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............................................ Last edited by albatross on 20-11-2014 02:59 PM
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Yes they have Taurat and Injil, but was that the original Moses Taurat or Isa's Injil? I highly doubt it.
One reason Qur'an was sent down to Muhammad because the Taurat and Injil has been corrupted, both were Islamic scriptures sent down to Islamic prophets. Jews and Christians were Muslim.
Jews rabbi (ulama) also created their own hadith aside Taurat, called Misnad.
And Christian priest (ulama) created a new dogma called Trinity and created New Testament (new hadith).
That is a hard evidence that ulama during the past histories ended-up corrupting Islam. Today's ulama also created their own diversion. But Qur'an is unchangeable, unlike Taurat and Injil, so they have to create new kitabs aside Qur'an. You know what. Last edited by kid on 18-11-2014 11:29 PM
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Yes they have Taurat and Injil, but was that the original Moses Taurat or Isa's Injil? I highly doubt it.
One reason Qur'an was sent down to Muhammad because the Taurat and Injil has been corrupted, both were Islamic scriptures sent down to Islamic prophets. Jews and Christians were Muslim.
Jews rabbi (ulama) also created their own hadith aside Taurat, called Misnad.
And Christian priest (ulama) created a new dogma called Trinity and created New Testament (new hadith).
That is a hard evidence that ulama during the past histories ended-up corrupting Islam. Today's ulama also created their own diversion. But Qur'an is unchangeable, unlike Taurat and Injil, so they have to create new kitabs aside Qur'an. You know what.
i agree with this....true |
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Muslims, can you answer this question? During the time of Muhammad, did the Jews and Christians have the Taurat and Injil with them?
You might not like the answer but since you asked :
Depends on what you mean by the Injeel (Gospel) and the Taurat (Torah). At the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) , he was obliged to believe that the Torah was revealed to Prophet Moosa(as) and the Injeel to Prophet Isa(as) per Quran3:84 (sahih international)
Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
However it was revealed to him that that the Torah has been corrupted , Quran2:75
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
As for the Injeel , only the revelation given to Prophet Isa(as) was acknowledged and recognized. This means that the entire New Testament was / is not recognized nor acknowledged as the Quran revelation did not state of Mark , Luke , Matthew , John , Paul , James etc
In fact the Quran has been vindicated as current biblical scholarship confirm what the Quran states that the Torah has been corrupted.
(1) The works of Dr Lisbeth S. Fried
relates the stories told about Ezra by medieval Christians to explain why their Greek Old Testament differs from the Hebrew Bible, as well as the explanations offered by medieval Samaritans concerning how their Samaritan Bible varies from the one the Jews use. Church Fathers as well as medieval Samaritan writers explained the differences by claiming that Ezra falsified the Bible when he rewrote it, so that in effect, it is not the book that Moses wrote but something else
Prof John FA Sawyer (pg 50 / 51)
All this , however does not give us a date for the writing down of the Torah .....
Indeed , the indications that are whatever it was - possibly part of Deuteronomy - it was not the Torah or 'The Five Books of Moses' in their present form ....
There are persistent traditions about the role of Ezra in establishing the 'Book of Law' as authoritative for his community
A quick confirmation check : deut34:5-8
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.
6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.
8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.
There is no way Moses would have written accounts after his death. Therefore there has to be someone else who wrote or part wrote the Torah.
(2) The New Testament? We don't know who were Mark , Luke , Matthew and John. Paul never met , talked and walked with Jesus. The author of Hebrews was an unknown. The book of 2 Peter is a problem. Prof Bart Ehrman's opinionUnlike Paul, Peter, a fisherman raised in rural Palestine, was most certainly illiterate. So was the Apostle John, who could have not written the Gospel bearing his name, says Ehrman.
The most problematic issue is that Jesus did not have any idea of what is the New Testament.
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(2) The New Testament? We don't know who were Mark , Luke , Matthew and John. Paul never met , talked and walked with Jesus.
