kelas programming for everyone

boyan

assalamualaikum korang.. and salam sejahtera...

first time contribute sini.. actually aku selalu lepak kat forum entrepreneur... tp since aku dah nak masuk bab2 teknikal... hehehe aku pun nak lepak sini gak kalau leh share2 pendapat ngan korang. probably ada gak yang dah kenal kut, in that case elo elo elo.

anyway aku tgh usahakan satu computer lab... dan aku nak ngajar ilmu2 programming dan apa2 development.. sambil tu maybe buat freelance tp tu citer lambat lagi.

kesimpulannya, aku tgk ramai org nak belajar programming, tp tak mampu/takde masa... takpun... maybe tak ramai org nak belajar... tp diaorg tak tahu betapa bestnye programming ni. last sekali, aku kadang2 sedih tgk IT major, ataupun CS major sendiri.. yang grad... masuk job interview... and kata... saya nak keje... tp kalau bole tamau programming.... aku heran nape government tak masukkan programming dalam syllabus sekolah.. etc.... aku dulu nak belajar programming masa sekolah, tp kene tunggu uni baru la belajar apa itu C ngan java.

computer lab ni ciput je, 10 komputer for starters. aku nak develop courseware2 yang aku rasa maybe useful untuk org2 nak belajar programming. courseware yang aku nak start mula2 is introduction to programming.

languange yang aku akan guna is Java. probably aku amik masa tiga bulan / 12 weeks untuk run through the whole course. one session 2 1/2 hours, and probably once or twice every week. tu aku lom decide lagi.

very roughly, syllabus kasar course ni is basically

1) programming syntax and statements
2) variables and operators
3) control flow (if, for, while bla bla)
4) arrays
5) functions
6) user I/O and file I/O
7) small menu-based library application.. buat user account.. pinjam buku.. pulang buku.. write to flat file database.. get user input for traversing menu.. etc...

aku ingat nak fit OOP dalam ni.... tp aku maybe kene masukkan tu dalam the next class nanti.. intermediate programming kelas...  kalau aku buat twice a week maybe leh fit.... keep in mind these are not full time students cam college students... tp budak2 sekolah and working adults.. that's why aku takleh cram sangat...

target market aku.. budak2 sekolah menengah.. ataupun adults yang nak carik benda lain nak buat other than swimming/tennis/language classes.... ataupun budak IPTA sendiri... tp budak college2 ni aku rasa they have too much on their hands already...

objektif aku... so that org bole program simple programs bile diaorg dah pass module ni.. and bole program on their on...

dan aku akan kembangkan.. buat module2 lain seperti intermediate programming (ajar pasal OOP, data structure, algorithms, threads etc)... or maybe web application development guna Tomcat + J2EE... or maybe linux user course... linux admin course... possibility is endless.. keyword here is it is for everyone... aku tanak buat 5-day 2K plus courses yang mahal dan probably you won't remember much after a while...

soalan aku... ape pendapat korang pasal idea ni? ada pape nak tambah... and also... untuk kelas yang aku explain kat atas... berapa patut aku charge?

thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu :tq::tq::tq:

[ Last edited by  boyan at 1-7-2006 06:10 PM ]

digitalgunner

Bagi aku idea ko ni ok dah...tp just nk share experience aku mengajar budak skolah menengah buat programming utk budak2 class IT kat skolah adek aku...aku rase utk ajar course programming cm ni...memule skali ko kene bagi org paham mengenai programming tu sendiri...ramai org berpendapat programming ni pasal coding,language ngn syntax...ko kene try ubah mind set tu dulu...ko kene bagi diorang grab btul2 concept2 dlm programming...mase aku mengajar dulu susah nk bg budak2 tu sume paham sbb mase cikgu ajar kt skolah suruh hafal coding...hasil nye murid2 sume x reti buat programming...yang diorang tau hafal je...kalo suruh ubah sket...diorang x bleh buat...

instict of teaching those you can get in the reference book, why not you teach the real world issue of programming? Like talking bout a project/system in the class, teaching what you should consider when you designing a system for a certain purpose, cox for different type of system you have to consider different type of things. Of course, you might need to teach some simple basic as well as some of them found that they cant understand what the reference book said.

