Just curious: A Large Old Tree & Temple

Jukebox

Not intended to disrespect in relation to my question.....

I'm always curious why normally there'a always a large/medium sized and old tree nearby to a hindu temple/place or worship?

Thanks in advance

[ Last edited by  fleurzsa at 22-9-2006 10:47 AM ]

Sephiroth

Something wrong about having trees inside temples? :stp:

Big trees usually home for birds and such, therefore,not cut down.

Jukebox

If you put it that way then there's nothing wrong with it......

Curious because i've seen the roof of the temple being construsted around an old tree, the temple is actually surounding the tree.

Tthere was this 'semambu' tree at wangsa maju that is being kept and cared for by an old hindu lady. She hangs strings of flowers on the tree branches and erected a foot tall fence around the tree. 'Semambu' leaves are good in curing small pox, so neighbours often ask for them from the old lady and she has this rule that the leaves can only be taken before 7pm.

Any idea why the 'semambu' tree seemed to be sacred?

Sephiroth

There are a few "sacred" trees in Hindusm, many of them is because they hold curative and restorative abilities.

Neem trees are very useful for smallpox, which was a major killer in India villages in the past (and now).

There is special fruit and vegetable tree (cannot prounce the name properly) which important to them also. It's long and produce fruit which they put in curry. You may have eaten it before - small leaves which cooked deep fried.

Manggo trees are important also. Not sure why though. And finally, lime trees (limau kasturi). Did you know that this tree said to stop evil spirits from coming into the house?

Jukebox

Thanks for the explanation.....didn't know abt the 'limau kasturi' by the way

Sephiroth

Many of the Hindus who came to Malaysia were from farmers. And they brought their own belief and knowledge which is different from India's Hindus (which lies heavily in belief in Ariscrotacs (bangsawan)).

Jukebox

Meaning to say, in terms of believe it vary from level of caste?
Does this believe heavily associated to the religion or just plain simple believe that has been passed on from generation to generation?

Also do some of these beleives are against the hindu religion just like some of the malay believes that are against the islamic religion (in comparison that is)

Sephiroth

by Jukebox   

Meaning to say, in terms of believe it vary from level of caste?

Since 90% of the Hindus coming here are from the same "Caste" (farmers) and some merchants, the caste problem in Malaysia is not that heavy (unfortunately for Malaysian Tamil drama industry ). And that, with presence of Malays and Chinese intermingling with each other in daily basis, it seems Caste is focused within a person's house alone.

In 1948 when India got her independance, one of the changes Mahatma Gandhi suggested was to eliminate the Caste from Government forms. I was told that to THIS DAY, that doesn't happen and in India, caste is still problem because individuals who thinks highly about their own caste will take it outside their homes and demand others to acknowledge it.

It's common trait among many Indians (even in Malaysia). It's like some people demanding respect from you when they do not deserve it. In India, it is common problem because everyone thinks highly about themselves (wants respect) but in Malaysia, this sort of attitude is called "Kampung (Village) Attitude", since people who lives in village (last time) are less educated.

Does this believe heavily associated to the religion or just plain simple believe that has been passed on from generation to generation?

Most of it are beliefs brought in by the community. Being farmers who lives by land, they attend to increase higher expectation of certain crops which can support them (especially during famine and droughts) and protect them (from dangerous diseases like Malaria which was main killer in India in the past and when they migrate to Malaya back in 1920s ~ 1930s).

Also do some of these beleives are against the hindu religion just like some of the malay believes that are against the islamic religion (in comparison that is)  

Well ... one cannot says this belief is against Hindusm because Hindusm is wide scoped. One can only say whether it is USEFUL or NOT USEFUL to daily lives.

For example, no matter how much Hindus in Malaysia revers cows and certain trees, it will look outdated to city dwelling Hindus, right? I heard that most Hindus in Kuala Lumpur city never even seen a live cow.

Jukebox

Seph...

You've answered my curiosity and more.....thanks

hamizao

And that, with presence of Malays and Chinese intermingling with each other in daily basis, it seems Caste is focused within a person's house alone.

How, Sephi?

Sephiroth

by hamizao   

How, Sephi?

How what? How did Chinese and Malays managed to reduce Caste problem in Malaya?

In India, everyone are Hindus (or called themselves Hindus). And one of the main problems with Hindus (no offence attended) is that they have a huge pride and ego which makes them hard to accept something is amiss with them.

