[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Originally posted by Debmey at 25-2-2005 02:36 PM:
We already proved it. Mo is a paedophile by having sex with Aisha when she was only 9 years old.

Dont change the subject Debmey, show proof that Mohammad married another man's wife.

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by samerosie at 25-2-2005 02:34 PM:


Er, the correct answer would be, since you claim Mohammad was one, show proof that the OT does not encourage it?

No, my question is clear. We've proved to you muhammad was a pedophile.
http://www.geocities.com/mass493z/pedophile.html

Involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 or younger)
Is over the age of 16...

   Since you deny this, you have to present to us why muhammad doesn't fit the criteria of a pedophile, meaning you have different definition of pedophilia. Don't demand from us proof from the OT thats condemned it, because nowhere in the OT encourage it either. The verse from numbers by FUZZMAN does not prove anything, as debmey said, no mention of sex at all in those verse.

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 25-2-2005 03:41 PM:


No, my question is clear. We've proved to you muhammad was a pedophile.
http://www.geocities.com/mass493z/pedophile.html

Involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (g ...

You didn't prove anything.  If you want to challenge this, take this account and go to any historians and any scholars in the world and they will tell you that he was not.

Can you proof that Aisha had not reached puberty at 9 years of age?  Wait, do you KNOW what is the meaning of the word puberty in the first place?

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-25 03:41 PM:


No, my question is clear. We've proved to you muhammad was a pedophile.

Involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (g ...

You have not proven anything to that effect. Nothing. Zero.

I have already stated that the marriage was DIVINELY ORDAINED.

Thus like everything that the Prophet  did, there was wisdom behind it and lessons to be learned from it.  The wisdom behind such incidents provides us guidance on the basis of human morality, exposes the double standards of misguided hypocrites from other religions that criticize Islam and much more.

According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities.


In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society.


Prophet Muhammad's  marriage to Lady Ayesha, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come.


Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians to criticise the Prophet's   marriage to Lady Ayesha  at such a young age.


In case Christians like 'Divine' pony tail  are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married:


Fuzzman and many Muslim forum members have already stated their stand on this but you pretend ignorance.

Again, let me quote Muslim writer Abdulrahman Squires  :


"Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty.  However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old.  Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old.


I live in a country (USA) where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist".   So even though Christians might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today梬hether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion梩hey too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism". Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who do not believe in a Divine basis for morality, but they're giving in nonetheless.


Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty.  This was the case in Biblical times, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world.  

As the ahadith about 'Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage.  The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period).  


Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a woman is capable of bearing children.  Can anyone logically deny this?  Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's Muhammad's  marriage to 'Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus  grew up in).  


The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time which a marriage can be consummated is at the onset of sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty.  Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today梚t is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new!"

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 25-2-2005 at 04:21 PM ]

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by samerosie at 25-2-2005 03:51 PM:


You didn't prove anything.  If you want to challenge this, take this account and go to any historians and any scholars in the world and they will tell you that he was not.

Can you proof that ...

What? Now you want me to challlenge the historians/scholars? Why? FUZZMAN challenge us to proof muhammad was a pedophile, and we did it here. Don't need to take this anywhere else. Proof to us any independent scholar that say muhammad was not a pedophile.

Did i say aisha did not reach puberty at age nine? Do you even know there are stages of puberty?

http://www.puberty101.com/p_pubgirls.shtml

Sign of puberty does not mean the girl is ready for marriage, mentally and physically. Can you imagine how a nine year old girl look like?

Did i say aisha did not reach puberty at age nine? Do you even know there are stages of puberty?
---------
Then you are contradicting yourself.  Make up your mind.

As a woman myself, I know what are the signs of female puberty and I dont need puberty101.com to teach me.  Even with that website, you cannot comprehend puberty do you?  

Stage 3
Age Range: Usually 9-15. Average: 12-13
Breast growth continues, and pubic hair coarsens and becomes darker, but there still isn't a lot of it. Your body is still growing, and your vagina is enlarging and may begin to produce a clear or whitish discharge, which is a normal self-cleansing process. Some girls get their first menstrual periods late in this stage.

Now, can you proof that Aisha had not reached puberty then by age 9?  No you can't.

Yes, I want you to challenge the historians and scholars, at least we would know that you are wrong. Or if you dont want to, you can proof to us that child brides are NOT acceptable 1500 years ago.  

Then you can talk.

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by KENNKID at 25-2-2005 04:05 PM:



You have not proven anything to that effect. Nothing. Zero.

I have already stated that the marriage was DIVINELY ORDAINED.

Thus like ev ...

