and animal
sacrifices to please their gods. This group believed
that through these practices they could go to heaven.
Some others again introduced prayer and worship and
asked forgiveness for the sins committed. The Buddha did
not recognise the efficacy of all these practices. |
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by muchomike
I do not accept the 'God Exists" concept which i believe is the same with the majority of Buddhists here. I was born Buddhist/Taoist but now, i am not a Buddhist per_se. i have been involved a number of spiritual practices(including Vipassana). i can accept most of the core Buddhist tenets, except the Rebirth concept.
If you are not Buddhist (per_se or anything), then WHAT are you doing in Buddhism column?
It doesn't matter how many practises you involve in, if you do not have spiritualism and see it just another "exercise" like jogging, walking etc, then it is useless to you and it is useless to others (via discussion). In another word, you practise empty practises which brings nothing good.
Sephiroth have been condemning me in the 'Other thread' for not accepting the "God Exists' concept.
I find it an irony when he condemned those who do not believe in god which indirectly would include Buddhists, and yet he is posting as if he is the 'Buddha'.
Wrong ... You have condemned yourself; no one had condemned you. I have clearly and many times, spoke out my intentions.
I would like to post some views on 'God' by various Buddhist teachers here as a reference point.
However, this is a GOOD thread. It is needed to show Buddhists about the difference between Beliefs and Non-Belief System like yours and mine.
Ultimately, I hope it will show Buddhist the path which awaits them should they abandon the belief in God(s) or accept them and continue become a good Buddhist. Let they who read be YOUR judge.
I will read and answer ONLY if YOU call me out directly to answer. Fair? |
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muchomike This user has been deleted
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If you are not Buddhist (per_se or anything), then WHAT are you doing in Buddhism column?
It doesn't matter how many practises you involve in, if you do not have spiritualism and see it just another "exercise" like jogging, walking etc, then it is useless to you and it is useless to others (via discussion). In another word, you practise empty practises which brings nothing good.
By the way, most(not all) religions and spiritual practices would discourage their followers from being too presumptuous and judgemental about others.
More so when they do not have sufficient details about others.
Here is what Archaan Chaa, said about it;
"Others think they know. They critisize, they watch, they judge. That's OK. Leave their opinion to them. This discrimination is dangerous. It is like a road with a very sharp curve. If we think others are worse or better or the same as us, we go off the curve. If we discriminate, we will only suffer."
Source: Teaching of Twelve Buddhist Masters: Jack Kornfield. 1997, pg 47. |
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Post time 6-10-2004 10:35 AM
变色卡
Author