In India, most people will bring food from their homes, cooked by their own families. They will eat alone and do not share, and most of them do not eat out unless it is special occassion or in a hurry, or somewhere like MacD or KFC.

Caste found itself even in education system; if you remember properly, there was a riot a few months ago after the Indian Government have announced that they will increase the number of university intake for lower caste.

However, compared to Indians in India, Indians in Malaya during 1930s to now have a huge problem following this. Estate workers do bring food from home but most working in office and such found themselves unable to do so in long run. They are force to eat in Malay or Chinese foodstalls and usually in accompany of other races. This forced intermingling had made them open up their views and learn about others and slowly, their difference begins to die away.

In Educational field, all three race have to send their children to the same school, wearing the same uniform, intermingling with each other, learning the same stuff like history and all. This created a sort of foundation for future generations which grown up, knowing each other (which is something India had failed to do - especially since there is over 20 different "sub-race" and over 100 languages, I have read somewhere).

Even today, I have noticed that Indian Youth STILL have problem opening up to others. I have went to forums and discussed with them. They have a great concern over their nation but they themselves have problem opening up. They do not venture outside Asia (NO, I'm NOT talking about migrating to USA or Europe here) but more toward getting to know other countries in Asia.

In 1970s, Malaysia stopped relying on the West for education and technology and begins to intermingle with other Asian countries like Japan and Korea. Result is what we see today. However, to this day, India still rely on the West and still have problem turning toward their Asian brothers. When India President, Abdul Kalam came to a visit a few month ago, he went to Singapore but never step foot on Malaysia, he went to Philiphines but never visit Japan or Korea. WHY? Because Singapore and Philiphines is where American (and the Western) influence exist and Indians in typical attitude do not seem to trust other Asians. This is my personal opinion and I was a bit upset with his (President Abdul Kalam's) actions. :hmm:

Many Indians in India doesn't seems to know how much disadvantage there is in relying on USA and Euroope. For one thing, India WILL NEVER progress by relying in USA and Europe.

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American

[Qoute]
The U.S. Census of 2000 counted 1.679 million people in the category "Asian Indian", accounting for 0.60% of the total U.S. population. This was an increase of 105.87% from the U.S. Census of 1990 with annual growth averaging 7.6%, the largest growth in the Asian American community. In 2000, Indian Americans comprised 16.4% of the Asian American community, making them the third largest subgroup of Asian Americans, after Chinese Americans and Filipino Americans. [1]

According to the 2000 U.S. Census Indian Americans have the highest median income of any national origin group in the U.S. ($60,093), and Merrill Lynch recently revealed that there are nearly 200,000 Indian American millionaires. One in every nine Indians in the US is a millionaire, comprising 10% of US millionaires. (Source: 2003 Merrill Lynch SA Market Study).

This affluence has been matched by a high degree of educational attainment. Indians have the highest educational qualifications of all national origin groups in the US. According to the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, there are close to 41,000 Indian American doctors. According to the 2000 census, about 64% of Asian Indians in the U.S. have attained a Bachelor's degree or more.[4](compared to 28% nationally). Almost 40% of all Indians have a master抯, doctorate or other professional degree, which is five times the national average. (Source: The Indian American Centre for Political Awareness.)

These high levels of education have enabled Indian Americans to become a productive segment of the American population, with 72.3% participating in the U.S. work force, of which 57.7% are employed in managerial and professional specialties[5]. Indians own 50% of all economy lodges and 35% of all hotels in the US, which have a combined market value of almost $40 billion. (Source: Little India Magazine). A University of California, Berkeley, study reported that one-third of the engineers in Silicon Valley are of Indian descent, while 7% of valley hi-tech firms are led by Indian CEOs. (Source: Silicon India Readership Survey)
[/Qoute]

1 in 9 Indians in America are millionaire, but in India, it is still one of the most poor country in the World with a surprising steady growth in economic. There is a significant gap between poor and the rich and there is a large amount of corruption in its system. India even made no. 2 in AIDS list, only second to Africa.

WHY? Because the people who get education from India system takes their degrees and expertise, run to USA (and Europe) and make themselves rich there, leaving India in poverty. It is an poor investment - the Indian Government educated them but they sell themselves short elsewhere.

hamizao

Sephi...I mean how do they (Hindus) practise caste system in their own house? Is it practised when two families meet in their homes ? As you said they no longer ask other people outside their homes(Malays, Chinese or Indians)  to respect their caste/them.