KENNKID

   What is the wisdom of a 57 year old man marrying a 6 year old child?
Can you please tell me? was it political, was it God's commandment.
   And cut the crap about people in biblical time marrying under aged girls. We're talking about prophets here. Is marrying and having sex with a 9 year old girl, moral to you?

If yes, then i assume you will have no problem marrying and have sex with a nine year old, which makes you a really sick man and need to be send to a psychiatrist.

If not, then i say you're a hypocrite.

What is the wisdom of a 57 year old man marrying a 6 year old child?
--------
Aisha was known as the Mother of the Believers.  She was young and curious and closest to Mohammad. She was still alive when the Quran was compiled thus she was also a commentator on the Quran, an authority on had顃h and knowledgeable in Islamic Law.  She narrated at least 2,210 had顃h that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad.  

That was only one of the wisdoms.


And cut the crap about people in biblical time marrying under aged girls. We're talking about prophets here. Is marrying and having sex with a 9 year old girl, moral to you?
---
You forget, Mohammad was a man, only a messenger of God, unlike Jesus whom you revered as god.  Propehets are men, they still live, eat and sleep, marry and reproduce like any other man, the only difference is that they were the lucky ones, the chosen ones by God to spread His message.  

If a prophet was chosen in OUR TIMES, this era, do you think he would marry a child under the legal age?  

You have to differentiate living in the 7th century and in the 21st century.

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-25 04:28 PM:


KENNKID

   What is the wisdom of a 57 year old man marrying a 6 year old child?
Can you please tell me? was it political, was it God's commandment.
   And cut the crap about people in bib ...

PONY TAIL:

None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to Lady Ayesha's  young age.  On the contrary, the marriage of Ayesha  to the Prophet  was encouraged by Ayesha's father, Abu Bakr, and was welcomed by the community at large.  


It is reported that women who wanted to help the Prophet , such as Khawlah bint al-Hakeem, encouraged him to marry the young  Ayesha.  Due to the Semitic culture in which they lived, they certainly saw nothing wrong with such a marriage.


Society's ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called "modern" and "civilized" West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur'anic times.  Unfortunately, many of us carry the baggage of "romantic love" and ideas about sex that have managed to poison our minds since the Europeans (and their ideas) came to dominate the globe.

The European colonial powers have pulled out of almost all Muslim lands and many countries in Asia, but the colonization of the minds continues!  

The  sad part is that most people do not even realize that they are under such un-Godly influences.

_______________________________________________

From Abdulrahman Squires:

"To put all of this in perspective

kyas

the wisdom is... aisyah can tell hadith and sunnah... to the next generation.

I would like to quote more of what AbdulRahhman Squires (Who is  formerly a Christian Church minister) says: :


"From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained.  His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time.  


In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before.


By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'."


FROM ABRAHAM  TO "PICK-AND-CHOOSE / FEEL GOOD RELIGION"

Everything that we have discussed above logically frees Muhammad  from the unjust criticism that he has received (at least amongst those who can be intellectually honest and fair-minided).  One point, however, still needs to be made a bit more clear.  Even though we've mentioned it in passing, the hypocrisy and double standards of Christians who criticize Muhammad  for his morality needs to be more thoroughly analysed and exposed.

Before moving on to an analysis of Biblical morality, I would like to offer some advice and encouraging words to my fellow Muslims. My main piece of advice is to not be discouraged by slanderous attacks on Islam or how it is distorted in the media.


Certainly, we all hate to see such things occur, but in the "Information Age" which was brought about by a culture that (allegedly) places a supreme value on freedom of speech, there is not much that we can do to stop it. The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it.


Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that Christians and others are using to stop it. From the "moon god" lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West.  


Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as Christian missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam is a good sign.


Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause.  When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised.


The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous "Third World" religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way.


As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills Christian bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off Islam.


The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won't be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.


Their methods, however, are failing.  In Europe especially, the Christian religion is in a  severe state of stagnation and people are looking for truth elsewhere. Christians have always been embarrassed by their almost complete inability to convert a notable Muslim to Christianity.


Certainly, they have their converts that they hold up as examples, however all of them seem to have been only nominal Muslims (at best) when they converted.


However, many notable Westerners have embraced Islam, recently as well as in the past. One of the most interesting things about this is many (if not all) of these people could be called "Searchers for the Truth".


By this I mean that they were the type of people who were spiritual, open-mined and read books on many subjects. They were not brainwashed simpletons who simply wanted to join an easy religion and the dominating culture of the time.