Thats right!
Prophet Muhammad also had no idea that 200 years after his death some people created "new testament" called Hadith.
We don't know who were Bukhari, Muslim and the gang, the background history of them still unclear up to today. And they never walked, talked with Muhammad. |
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(2) The New Testament? We don't know who were Mark , Luke , Matthew and John. Paul never met , talked and walked with Jesus.
Thats right!
Prophet Muhammad also had no idea that 200 years after his death some people created "new testament" called Hadith.
We don't know who were Bukhari, Muslim and the gang, the background history of them still unclear up to today. And they never walked, talked with Muhammad. |
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Answer :- Yes, but not the same kind you have today which was massed produced in 1400s after the printing press were first opened in Venice.
In the past, they had holy books written on leather and kept aside by selected inviduals in special places like monasteries and temples. It will be the duty of the priest and monks to translate it (usually from Hebrew) to current language they are using and spread the message to the people during special occassions like the Passover, Easter and Christmas.
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kid posted on 19-11-2014 09:07 AM 
Thats right!
Prophet Muhammad also had no idea that 200 years after his death some people created "new testament" called Hadith.
We don't know who were Bukhari, Muslim and the gang, the background history of them still unclear up to today. And they never walked, talked with Muhammad.
You are mistaken.
Hadiths are not a creation but a compilation utilizing Isnad and Mantn. Big difference.
I noticed that you have a misunderstanding about what is Hadith. To you it means the saying of Prophet Muhammad(saw) only. No , it is not. It is a generic term meaning narrative , story , speech or news etc. It does not in any way to specifically mean the saying of Prophet Muhammad(saw). This is because it is used so often that people often think that hadith always have a connection with Prophet Muhammad(saw). An analogy to this is the term 'pampers' to mean disposable diapers whereas pampers is just a brandname.
Therefore when Hadiths is mentioned in the Quran , it doesn't mean the sayings of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
The noun “hadith” occurs in the Qur’an twenty three times (4.42, 4.78, 4.87, 4.140, 6.68, 7.185, 12.111, 18.6, 20.9, 31.6, 33.53, 39.23, 45.6, 51.24, 52.34, 53.59, 56.81, 66.3, 68.44, 77.50, 79.15, 85.17, 88.1). Its plural form “ahadith” is found five times (12.6, 12.21, 12.101, 23.44, 34.19). In these twenty eight verses, the term broadly means “narrative,” “story,” “speech,” or “news,” which may or may not be religious. For instance, God describes the Qur’an as “the best of hadith” (39.23), refers to the story of Moses as the “hadith of Moses” (20.9), and says about nations that He destroyed for rejecting the messengers He sent to them “We have made them ahadith” (23.44). Other variations of this term occur in another eight Qur’anic verses (2.76, 18.70, 20.113, 21.2, 26.5, 65.1, 93.11, 99.4).
Of the thirty six occurrences of the term “hadith” only one is linked to something specific to Prophet Muhammad. This is verse 93.11 where the Prophet is commanded by God to speak about His favor to him, i.e. making him a Prophet: “As for the favor of your Lord, haddith (speak about).” But even in this solitary instance, the verb “haddith” is used in its generic meaning. Indeed, the verb is used in another verse to refer to the speech of disbelievers (2.76).
We need to set a baseline on what is Hadith to avoid misunderstanding.
Do you agree with the above said definition? Settle this first before we go further. The arguments of Quranists cannot stand up to scrutiny because hadith is the main source of the sunna.
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by Sam1528
Hadiths are not a creation but a compilation utilizing Isnad and Mantn. Big difference.
When did this compilation took place? Before or after Muhammad's death?
Did Muhammad approved this "compilation"? Did he inspect the compilation to see whether it is error free and accordance to his teachings? |
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Sephiroth posted on 19-11-2014 01:10 PM
by Sam1528
When did this compilation took place? Before or after Muhammad's death?