boyan

Originally posted by digitalgunner at 3-7-2006 11:35 AM
Bagi aku idea ko ni ok dah...tp just nk share experience aku mengajar budak skolah menengah buat programming utk budak2 class IT kat skolah adek aku...aku rase utk ajar course programming cm ni...m ...

yup actually memang aku pun sependapat ngan ko.. contohnye... kalau dah dapat the 'essence' of programming... actually it doesn't matter what language u use... u can learn and adapat... bcos in the end semuanya sama... for loop... if else.. while.... boolean operators... basically kita abstract away....

aku tak setuju gak dengan menghafal2... especially syntax... adeh cukup tak membantu.. cara aku struktur the class.. aku tekankan pada praktikal....

satu session 2 1/2 jam... aku akan reserve 45 minit untuk buat coding on the spot supaya bole terus test teori tadi.. e.g kalau aku ajar for loop, then terus tunjuk dan suruh student buat coding..

dalam 2 3 session terakhir.. aku dah tak ngajar.. instead diaorg datang for lab.. and diaorg datang untuk code... tu je.... takde paper exam.. aku tak percaya paper exam... the best sign of success is a working, clean code yang apply balik semua benda yang diaorg belajar....

boyan

Originally posted by eddom at 3-7-2006 12:00 PM
instict of teaching those you can get in the reference book, why not you teach the real world issue of programming? Like talking bout a project/system in the class, teaching what you should conside ...

well i will use several sources... and of the the reference book.. and i will also draw upon whatever i've learnt and experienced....

it's yes and no. we can try inculcate simple best practices... as in don't write a 200 line function, don't do 8 nested for loops, use constants instead of hardcoded values..

but if it's more of a higher level thingy.. like say project management.. how to effectively design a large slace coding project... then it's a no.. cos this is just a beginner class...

tq for your input!

Ameenya

Hi boyan,

Ni boyan ke bolan ni...
My response is kat malaysia ni, jarang la jumpa orang yang memang love programming macam kau. depa nak kerja senang je.. tp ok je kau proceed.. nanti aku boleh p belajar.

boyan

Originally posted by Ameenya at 3-7-2006 06:32 PM
Hi boyan,

Ni boyan ke bolan ni...
My response is kat malaysia ni, jarang la jumpa orang yang memang love programming macam kau. depa nak kerja senang je.. tp ok je kau proceed.. nanti aku boleh ...

tq ameenya... takdela.. aku tak hardcore pun. ramai lagi. cuma aku appreciate la programming dan org yang suka program. otak diaorg ni pelik sikit. hahaha. org yang 'bercakap' ngan mesin..

bagusla..... insyaAllah bile tempat aku dah setup aku announcekan... sementara tu kalau korang ada apa2 pendapat lain leh la utarakan.. mekasih2.....

alien3d

Buat consultation .TErus terang budak degree teruk sesangat.Budak master programming lagiler berlagak.CAkap bla.... tu dan ini,boleh buat sistem tu dan ini.Tapi bila nak suruh buat hello world pun tak tau.Most terror coding tak semestinya ada degree atau master like myself.
http://alien3d.dotgeek.org/pengatucaraan.swf
c c++ php cold fusion dan vb.net tutorial basic di dalam bahasa melayu
http://alien3d.dotgeek.org/oop.swf
Advance php cold fusion dan vb.net tutorial tapi dalam bahasa inggeris

Aku tak pernah hafal php,cold fusion atau vb.net function.Yang penting ada idea dan integeration dan also time management.Coding bukan pasal nak hafal function.Tetapi bagaimana nak memanipulasi kan data dan function.Aku fail bab hafal hafal ni.

digitalgunner

Originally posted by alien3d at 4-7-2006 06:27 PM
Buat consultation .TErus terang budak degree teruk sesangat.Budak master programming lagiler berlagak.CAkap bla.... tu dan ini,boleh buat sistem tu dan ini.Tapi bila nak suruh buat hello world pun  ...

