The Koran and the Jews

The origins of the Ashkenazi Jews lie in the Khazar Empire. The Khazars were originally a nomadic tribe situated in the Caucasus region surrounding the river Volga. Around the end of the 6th century this nomadic tribe was gaining power through many military victories and was turning into an empire encompassing a huge area. Overtime the Khazar Empire had over 20 large tribes paying tributes to the Khazar King or Kagan as they called him, which included the Bulgars and the Magyars. The Khazars, being situated right in the middle of the Byzantine Christians to the west and Muslims to east, played an important role in limiting the Muslim expansion, although they weren抰 too friendly with Byzantium either. They were a major power to be reckoned with. However, they were also tolerant; they allowed several races to live in their territory, including Christians, Muslims, and even some Jews.
The Khazars themselves believed in a paganist shamanism religion.

The most interesting events happened in the middle of the 9th century when the Khazars decided that their old brand of paganism was not persuasive enough anymore. They needed something that would unite the empire but not associate them with Byzantium or the Muslims. The Khazars took example from the few Sephardic Jews who lived within their empire; these Jews were mainly exiles from Spain who chose to live in Khazaria due to their tolerance.

The Khazars saw this as a credible religion with many ancient books and lots of history behind it. Further more, it would not connect them with Christianity, or Islam, but both of these religions had their origins in Judaism. So, around the year 850, the Khazar Kagan officially proclaimed Judaism as the official religion of the empire.

This however, would not limit their long standing tolerance of other religions within the empire, only the upper class Khazars would actually convert. Shortly after this, the empire would reach their military and cultural peak, which would remain until the 12th century,

Long before, the Khazars became fearful of the Varangians from the north. These Varangians were from Scandinavia, we commonly know them as the Vikings. There were many battles between the Khazars and the Vikings. Overtime, this Viking presence got stronger. At a certain point, the Slavonic people living in the city of Novgorod would call upon the Swedish Vikings to come and take over them in order to help protect them against a group of nomadic tribes called the Pechinegs. The first Vikings chieftain to take over Novgorod was Rurik; from who we get the famous Rurikid Dynasity.

The Viking group that settled in what is now Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus became known as the 揜us.

Debmey

The hard genetics don't suggest so. This old story about Ashkenazis being Khazars have been debunked long ago.

Debmey

And Muslims still have no explaination on what the Quran says about Israel belonging to Jews.

Oh, what honor I have to get a PM from you Deb

I'm sure yu have never read the Bible before me fren, yu just like to talk big like Fuzzman.
---
Why?  Your bible never said what my bible said meh?  The world has already day and night on first day, vegetation on the third day when He only created the sun and the stars on the fourth day?

Now that you've talk, it's time that you walk my fren.

Hard scientific evidence does show that Ashkenazis are Jews, it doesn't matter how hard yu deny, they are still Jews.
--
Then, what are you waiting for, show us the hard scientific evidence my fren.

Cheerio.

Originally posted by samerosie at 29-6-2004 02:21 PM:
Oh, what honor I have to get a PM from you Deb

I'm sure yu have never read the Bible before me fren, yu just like to talk big like Fuzzman.
---
Why?  Your bible never said what my bible sa ...

I dont think samerosie is a muslim. I think she must be from KOS and I wonder how come samerosie knows Fuzzman? I thought she told us that she has just came across this forum recently.

Debmey

Samerosie already admited he is Muslim, didn't yu read?

And Muslims still don't follow what the Quran said abt Israel belonging to Jews.

As for all those 101 challenges to the Bible, I've answered them alllong ago on this forum. I think it would do well for samerosie to answer to what the Quran hav to say rather than stray away from what he didn't answer.

The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler

Traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark ages became converted to Judaism. Khazaria was finally wiped out by the forces of Ghengis Khan, but evidence indicates that the Khazars, themselves migrated to Poland and formed the cradle of Western Jewry.

http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/k181.html

Mr. Koestler was an Ashkenazi Jew and took pride in his Khazar ancestry. He was also a very talented and successful writer who published over 25 novels and essays. His most successful book, Darkness at Noon, was translated in thirty-three languages.

As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in 1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas...At the height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide... (OOooooo look's like someone got to him first!)
--
The Khazars converted, they were not semitic people.

More on Khazars genetic studies go to http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East." The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112. Abstract:

The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews.

PS:  In here the antropologists could not ascertain that the Shepardim and Ashkenazim are genetically related from the same root.  I'm just curious how Deb said it's confirmed as hard fact evidence?

Wicked, I dont know Fuzzman,  Debmey private message me with those.  So I replied here because I dont see why i should respond to him privately.

As for all those 101 challenges to the Bible, I've answered them alllong ago on this forum.
---
I'm still waiting for the Genesis explanation.  I was not here allong time ago, so if you would do me the honor of repeating as I did many times for Adm Cheng Ho.  Jesus Christ is salvation no?

I think it would do well for samerosie to answer to what the Quran hav to say rather than stray away from what he didn't answer.
---
Refer to my previous posts, I have repeated them many times so dont worry, you wont miss them.