In India, most people will bring food from their homes, cooked by their own families. They will eat alone and do not share, and most of them do not eat out unless it is special occassion or in a hurry, or somewhere like MacD or KFC.

Are you saying this is a caste behaviour?

However, compared to Indians in India, Indians in Malaya during 1930s to now have a huge problem following this. Estate workers do bring food from home but most working in office and such found themselves unable to do so in long run. They are force to eat in Malay or Chinese foodstalls and usually in accompany of other races. This forced intermingling had made them open up their views and learn about others and slowly, their difference begins to die away.

I don't think they were actually "forced" . Am more inclined to believe their life style changed .....perhaps mothers no longer had the time to cook their meal to take to the office....But I would say that since nobody else in Malaysia care about this caste system, it did help the Hindus to change their mind set in some ways.

Anyway I do hear that some families are still rather clanish and materialistc.

hamizao

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 23-8-2006 12:39 PM
There are a few "sacred" trees in Hindusm, many of them is because they hold curative and restorative abilities.

Neem trees are very useful for smallpox, which was a major killer in In ...

Is there really such thing as "tree worshippers'"amongst Hindus? ...Just remembered reading it somewhere.

Sephiroth

by hamizao   

Sephi...I mean how do they (Hindus) practise caste system in their own house? Is it practised when two families meet in their homes ? As you said they no longer ask other people outside their homes(Malays, Chinese or Indians)  to respect their caste/them.

Caste is Ego, it is not a practise. :no:

All belief that an individual, family or group is above others is Ego. Even Brahmins were considered "Above" simply because they were given tasks of taking care of the temple, temple grounds and such. If they do not perform their task BUT pride themselves for being Brahmin, then they are sinful of boasting and being egoistic.

Same goes for Hindu families. Inside their own homes, they could do all sort of practise and rituals, by stating that they are this Caste and that Caste. But outside, if they bring that attitude, then they are being egoistic.

Personally, I have several incidents where some Hindu colleaques feels uncomfortable sharing simple thing as food at the office, even in Malaysia.

Are you saying this is a caste behaviour?

Yup, unlike in Malaysia where eating in Mamak store is a second nature to most Malaysians, but in India, this still yet to become a habit. Many Indians, especially in the North section, do not eat anywhere else, except by food brought from home.

Anyway I do hear that some families are still rather clanish and materialistc.  
Being materialistic is normal nature for Mankind, not Hindus alone. :no:

Is there really such thing as "tree worshippers'"amongst Hindus? ...Just remembered reading it somewhere.  

Not very sure ... I could say "Yes". :hmm:

hamizao

Caste is Ego, it is not a practise

.

OK, I can understand that. As a matter of fact this "feeling of exclusiveness" may be present in any culture though not necessarily representative of their religious beliefs. it is just the way they have been brought up.......also no contact with other mindsets.

Yup, unlike in Malaysia where eating in Mamak store is a second nature to most Malaysians, but in India, this still yet to become a habit. Many Indians, especially in the North section, do not eat anywhere else, except by food brought from home.

Personally, I have several incidents where some Hindu colleaques feels uncomfortable sharing simple thing as food at the office, even in Malaysia.

I can understand why one prefers to bring food from one's home and not eating out. Since you highlighted this behaviour of the Hindus in Malaysia, many of whom were descendents of the farmer  caste, I would attribute it to being frugal. Those days were not easy times.....even my grandpa, so my mum said, would always have his meal at home and he was no Hindu. As it turned out he had more savings than his boss!

However, not sharing what you have eg. food in the office....is another thing. I have had staff who were Hindus and Sikhs and I did not see this behaviour. Although they were not all that well off, they were very generous which in some ways reciprocated the behaviour of the other staff ........you see we always share especially come Raya, Deepavali , Kung Hee Fatt Chai and so on.....sure got ole2 one...

So, if a person doesn't share his/her food these days, I reckon there are other underlying factors. I cannot perceive it as being ego nor caste behaviour.

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 10-9-2006 01:02 AM ]

Sephiroth

by hamizao   

OK, I can understand that. As a matter of fact this "feeling of exclusiveness" may be present in any culture though not necessarily representative of their religious beliefs. it is just the way they have been brought up.......also no contact with other mindsets.