Did Muhammad approved this "compilation"? Did he inspect the compilation to see whether it is error free and accordance to his teachings?
LOL , why are you trying to advertise your foolery? It is a known fact that Hadith is compiled after Prophet Muhammad(saw) death. That is why the system of Isnad and Mantn plus the classification of multiple transmission , single transmission etc.
Ask yourself the same question. Did your Hindu god(s) checked the contents of the Vedas / Baghavad Gita etc? Did your Hindu god(s) approve the compilation? What system do the Hindus use to ascertain that the verses can be traced back to the originator?
I think we should respect albatross's request
Last edited by sam1528 on 19-11-2014 01:35 PM
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kid posted on 19-11-2014 09:07 AM
Thats right!
Prophet Muhammad also had no idea that 200 years after his death some people cre ...
...thats why i doubt islam
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Sephiroth posted on 19-11-2014 09:27 AM
Answer :- Yes, but not the same kind you have today which was massed produced in 1400s after the pri ...
besides Jews and Islam...hindus also created multi gods ..the god of gender bender ...enuch are scared, samsu plus cigar smoking god etc
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by Sam1528
LOL , why are you trying to advertise your foolery? It is a known fact that Hadith is compiled after Prophet Muhammad(saw) death. That is why the system of Isnad and Mantn plus the classification of multiple transmission , single transmission etc.
READ the questions properly before answering. DO NOT ANSWER LIKE A RETARD.
WHEN did the compilation take place? Which means I asked for the year which the compilation had began and ended. |
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Sephiroth posted on 20-11-2014 08:34 AM
by Sam1528
READ the questions properly before answering. DO NOT ANSWER LIKE A RETARD.
WHEN did the compilation take place? Which means I asked for the year which the compilation had began and ended.
Yeah lor , your question is the question of a retard because this information is pretty basic.
If you talk of Bukhari etc compilation it is about 200 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw). That is the reason of utilizing Isnads and Mantn.
If you talk about the 'shifas' then it is during the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
Therefore the earliest Hadiths compilation is during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad(saw). An example is the prayer ritual , the transmission of how to pray (ie. the sequence etc) is actually a hadith meaning what Prophet Muhammad(saw) taught has been taught to others via his companions.
My turn now. Can you now provide the verification system by which your Vedas / Baghavad Gita has undergone. Meaning how do you trace the verses back to the originator.
I am sure you would refuse to answer and run ....
Last edited by sam1528 on 20-11-2014 12:37 PM
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by Sam1528
Therefore the earliest Hadiths compilation is during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad(saw). An example is the prayer ritual , the transmission of how to pray (ie. the sequence etc) is actually a hadith meaning what Prophet Muhammad(saw) taught has been taught to others via his companions.
I think you do not know what COMPILATION means.
Compilation means a COMPLETE TEXT or ITEM. In this case, the Hadith. When I asked when was the date of compilation for Hadith, it means WHEN WAS HADITH COMPLETED AS THE VERSION YOU HAVE TODAY?
You have said that Bukhari text was "added" to the Hadith 200 years AFTER Muhammad's death, is it correct?
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Sephiroth posted on 20-11-2014 01:13 PM
by Sam1528
I think you do not know what COMPILATION means.
Compilation means a COMPLETE TEXT or ITEM. In this case, the Hadith. When I asked when was the date of compilation for Hadith, it means WHEN WAS HADITH COMPLETED AS THE VERSION YOU HAVE TODAY?
You have said that Bukhari text was "added" to the Hadith 200 years AFTER Muhammad's death, is it correct?
What exactly are you looking for? Can you be precise?
'Shifa' means compilation. These were the compilation of the companions of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
Bukhari came later and took these compilation and a few other hadiths and came up with Sahih Bukhari.
If you ask for Sahih Bukhari , yes it is about 200 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw). If you you ask for the 'shifas' of the companions , then it is during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
BTW , Imam Bukhari did not add anything. He collected the hadiths (discriminate them using Isnad / Mantn) and compiled it to the now Sahih Bukhari. Why are you trying to claim that I stated that Imam Bukhari added to the hadith?
