About GOD

i212

I got this Idea after I read what Sepiroth have wrote in one of his post in a thread.

by Sepiroth 1-11-2006 04:26 PM
Hmph ... you pray to a god which you cannot proof exists, you want to talk about others.

Go ... Muslims have no god ... their prayers are useless.

I want some comment from Non-Muslim.

Do we need to see God in order to believe His truth?
Do we need to make some sculpture or illustration to represent God physical before we believe?

barney50

i212,

Do you need to see your father if you want to believe he exist? Or if he had died before your birth, do you need to see how he looked like or just imagine the discription your mother gave you? May be you have a better answer for this and so would like to hear from you.

Thank you.

i212

Please refer to Sepiroth reply. About how narrow-minded he is about God.
Its not about me...

But then, just want to answer

Do you need to see your father if you want to believe he exist? Or if he had died before your birth, do you need to see how he looked like or just imagine the discription your mother gave you? May be you have a better answer for this and so would like to hear from you.

We cant see GOD but we know He Exist.
We do not NEED to create something to Illustrate His Image.
We do not NEED to bow infront "Statue" and claim it as GOD Image in order to Define Our Believe.

GOD will NOT Show Himself to make People Believe.
GOD will NOT instruct people to illustrate His Image to make people believe.

GOD give rule to human being for a reason.
GOD command us to pray for a reason.
GOD sent His representative for a reason.
GOD sent Guidence for a reason.
GOD create everything for a reason.
GOD sent sickness, health, wealth etc for a reason.


We do not KNOW the reason clearly if we NOT believe in His Power.
We only KNOW the reason after we think and analyze every aspect of creation.

GOD are the MOST POWERFUL and what I think, GOD do not need a EQUAL PARTIES to create everything.
He can CREATE and INTRUCT everything with just a Say.

ANGELS, EVIL, HUMAN, ANIMAL, LIVING THING, are all HIS Creation and ALL ARE HIS SLAVE.
No ONE can be Equal and Powerful as HIM.

He Create Living Thing and Give Guidence to prevent mischief in Universe.

NOT POINTING ANY RELIGION but JUST THINK.

FROM MY THINKING, I Believe GOD exist. And ISLAM(submission to ONENESS GOD) teach everything.

Thank You.

Oreng

It seems that Seph have proven god exist by sculpting an image. What a fantastic way to cheat himself.

barney50

i212,

That is your opinion according to your understanding by your religion but you have not answered my question. What is your answer to my question? Answer that before I give my opinion of GOD and how he should be approached.

i212

This question?

by Barney50
Do you need to see your father if you want to believe he exist? Or if he had died before your birth, do you need to see how he looked like or just imagine the discription your mother gave you?

I do not need to see my father before I believe he exist.

Yes, maybe my curiosity need me to see how he looked like. Just want to know his face. If dont have the picture, then why should I worried as long as I know my existence are coorpration between my father and mother.

If my mother give me the Illustration that my father like brat pitt, then I just say, Ooo.. like that... hensem gak abah kan. Even she lying to me. I just believe as long as my mother not saying that my father is an animal or something.



About GOD... do people see Him? As long as I know, All idol represent "GOD" are illustration or some warrior face on that time.
Why need to do several Illustration or idol to represent GOD after we know GOD is ONE and we dont know HIS real Image.

Why need illustration for His image?

Sephiroth

by i212   

Please refer to Sepiroth reply. About how narrow-minded he is about God.
Its not about me...  

And what is wrong with what Barney said. It makes perfect sense to me. Even children who lost their parents still wonders about them.

We cant see GOD but we know He Exist.
We do not NEED to create something to Illustrate His Image.
We do not NEED to bow infront "Statue" and claim it as GOD Image in order to Define Our Believe.

How do you know God exists? That is the question here ... not whether one needs to illustrate His image or bow down to a statue. Basic question itself is - HOW do you know God exists?

GOD will NOT Show Himself to make People Believe.
GOD will NOT instruct people to illustrate His Image to make people believe.