There's a saying by Shakespeare (Hamlet) - "I live in a nutshell but think myself as king of infinite".

Same here, Indians, especially in India lives in a confined shell - within India itself. They are too scared to venture outside and only place they know are their former "Masters" - England. From there, USA and maybe a few other European countries.

So far, India have no social ventures and cooperations with other Asian countries, only trade and business-related matters which is very disappointing. It is almost as if India is hiding the fact of it's political and social failure to its people by hiding their views of the other nations in Asia. :hmm:

However, not sharing what you have eg. food in the office....is another thing. I have had staff who were Hindus and Sikhs and I did not see this behaviour. Although they were not all that well off, they were very generous which in some ways reciprocated the behaviour of the other staff ........you see we always share especially come Raya, Deepavali , Kung Hee Fatt Chai and so on.....sure got ole2 one...

Celebration food and cookies are different from what you eat daily. Some of them even buy it from stores especially for the celebration. I'm talking about people who bring in food on daily basis.

So, if a person doesn't share his/her food these days, I reckon there are other underlying factors. I cannot persieve it as being ego nor caste behaviour.  

Maybe that because you don't see into the heart of people you meet and interact. :hmm:
Anyway, food is just one example. There are others which I have to check one at a time.

hamizao

Celebration food and cookies are different from what you eat daily. Some of them even buy it from stores especially for the celebration. I'm talking about people who bring in food on daily basis.

I wouldn't be too wound up about food cooked in their own home though.........

Maybe that because you don't see into the heart of people you meet and interact.
Anyway, food is just one example. There are others which I have to check one at a time.

Aah....., a simple approach will do for me though. Trying to look into people's heart may cause you to judge people.

Sephiroth

by hamizao   

Aah....., a simple approach will do for me though. Trying to look into people's heart may cause you to judge people.

You attend to judge people whether you can see into their hearts or not. That's nature of humans.

hamizao

I am tempted to further share my thoughts and findings on the behaviourial aspect of the caste. BTW Sephi, you promised to give further illustrations.

In another  thread I recall a forumner upholding that the Brahmic tentacles were responsible for what goes on in the Hindu society ....slave mentality for one. He sited his observation. Here, you are also citing some observations on another Hindu behaviour. Whilst Sephi, you  had rationalised the presence of slave mentality there(in India) as it is also present elsewhere, you appear somewhat uncompromising when it comes to the attitude towards eating especially with regard to food cooked at home.

Would you agree that  people were (and probably still are) kept within the limits of duties and obedience by the system of caste and by the penal regulations attached to each phase of it. How the ancient law makers (Brahmin) achieved this was to attach some religious principle or object to every superstition. ( Ref:Abbe J A Dubois). As such the society became very regulated.

At this point I wish to bring to light of what appears to be the Hindu notion of purity. At the Brahmin level great number of minute and perhaps ridiculous precautions have been invented to prevent defilement of their persons, clothes, furniture, temple etc..etc...It is said that such ineradicable prejudice arising had placed an insurmountable barrier between them and the rest of mankind. Apparently their religious tenets demand that they keep themselves aloof from everyone who does not share their belief. Unfortunately, other Hindus are thought to have picked up similar prejudice. Brahmins keep their kitchen door shut to avoid strangers , profane or unclean person from entering or cast an eye on the earthware inside hence rendering them unclean. Eating manners are extremely particular details of which I would not bother to mention. Eating food prepared by other castes is considered a defilement. The guilty(of other transgressions as well) would face banishment or expulsion from the caste. It appears that readmission into the caste  would require the person to undergo great ordeals to obtain purification.

Would it not therefore be an age old precaution too that Hindus do not offer food they cook to others nor eat food cooked by others .....tendency to persis into current time ?:hmm:

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 20-9-2006 10:46 PM ]

Sephiroth

Not sure about all this ... I for one have never face or seen such actions. Maybe they do in India. :hmm:

All I know is, purification comes from the Mind and Proper understanding of the Religion, not keeping the body clean alone (which is second important).

And besides, even if some Brahmins does this, they should understand that time has changed. In the past, Brahmin have to memorize the Vedas and teach it to the public. Nowadays, the Vedas is open for everyone to learn and the Gita is there for those who doesn't have access to the Vedas.

So what is the purpose of Brahmins? Simple - Educate those who do not understand the Vedas, especially by Living according to it and not simply concentrate in purifying oneself.