What are you looking for exactly?
Last edited by sam1528 on 20-11-2014 01:50 PM
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Brother sam. In the past people also collect compilations and make them as law.
Jews compilations called Misnad, using the same method Sanad and Mathan, this is now what followed by Jews aside Tawrat.
Christian compilations also known as Matthews, Lucas, John etc, also compiled by story using Sanad and Mathan method.
How we ended up believing the same method brother?
While Quran is clear and direct from God from word to word without Sanad and Mathan method. Quran completed by collecting the Writing! Not mouth to mouth story.
Yet we muslim fell into the same trap of so called compilation. Please think about it brother. Last edited by kid on 22-11-2014 03:03 PM
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kid posted on 22-11-2014 03:01 PM
Brother sam. In the past people also collect compilations and make them as law.
Jews compilations called Misnad, using the same method Sanad and Mathan, this is now what followed by Jews aside Tawrat.
Christian compilations also known as Matthews, Lucas, John etc, also compiled by story using Sanad and Mathan method.
How we ended up believing the same method brother?
While Quran is clear and direct from God from word to word without Sanad and Mathan method. Quran completed by collecting the Writing! Not mouth to mouth story.
Yet we muslim fell into the same trap of so called compilation. Please think about it brother.
Making laws is ok as long as it doesn't contradict scripture.
The Mishnah utilize the system of Isnad / Mantn? I have never come across this claim. As far as I know , it is a preserved oral tradition up to the time of Ezra (~ 450BC). It does not go all the way to Prophet Moosa(as). It is not even close to being the same as the Hadiths.
The books of the Gospel in the NT were written by unknowns , cannot even apply the methodology of Isnad
Nobody is denying the Quran. The part usage of Hadith is context to the Quran but the more importantly , usage is for Shariah. 2 simple questions
(1) How do you pray. By this I mean the sequence in the prayer ritual. This is from the Hadith where Prophet Muhammad(saw) taught his companions and they later taught others
(2) The Quran state of paying Zakat. It does not state the amount. However we fix it at 2.5%
You need to show me where in the Quran that state of such which I am sure you would be stuck.
Therefore Hadith is the practical aspect of the Quran or the Quran made practical.
Quran9:100 (sahih international)
And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.
Allah has promised paradise for these people. However these were the people who also transmitted the Hadith.
It is impossible to fabricate or change a mutawatir Hadith. You have rejected such. What is your objective reason in doing so?
Put it this way bro , I have yet to witness an objective reason for rejecting the Hadith.
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Making laws is ok as long as it doesn't contradict scripture
Bro... Qur'an clearly said do NOT make any other laws. So even if it doesn't contradict, new laws is forbidden.
Nobody is denying the Quran. The part usage of Hadith is context to the Quran but the more importantly , usage is for Shariah. 2 simple questions
(1) How do you pray. By this I mean the sequence in the prayer ritual. This is from the Hadith where Prophet Muhammad(saw) taught his companions and they later taught others
(2) The Quran state of paying Zakat. It does not state the amount. However we fix it at 2.5%
What shariah bro, or better, which Shariah? Shariah is human interpretation, in this world the shariah from place to place is much different! You go to Afghanistan, go to Africa, go to Arab and go to Malaysia, people apply Shariah differently! WHY? Because there are many version of Shariah! They just follow whatever Shariah told by their local ulama.
1. How do you pray? Do not mistaken, Qur'an taught about how to pray. Go read Qur'an. And whatever God taught in Qur'an is sufficient. God do not care where you put your hand, how you put your forehead to the ground, how you stand, you spell Qunut or not. This all human wishful thinking who taught Qur'an not complete so there must be Hadith to show how to do this and that. While praying (salat) in Qur'an have so much different meaning than what Hadith means.