Aku stuju ngn ko...ramai dak2 degree yg teruk programming ni...aku pun rase nye kalo x sbb family background mesti tergolong dlm golongan degree yg teruk programming ni...cume bagi aku...based on ape yg aku tgk dr kawan2 aku...yg teruk2 tu selalu nye x reti programming sbb x minat...amek bidang IT sbb x dpt offer bidang lain...tp utk golongan mcm ni...aku rase provide consultation pun x gune...diorang x minat...mmg diorang x de inisiatif pun nk majukan diri bab2 programming ni...rata2 target bile keje nk masuk management...

boyan

yup... aku setuju both ngan alien3d and digitalgunner on both points...

1) certain... or maybe ramai IT graduates yang teruk programming
2) diaorg teruk bcos they don't have the love for it in the first place

bagi aku.. kalau dah kes camni, and dah tamau buat programming... takleh buat ape la... sometimes ppl just tak suka... even aku pun tak suka buat something and u don't wanna do things u don't like.

but i believe ramai gak yang mystified by what programming is all about.. and these eager minds yang aku nak approach...

but in case someone yang used to come from IT, and wanted to relearn programming... of course i'd accept.. keyword here is motivation and enthusiasm.. that's all i need...

ng58339

Kes saya macam ni. Bulan ni saya sangat sibuk. Bulan depan saya ditugaskan mengajar Access Lanjutan utk kakitangan kerajaan. Bulan 9 hingga 12 kene mengajar program peningkatan kemahiran siswazah dalam pembangunan perisian. Masalahnya, tak tercapai masa nak pergi 3 kursus berikut:

1) SQL Server - System Administration
2) SQL Server - Database Design
3) ASP.Net

Kalau saya survey ketiga-tiga kursus ni makan 5 hari setiap satunya. SQL Server ni saya biasa buat table, views, cuma tak reti bab admin tu. ASP.Net tu pulak, saya cuma nak minta tolong ajarkan saya basic.. mula-mula nak buat ASP.Net tu cukuplah.. yang lain boleh catch up.

Jadi, ada tak you all tahu mana-mana training centre yang boleh ajar saya 2 hari utk setiap kursus ni sahaja. Kira customized la ni.

Atau you all sendiri boleh ajar, datang kat tempat kerja saya. Quote le berapa. Nanti saya tanya bos saya boleh ke tidak.

Pls help me. TQ.

LanoG

Originally posted by digitalgunner at 4-7-2006 08:49 PM


Aku stuju ngn ko...ramai dak2 degree yg teruk programming ni...aku pun rase nye kalo x sbb family background mesti tergolong dlm golongan degree yg teruk programming ni...cume bagi aku...based  ...

Tak setuju! Tak semua orang ada degree yang bangang pasal programming, sebab ada gak yang terrer. Diorang tu cuma lebih banyak buat benda2 lain yang kurang tertumpu bab2 membina programming. Lebih kepada planning  sebab kalo dah keje nanti, diorang suruh je budak2 dia buat kerja programming nie. Kalo dah ada master, bukan le diorang nak berlagak sebenarnya, cuma tu yang diorang tau. :jeling:

boyan

Originally posted by LanoG at 6-7-2006 01:02 PM


Tak setuju! Tak semua orang ada degree yang bangang pasal programming, sebab ada gak yang terrer. Diorang tu cuma lebih banyak buat benda2 lain yang kurang tertumpu bab2 membina programming. Le ...

tul tu lanog... of course kita takleh generalize org IT/CS sini very hollow and tak tau programming... ada yang terer of course.

ada gak yang tak terer jugak. biasala dalam mana2 bidang ada yang terer, and ada tak terer.

tp satu je la bile ko cakap pasal org yang cuba supervise programmer. kalau org tu sendiri tak bole nak appreciate programming, mungkin ada masalah. aku banyak jumpa IT managers, yang tak tahu what it takes to develop software, and they become very bad managers. mcm kalau ada problem bug, they give us 2 days to fix. masalahnye debug ni bukan bole estimate berapa lama nak betulkan. sebagai contohla.

and also managers yang takleh appreciate code complexity, and maybe just assume from XXX lines of code = 10 hari. and then dia set schedule supaya siap dalam sekian2 hari, sebab dia budget module tu sekian2 line.

yang menarik pasal programming ni, it's not engineering - e.g kita bole kira precisely berapa berat bangunan ni and structural beam dia kene tebal mana nak support. a lot of programming estimations are still derived from experience. that's why, org kata programming is an art!

itiknila

Aku rasa benda programming ni macam bola. Striker letak jadi goal keeper sure tak tertangkap bola. Defender hantar jadi striker, tak masuk lak bola dalam gol. Coach jadi midfielder, belum tentu boleh main.