If God do not show Himself, then what good is God?

In Old Testament, He had shown Himself (or signs from Him) to His prophets and people around the prophet by producing water, spliting the Red Sea, changing staff to snake and such. Suddenly, you going to say He is being so secretive? :stp:

GOD give rule to human being for a reason.
GOD command us to pray for a reason.
GOD sent His representative for a reason.
GOD sent Guidence for a reason.
GOD create everything for a reason.
GOD sent sickness, health, wealth etc for a reason.

And when a person asks WHAT is this Reason, foolish people like you will say - God is testing us, correct?

If God needs to test us to know whether we are faithful (when He should know our hearts), then I could say such being is not God. :no:

Sickness, health, wealth and such comes from the good deeds we do and the bad deeds we have done to others. It is rewards or punishment in this world accordingly.

Praying alone when your heart is as black as the dark coal IS USELESS. Following someone who you have not meet, nor have he meet you OR knows anything about 21 Century IS IDIOTIC. And it is more idiotic to assume that not following a human respesentive in everything he does - from the way he brush his teeth all the way to the way he cleans himself WILL result in damnation in Hell for all eternity IS THE BIGGEST IDIOTIC STATEMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD.

We do not KNOW the reason clearly if we NOT believe in His Power.
We only KNOW the reason after we think and analyze every aspect of creation.

Hypocrite ... you say you think and analysse EVERY aspect of creation? When a non-Muslims give "salam" (hand in good gesture), you deny it by saying it is "haram" to receive it. THEN WHAT USE OF YOU TALKING CRAP ABOUT ANALSING ANYTHING? :agr:

GOD are the MOST POWERFUL and what I think, GOD do not need a EQUAL PARTIES to create everything.
He can CREATE and INTRUCT everything with just a Say.

Then you couldn't need Malaikats, now could you? You don't need those two malaikats who question you in a grave. Because by your statement - your god can do that on his own. Why doesn't he does that? ff:

ANGELS, EVIL, HUMAN, ANIMAL, LIVING THING, are all HIS Creation and ALL ARE HIS SLAVE.
No ONE can be Equal and Powerful as HIM.

That's the difference between your god and Mine. Mine do not hold others as Slaves. :no:
Slaves have no mind, slaves have no thoughts and slaves can only fear their Master; they will not love them.

Fittingly, Muslims FEAR their god. We LOVE our God.
You day dream about his rewards and pleasure he could give you for your enslavement.
We dream of NOTHING except Him alone.
That is the difference between you and I.
That is the difference between faithful and faithless.

He Create Living Thing and Give Guidence to prevent mischief in Universe.
Hmph ... Yet some religion followers claims some "devils" cause them to sin AFTER sinning. ;)

FROM MY THINKING, I Believe GOD exist. And ISLAM(submission to ONENESS GOD) teach everything.

In my opinion - Muslims have no God for they do not know who God is. :no:

               

by Oreng   

It seems that Seph have proven god exist by sculpting an image. What a fantastic way to cheat himself.  

A foolish man who sins day and night, then cleanse after himself by fooling himself everyday by praying is telling me that I'm cheating myself. Cute. ;)

i212

by Seph
And what is wrong with what Barney said. It makes perfect sense to me. Even children who lost their parents still wonders about them.

Did children that wonders about their parent create illustration and say "Its my parent photo" even they do not know the real face?
Maybe you do it..

by Seph
How do you know God exists? That is the question here ... not whether one needs to illustrate His image or bow down to a statue. Basic question itself is - HOW do you know God exists?

How do i know God exists?

How do you know people MIND exists?
You cant see it but you know It exist because you can think.

how do I know God exist?
I see HIS creation and from that I Know He exists.

A chair have the creator. How about living thing?

by Seph
If God do not show Himself, then what good is God?

You cant see your mind, then what good is your mind?

by Seph
n Old Testament, He had shown Himself (or signs from Him) to His prophets and people around the prophet by producing water, spliting the Red Sea, changing staff to snake and such. Suddenly, you going to say He is being so secretive?