2. Regarding Zakat, of course God told how much we should spent for Zakat. Do not mistaken by that people who said God not mentioning how much to spent Zakat. Bro... please read Qur'an first.
Put it this way bro , I have yet to witness an objective reason for rejecting the Hadith.
Ok bro Sam, probably if I bring forward few hadith, it might be more fair and objective rather than I bring Qur'an to you.
Let examine this hadith:
- "The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbal/12,21,39)
So you said Muhajireen and Anshar transmit the hadith, while prophet said do not write anything except Qur'an.
Bro, lets be clear on this... Would they transmit hadith while prophet ban it?
Last edited by kid on 22-11-2014 07:03 PM
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kid posted on 22-11-2014 07:02 PM
Bro... Qur'an clearly said do NOT make any other laws. So even if it doesn't contradict, new laws is forbidden.
Ok then , can you show me where in the Quran that states do not make other laws? We can have laws of going thru the red light. Quran states anything about such?
Like I stated , it is ok to make laws as long as it doesn't go against the Quran. It sould not be a problem.
What shariah bro, or better, which Shariah? Shariah is human interpretation, in this world the shariah from place to place is much different! You go to Afghanistan, go to Africa, go to Arab and go to Malaysia, people apply Shariah differently! WHY? Because there are many version of Shariah! They just follow whatever Shariah told by their local ulama.
1. How do you pray? Do not mistaken, Qur'an taught about how to pray. Go read Qur'an. And whatever God taught in Qur'an is sufficient. God do not care where you put your hand, how you put your forehead to the ground, how you stand, you spell Qunut or not. This all human wishful thinking who taught Qur'an not complete so there must be Hadith to show how to do this and that. While praying (salat) in Qur'an have so much different meaning than what Hadith means.
2. Regarding Zakat, of course God told how much we should spent for Zakat. Do not mistaken by that people who said God not mentioning how much to spent Zakat. Bro... please read Qur'an first.
Shariah means 'a path well trodden'. I stated that majority of the shariah Law is from Hadith. This doesn't mean there is none from the Quran. If you say its human interpretation then you are also admitting to the fact that of human interpretation to the Quran. You really need to be careful bro.
(1) Can you provide me the Quranic verse that teach us how to pray? This I mean the verses like when we should bow and prostrate and what is to be said at those positions. I really cannot find any. In addition , how many raka'at should we pray for each prayer. Perhaps you can be of help.
(2) I am not asking how we should spend for zakat. Every muslim since the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) agree that zakat is 2.5% of our income. Where in the Quran that state of such?
I am not trying to corner you but I am trying to point out the inconsistency of Quranists. You cannot say you just follow the Quran because it is not objective.
Ok bro Sam, probably if I bring forward few hadith, it might be more fair and objective rather than I bring Qur'an to you.
Let examine this hadith:
- "The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbal/12,21,39)
So you said Muhajireen and Anshar transmit the hadith, while prophet said do not write anything except Qur'an.
Bro, lets be clear on this... Would they transmit hadith while prophet ban it?
There is a valid explanation to this by Imam NawawiAl-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:
"Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi'een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.
They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, "Write it down for Abu Shaah";
In fact I can go one better from Kitab Al Ilm (Sunan Abu Dawud)
Book 25 , Number 3640
Narrated Zayd ibn Thabit:
Al-Muttalib ibn Abdullah ibn Hantab said: Zayd ibn Thabit entered upon Mu'awiyah and asked him about a tradition. He ordered a man to write it. Zayd said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) ordered us not to write any of his traditions. So he erased it.
However in Book 25 Number 3639
Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.
One says don't write but the words of Zayd. However the other says write , the very words of Prophet Muhammad(saw). The context is what I have provided from Imam Nawawi.
Take this being a honest discussion. I really would like to know what is the reason for you to embrace a Quranist standpoint. To be honest , I cannot see any objectivity in your position.
Last edited by sam1528 on 22-11-2014 08:28 PM
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Post time 18-11-2014 02:09 PM
变色卡