Cheerio.

samerosie,

Exclude the word 'until doomsday' still goes back to the question why they should remain exiled today. In fact, your repeating did not address the issue pertaining to Koran's testament that it did not say Jews cannot return and the land was WRITTEN for the people of Moses - the Jews. Randomly taking a handful of passed history doesn't even make an argument.

Even more hilarious you insists "the Quran did not leave it open for their return" but at the same time, once again, giving oxymoron(this is a term not an insult) statement by saying you can't tell (don't know) whether now is the building sign of their returning. You're not sure that this is the arrangement in the making. The process of their returning but insists the Koran did not leave it open for their return. If it isn't, then it would have contradict your assertion God will gather them IN the promised land since this condition is not & should remain not present.

You disagree but were unable to prove otherwise. You don't know but you insists. That sums it up. It has been concluded. You may continue with your disapproval even though you failed to provide conclusive alternatives.

Let抯 just take the Babylonians and the Romans

Rosie, you still failed to comprehend that your effort to prove the 2 punishment is in accordance with the Koran only refers to the exiles. It did not say that they should remain exiled until now & today. Your onus is to prove that now is not the time for their return. Sadly, you fared pretty badly in the above when you're not sure the sign of returning is progessing.

The key words would be with the creation of Israel, although in OT and according to the anti-zionist Jews, it should be by the will of God, not human intervention

God's will is perfectly shown in tiny Israel's defence against surrounding aggressions. 4 times they were attacked, 4 times they defended themselves.

According to Christian views, the creation of Israel signifies the end of Hosea's prophesy that Jews would lose their kingdom i.e. lacking both government and king for some time. Also in Isaiah the day would come when Israel would blossom & sprout and fill the whole world with fruit. It had been fulfilled seeing Negev blooms would render doubt it was once a desert and that Israel is one of five food exporting countries. Zechariah also predicted Israel would rise in prominence in world politics. The list goes on. These conditions were not present in the past but had now surfaced. I am not sure about the Koran. Until now, I only know the signs of returning is vague in the Koran. It therefore, shouldn't be the case Muslims insists Jews cannot return now as there is no further detail telling them to stop the process of returning when they do not know themselves.

[quote]didn抰 the God in OT said that if they obey His commandments they will be love and all their prayers will be answered?  Didn抰 He say that He is a jealous God and that He will punish the children of the sins of the fathers

Originally posted by samerosie at 2004-6-29 03:14 PM:
Wicked, I dont know Fuzzman,  Debmey private message me with those.  So I replied here because I dont see why i should respond to him privately.

:setuju: A very wise and sensible decision.

You are a Muslim and you have never read the Bible before. You can never bluff me.
--
Why you want to PM me.  If you think that I'm a Muslim than say so, it's not a crime.  Why would I want to bluff you?  I'm just asking you to clarify some things from the bible.  You like me that much izzit ?  LOLOL

OK, what is the relationship between Abraham and Sarah in the bible?  Was this in Bible 101 too?

The origins of the Ashkenazi Jews lie in the Khazar Empire

I see why you deny their identity. The Khazarian nobles were converted and officially initiated into Sephardic Judaism, not Ashkenazic Judaism. If all modern European Jews were descended from the Khazars, then European Jewry would be primarily Sephardic in character and culture. Eh??

I repeat, Ashkenazims can be traced by the routes of their migration after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. They go north and westward and settles in Eastern Europe, Germany & France.

Does that end your argument?

u repeat , i repeat, we repeat, they repeat,,,,,
it never ends any argument - facts were presented facts are twisted and denied.

so here we go - i do not agree with you. end of story.

I see why you deny their identity. The Khazarian nobles were converted and officially initiated into Sephardic Judaism.
---
Then wouldnt it go against the OT for them to claim Israel as theirs when God said the land was for Abraham and his descendants only?

White,

Isn't your purpose here is to test the veracity of your source & opinion? Aren't you putting it to test to gauge its validity? If you're here to expound crippled views to the applause of your fellow bigots, you're even dumber than your posts suggest.

same to you adm. same to you.

how do u test the veracity?? with whaT syntax? ..absolute gobsmacked

..will you going to the balkans to interview ashkenazis or the middle east to explore these questions. or do you see who can come up with more links.

i dunno who is dumb - but you are not more intelligent than u are led to believe. nor are your views less crippled than mine.

the problems with you bible holding people are - you belive you have a hedgemony on truth. you are no better than the quran holding popiah wearing followers.

>>Aren't you putting it to test to gauge its validity?<<

yes if you& debbie are the adjucators - every test will fail.

[ Last edited by whitepig on 29-6-2004 at 03:49 PM ]

Then there is no purpose for you to disagree any more. LOL! Because you are in severe doubt. Amazingly, you'd rather believe your own source rather than others. How funny! Bigotry at its best.

yes same sort of bigotry u espoused. we are afterall human.

of course i believe my source - just like u believe yours.

just when i though you were dumb - u are infact dumbER.