Showing His power doest mean He Show Himself.
GOD show all the miracle just to show He exists.
GOD dont show His Image.

by Seph
If God needs to test us to know whether we are faithful (when He should know our hearts), then I could say such being is not God.

When you live happy everafter, do you believe GOD?
God give test to make people think and not forget about Him.
Why we need exam in our school? Think.
Human forget.

by Seph
Sickness, health, wealth and such comes from the good deeds we do and the bad deeds we have done to others. It is rewards or punishment in this world accordingly.

Yes, its punihsment and rewards.
But how come a very religious person and good deeds person also Sick?

by Seph
Praying alone when your heart is as black as the dark coal IS USELESS. Following someone who you have not meet, nor have he meet you OR knows anything about 21 Century IS IDIOTIC. And it is more idiotic to assume that not following a human respesentive in everything he does - from the way he brush his teeth all the way to the way he cleans himself WILL result in damnation in Hell for all eternity IS THE BIGGEST IDIOTIC STATEMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD.

kharr.. kharr.. kharr..
Where you learn if a Muslim not brush teeth like Prophet Muhammad result in damnation in Hell?
Misled Cult?

by Seph
Hypocrite ... you say you think and analysse EVERY aspect of creation? When a non-Muslims give "salam" (hand in good gesture), you deny it by saying it is "haram" to receive it. THEN WHAT USE OF YOU TALKING CRAP ABOUT ANALSING ANYTHING?

Another dont know what source or religion you are refferin.
In islam,
- There is no HARAM to shake hand with non-muslim as long as they are in same sex.
- Muslim can go to NON-MUSLIM funeral and give respect as long as they not bow to the statue or chanting with Non-Muslim.

Do you learn Islam in good source? or you learn from Al-Arqam?

by Seph
Then you couldn't need Malaikats, now could you? You don't need those two malaikats who question you in a grave. Because by your statement - your god can do that on his own. Why doesn't he does that?

When GOD can create everything, why not He create something that can control HIS creation.

by Seph
That's the difference between your god and Mine. Mine do not hold others as Slaves.
Slaves have no mind, slaves have no thoughts and slaves can only fear their Master; they will not love them.

GOD Slave in ISLAM faith not like HUMAN Slave.

GOD slave means we Respect HIS creation, HIS Law, His Command and show our gratitude to HIM and show our Love to HIM.

by Seph
Hmph ... Yet some religion followers claims some "devils" cause them to sin AFTER sinning.

Devils will ask people to do mischief. Its their promise to GOD.
People that not have proper believe and faith are the most vulnerable by their mission.

Devils "ajak" human do mischeif everytime. Its up to that person to recieve the thing or not.

by Seph
In my opinion - Muslims have no God for they do not know who God is.

Actually, Muslim do not need to SEE GOD FACES or IMAGE before we believe.
Only NON_MUSLIM need to see somet sculpture of illustration in order to believe GOD Exists.
I wonder if they dont have those thing. DID they believe in GOD?


I asking you.. Why you need Statue or IDOL as a Illustration of GOD before you need to Believe that GOD exists?
Do you see GOD real faces?

Oreng

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2-11-2006 12:35 PM
A foolish man who sins day and night, then cleanse after himself by fooling himself everyday by praying is telling me that I'm cheating myself.  

But the entity that require me to pray is not a cheat... unlike you who craft the idol then you imgine as if the idol talk to you.. that is more foolish.. go to something less foolish, baby

[ Last edited by  Oreng at 2-11-2006 01:54 PM ]

kan kalau nampak baju melayu yang cantik, kita tanya siapa yang jahit.

kan kalau nampak manusia, mesti ada penciptanya,

kenapa tuhan ada ? sebab kalau tiada tuhan, tiadalah alam ini.

rurouni_khairul

I believe the question here revolves on the concept of reality. Reality is what the ears hears, the eyes sees and then the mind believed. The problems is the visions we saw, the sounds we heard are nothing more that just waves of atoms and it's becomes a reality because our brain tell so. Do i need to see the air in order to believe Oxygen exists? Do i need to see 'pain' if my hand was cut? It's not visible but it's there and i don't need to make an idol or scripture of it in order to strengthen my faith, i just need to believed.