They were people who knew a lot not only about religion, but about history, philosophy and other disciplines. Suffice it to say that the truth of Islam is out there, in spite of all the negative press that it gets today. The following is just one testimony that Islam is spreading in the West:

"Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches.  The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country . . . Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran.


She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America.  (The Times , London, Tuesday, November 9th, 1993,  Home-News page)


Thanks be to God that many of us who are former "pew warmers" finally decided to go out and investigate what they try to spoon feed us from the pulpit and TV.


Why does Islam succeed in attracting Christians and others?  Because it's the Clear Way of Abraham.  No other religion today can honestly claim this!  


Islam isn't just a "feel good" religion  where they just tell you what you want to hear and read selected verses from the Bible. Most Christians today approach religion like they do Sunday brunch: they take what they like and leave what they don't like.  They have this attitude in spite of the fact that Abraham is held up in their Bible as a towering example of faith.


  Abraham  , who was going to sacrifice his own son because Almighty God commanded it, certainly knew the basis of morality.  It is clear in both the Bible and the Qur'an that Abraham knew that whatever God commands is the right thing to do.  


However, how many Christians today can say that they honestly believe that on all issues? How many of them have reflected on the moral ramifications of what is contained in their Bible? Seemingly, not even their learned apologists who attack Islam have reflected on it too deeply!


The question "What is our basis for morality?" is an easy one for those who follow the faith of Abraham

Debmey

As we can clearly see from the above arguments. Mo was a paedophile for having sex with a 9 year old. Muslims are having a very hard time defending their master on this one.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-2-25 11:24 PM:
As we can clearly see from the above arguments. Mo was a paedophile for having sex with a 9 year old. Muslims are having a very hard time defending their master on this one.

What master? That word alone shows your lie. Your're the one who is being enslaved by paul the liar, the enemy of Jesus.

aenemy7

Phaedophile is sex without marriage with a minor.....still u all cannot give a hard proof to support your accusation,because it's a legal marriage!! try as best as u can and at the end of the day  i believe u'll have to admit it was a marriage....

:lol :lol :lol :

Allah Knows Best,Peace Yall....

Debmey

paedophilia

n : sexual activity of an adult with a child

The dictionary says nothin abt marriage justifying paedophilia.
Mo sure qualifies alright.

Why are you so ashamed of what Mo did that you need to justify his actions by twisting meanings of words?

Fuzzman

Debmey wrote: what else Fuzzy? Waht else? You seem to sink islam deeper into carnality rather than spirituality

What else? Where is the proof of Prophet Mohammad being a paedophile? Quoting Bukhari won't help because Bukhari only speaks of a marriage contract.

What else? This else?
You wrote: These virgins were simply people who were innocent of fornication because the Midianites were known to use sex as a tool of seduction. God is merciful and took those who were clearly innocent from judgment.
The above with regards to Numbers 31:40.
1. Why does God need a tribute of 32 young vigin dark-eyed maidens?
2. What does this tribute stand for?
3. Could it be possible that, the 32 young girls in Numbers 31:40 were meant to be "Chosen child prodigies", to be nurtured as prominent and religious figures in Hebrew society after intergration?

You wrote: 'Taking them for yourselves' simply means integrating them into the Hebrew society. Only a twisted mind like Fuzzy's will distort its meaning.
The above with regards to Numbers 31:17-18.
1. Why this there no such record in Hebrew history of this?
2. Why intergrate the young virgin girls [Num 31:18] and not the married women [Num 31:17] who were all put to the death instead? Why must the married women either still married or divorced be put to the death?
And  further more you mentioned that Aishah was barren and because of that she suffered psychologically. So where  is the proof?

DivinePonytail should help Debbo get out of this difficult post.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 26-2-2005 at 01:28 AM ]

Debmey

Why? Its simple, because the women were sexually perverted. Didn't you read my earlier posts?

So why must you follow a paedophile?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-2-26 01:27 AM:
Why? Its simple, because the women were sexually perverted. Didn't you read my earlier posts?So why must you follow a paedophile?

So finally you admit that the women children were sexually perverted in the verses from Numbers? Let me help you out here. Those women children were fed to the scourge of paedophilia during the time of Moses. Why must I follow a paedophile? Which one? Moses or God?

ARI FUZZMAN

aenemy7

Off course a phaedophile act is a sexual act before marriage with a minor....there's no legal bindings between it!! but Aisha case was a marriage and it's a legal marriage and there's a legal binding between it!! see u'll have nothing more to accused but admit that it was a marriage relations....c'mon debmey! try another way!!!


:lol :lol :lol

Allah Knows Best,Peace Yall....

Debmey

Mo the paedophile who took Aisha to bed when she was only 9 years old and playing with dolls.