Peace.

barney50

1. responded by rurouni_khairul:I believe the question here revolves on the concept of reality. Reality is what the ears hears, the eyes sees and then the mind believed. The problems is the visions we saw, the sounds we heard are nothing more that just waves of atoms and it's becomes a reality because our brain tell so. Do i need to see the air in order to believe Oxygen exists? Do i need to see 'pain' if my hand was cut? It's not visible but it's there and i don't need to make an idol or scripture of it in order to strengthen my faith, i just need to believed.
   

Copy the Code

Believe and Faith! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Tell me my friend why do Musim peform the haj and circle around the Kaaba, kiss the black stone and throw stone at pillars believing them to be devils. And not forgetting sacrificing camels as I believe Mohammed scarificed 100 camels on his last trip to Mecca .. Why do Muslim peform all these acts? Can you please explain to the best of your knowledge in Islam? After that we'll discuss about idol and so on.

anta

Originally posted by barney50 at 2-11-2006 10:01 PM
Believe and Faith! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Tell me my friend why do Musim peform the haj and circle around the Kaaba, kiss the black stone and throw stone at pillars believing them to be devils. And not forgetting sacrificing camels as I believe Mohammed scarificed 100 camels on his last trip to Mecca .. Why do Muslim peform all these acts? Can you please explain to the best of your knowledge in Islam? After that we'll discuss about idol and so on.

Allah says, [That they may witness things that are of benefit to them] (Al-Hajj 22:28). The benefits of Hajj are both worldly and religious (spiritual). With regards to the religious benefits, the one who goes for Hajj earns the pleasure of his Lord and comes back with all his sins forgiven. He also earns immense reward that he cannot earn in any other place; one prayer in the Sacred Mosque in Makkah, for instance, is equal to a hundred thousand prayers elsewhere, and Tawaf (circumambulation of the Ka`bah) and Sa`i (pacing between As-Safa and Al-Marwah) cannot be done anywhere else. Other benefits include meeting other Muslims and discussing their circumstances, meeting scholars and learning from them and asking them about one抯 problems. Whereas the worldly benefits include trade and business, as well as other kinds of earnings that have to do with Hajj.

Furthermore, there are many virtues of the rituals of Hajj and there is much wisdom to be found behind them. Whoever is blessed with proper understanding of them is blessed with much goodness. For example:

When a person travels to perform the rites of Hajj, he is reminded of his journey to Allah and the Hereafter. When he travels, he leaves behind his dear friends, wife, children, and homeland, and the journey to the Hereafter is similar.

The one who goes on this trip equips himself with enough provisions to help him reach the sacred land, so let him remember that for his journey to his Lord, he needs to have sufficient provisions to help him get there safely, as well. Regarding this, Allah says, [And take provision, but indeed, the best provision is taqwa (fear of Allah)] (Al-Baqarah 2:197).

Traveling is a kind of torment and the same is true, but on a larger scale, of the journey to the Hereafter. Ahead of man there are the stages of passing away, the grave, the gathering, the accounting, the scales and As-Sirat (a bridge that will be laid across Hellfire, for people to pass over on the Day of Judgment), followed by either Paradise or Hell. The blessed one will be the one whom Allah saves.

When the pilgrim puts on the two garments of his ihram, he cannot help but be reminded of the shroud in which he will be wrapped after he dies. This prompts him to give up disobedience and misdeeds. Just as he gives up his regular clothing for Hajj, likewise he has to give up sins. Just as he has put on two clean, white garments, he has to make his heart clean and pure, and guard his senses so they remain clean and pure, uncontaminated by the stains of sins and disobedience.

When he says 揕abbayk, Allahumma, labbayk (Here I am at your service, O Allah, here I am)

Sephiroth

by i212   

Did children that wonders about their parent create illustration and say "Its my parent photo" even they do not know the real face?
Maybe you do it..  

Hellow, EVERYONE does it. Only Muslims so ignorant that they think they don't. ;)

And yes, Children do create illustration of what THEY THINK their parents could look like, regardless of what they look like in the real life. Why? I don't know ... maybe they want to hold on something physical when they cannot hold onto their parents.

How do i know God exists?
Yes, how do you know God exists? What's your proof?

You cant see it but you know It exist because you can think.
So you're mindless when you are born? Because new born babies don't think - they react to physical changes like hunger by associating with other physical aspect - crying. They don't think - If I cry, mommy going to give me milk.

And brain dead people who are comatose, you can do anything to their body but they won't react. Are you saying that they have no mind and that they are dead?

I see HIS creation and from that I Know He exists.

Yet the same people who claims that they could see God in creation, DAMNS the creation itself by cutting down trees, polluting rivers, killing animals for food and even each other for stupid ideology. You know nothing about God because you have no God. :no:

A chair have the creator. How about living thing?

You can sit anywhere you want - even on the floor. What is the use of chair then? ;)
What is the use of humans with so-called consciousness when other lifeforms also have the same features?

You cant see your mind, then what good is your mind?

I told you what ... I don't believe the Mind as True. Mind is False. Are you saying by this logic, God is false also? ;)

Showing His power doest mean He Show Himself.
GOD show all the miracle just to show He exists.
GOD dont show His Image.

Wrong ... if God can show power and miracles, He can show His image. IF a god doesn't do that, then perhaps he is not the one who does the miracles but claims credit for another? ALL things must be questioned - EVEN GOD. Moses questioned God, Arjuna questioned God, and in both examples, God answered. Why is your god so secretative now?

When you live happy everafter, do you believe GOD?
God give test to make people think and not forget about Him.
Why we need exam in our school? Think.
Human forget.

Difference between your god and school is, if you failed in school, you don't damned in hell for all eternity. ;)
Threatening man with hell for his forgetfulness is way of your god?
Then your Adam and Eve should be in hell for his forgetfulness, alone with the rest of his brood.

Yes, its punihsment and rewards.
But how come a very religious person and good deeds person also Sick?

Sorry, my belief do not revolve around foolish notion of punishment and reward; it revolves around Karma and Redemption.

Where you learn if a Muslim not brush teeth like Prophet Muhammad result in damnation in Hell?
Misled Cult?

You're the one in the misled cult. Go and look in Muslim world and you will see how many people trying hard to mimic Muhammad. From the size of his beard all the way to how Muhammad screws women. ;)

In islam,
- There is no HARAM to shake hand with non-muslim as long as they are in same sex.
- Muslim can go to NON-MUSLIM funeral and give respect as long as they not bow to the statue or chanting with Non-Muslim.

Hmph ... don't lie. I have heard enough in MM column how wishing non-Muslims is not allowed in Islam. Do you take me for a fool? :agr:

Do you learn Islam in good source? or you learn from Al-Arqam?

I learn from you jokers. Are you in Al Arqam? ;)

When GOD can create everything, why not He create something that can control HIS creation.

That is not the question. Question here is ... why can't your god do things on his own? Why must he need malaikats like the two who question the dead in the grave?

GOD Slave in ISLAM faith not like HUMAN Slave.

You are human and you behave like a Slave. A Slave IS a Slave. You do not need to pride yourself in calling yourself God's slave or your wife's slave. Slave IS a Slave.

GOD slave means we Respect HIS creation, HIS Law, His Command and show our gratitude to HIM and show our Love to HIM.


Hmph ... Muslims cannot even respect other humans beings, you want to talk about respecting God's creation. ;)
Bunch of hypocrites.

Devils "ajak" human do mischeif everytime. Its up to that person to recieve the thing or not.

Sorry, I don't believe in Devils influencing men. :no:

I asking you.. Why you need Statue or IDOL as a Illustration of GOD before you need to Believe that GOD exists?
Do you see GOD real faces?  

No one can see God's real face. We can only imagine it.

Obersliutenant

you should take up semionology( semiotics) really Seph, only then you will understand how symbols, texts, and other forms of representation of meaning willl always contradict one another, especially if it is the work of man's own hands.  Mortal representation of God in tangible form will always be a flawed context out of orbit...

Seeing Does not necessarily equate to believing . If God is visible, then everyone will subject His Almighty to different representation of what he may be or what he might look like. In this case, he would be vulnurable to human imagination...where  People will either uplift Him or degrade Him. There is no control in imagination, and there s both positive and negative, and to represent God ( which you admit you cant See) in such a form of statues, pictures and stuff , such illustrations will only fall prey to both negative and positive representations as they will engage in conflict . Because the polictis of meaning is an ever existing reality of our weak limited mortal state of mind,here is where you will have people fighting each other on how God Should look like . Because realistically a symbol , or a picture  brings different meanings to different people.

[ Last edited by  Obersliutenant at 3-11-2006 09:41 AM ]

this is the difference,

we debate, we explain, we try to reason, we dont write "Stupid buddhist", we dont write "stupid hindus"

seph writes stupid muslim, barney always mocks the prophet.

the more both of you write and insults, the more people are converting to Islam from reading your posts.

thank you

barney50

My dear Obersliutenant,

In reality people are fighting each other on how God Should look like. The Muslims calim GOD is formless, nameless and powerless. On the other hand Christians claim GOD came in the form of Jesus. But the most unique religon in the world is Hinduism which says GOD is with form and without form. You surmise the meaning of it now.

Obersliutenant

Barney,

i beg to differ with your explaination that Allah is powerless & Nameless,

For which He has 99 names

He Has Power otherwise Muslims wouldnt refer him as 'Almighty',

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 3-11-2006 12:05 PM
Barney,

i beg to differ with your explaination that Allah is powerless & Nameless,

For which He has 99 names

He Has Power otherwise Muslims wouldnt refer him as 'Almighty',

No, your god is powerless. :no:

He cannot even reveal himself to the people, and just to one individual - Muhammad and Muslims must believe what Muhammad said to be saved. ;)

Your god cannot do things on his own, have to create other beings to do things for him AND YET muslims calls him powerful who could create the universe in a single word. Right (sarcasm). ;)

Your god have 99 names while mine have NONE. Who gave your god names? Did your god named himself this and that?

My God did not name Himself BUT ALLOWED others to name Him - first form of Symbolic Representation. Moses named Him - Yahweh - the Eternal One, yet Yahweh is not His name, just as Attributes. In Hindusm, you can find several names which the Sages named Him in similar way.

Your god calls himself "Almighty" but he cannot even save Muslims for the past 1,400 years from living like animals. Millions perish every year due to hunger in Africa, idiots like Osama and Ahmedinijab spent millions making weapons and waging war when they can spent for their people AND idiots like you daydream of 72 prostitutes. Where's your god now? I don't see a god in Muslims society anywhere. :no:

[ Last edited by  Sephiroth at 3-11-2006 12:43 PM ]

barney50

1. responded by Obersliutenant :Barney,
   
2. 
   
3. i beg to differ with your explaination that Allah is powerless & Nameless,
   
4. 
   
5. For which He has 99 names
   
6. 
   
7. He Has Power otherwise Muslims wouldnt refer him as 'Almighty',

Copy the Code

The 99 names you mentioned, was it told by Allah or given by man? But looks like such attributes in Islam are limited whereas we have 1008 names memorised and resited in Temples all over the world everyday. Imagine praising GOD every morning, afternoon and evening all throughout 365 days a year. You say Allah has power but you do not believe HE could take a form instead you ask why should HE. That is not for you to know or for us to question GOD. That is why I said Muslims believe GOD is powerless.