Semua ada part masing-masing. Coder kerja coding. Walaupun dia rasa dia boleh jadi manager, tapi view manager lain pulak. Manager kerja manage, suruh coding haram tak tahu. (Ok lah dua-dua boleh buat kerja sebaliknya, cuma mungkin tak effisyen)

Just my thoughts

digitalgunner

Originally posted by LanoG at 6-7-2006 01:02 PM


Tak setuju! Tak semua orang ada degree yang bangang pasal programming, sebab ada gak yang terrer. Diorang tu cuma lebih banyak buat benda2 lain yang kurang tertumpu bab2 membina programming. Le ...

Aku bukan la kate sume org degree bangang cm tu...aku just bg opinion based on student kt U aku dulu...bukan ape...name je dah final year student...tp basic2 cm if else statement pun bley x reti2 lagik...pakai variable tp mcm pakai constant...design database x yh ckp ar...lg la lemah...pastu buat coding bukan reti nk ada discipline nk taruk comment/indentation...tp aku admit la...mmg ada yg terrer...yg mane tere tu mmg aku respect gile ar...ada dh dikalangan member aku yg dah start company sendiri buat contract nye project...cume ape yg aku ckp ni just personal observation aku kt U aku dulu...rata2 dak2 U aku mmg lemah programming ni...Final Year Project almost 70% student cedok project2 dr internet...yg mane buat sendiri tu...quality level utk project rata2 x mencapai taraf yg memuaskan...tp ada gak la beberapa project yg outstanding...ni bkn aku yg ckp...tp lecturer aku yg jd coordinator utk final year project kt universiti aku...pastu external examiner yg datang nk evaluate pun rata2 bg comment yg mcm tu...aku x tau la utk U lain cm ne...maybe jugak dak2 batch aku je kot yg teruk sbb U aku still revised course IT time aku dulu...

Bagi aku...programming skill ni penting...x kire la kalo dh masuk peringkat management skalipun...bapak aku even dh jadik GM pun still buat coding lg...tp tu lebih kepada diri dia sendiri yg mmg minat buat programming ni...bagi aku management skill sume tu bleh dpt melalui observation & pengalaman kerja...tp technical skill mcm programming ni kite kene usaha nk dptkan...sbb tu la minat tu kena ada...

LanoG

Originally posted by digitalgunner at 7-7-2006 01:19 AM



Aku bukan la kate sume org degree bangang cm tu...aku just bg opinion based on student kt U aku dulu...bukan ape...name je dah final year student...tp basic2 cm if else statement pun bley x r ...

Agreed! :cool: Betul secara realitinya memang ramai yang cedok keje orang lain especially dari internet. Diorang nak mudahkan benda tu, dah le cedok keje orang lain dapat markah A pulak. Orang yang berhempas pulas nak create program sendiri pulak yang markah kurang... betul tak! Ini memang realiti sesetengah budak2 U kat Malaysia nie, suka sangat nak meniru dan cedok keje orang lain. Sebab tu kalo diorang jadi manager ke suatu hari nanti ilmu tak masuk, tak berkat! Tapi yang peliknya boleh survive ye....

Aku rasa le, kalo mana2 company nak hire diorang, kena test real-time programming masa interview. Baru rasa macam mana leguh nak buat program. Ala.. macam sapa kata aritu, nak buat 'Hello World' program pun tak tau... dah kes berat! Aku walaupun bukan background IT (degree bidang lain ma..), memang paham sangat sebab aku tanya kat diorang pun diorang tak bagi jawapan yang betul, aku lebih reti nak buat daripada diorang.... (apa nak jadi le... kan).

alien3d

Di dalam pelajaran  masalah

Aku study oop sendiri kat 2 tahun.Bila masuk poli ambil sijil.Aku bertekak ngan lecturer poli pasal oop.(Master from Australias major in programming0.Asyik asyik ajar clas autmobile class abstract.Yang paling tak logik ialah reference.Kalau web based mungkin anda perlu buat reference sebab nak jimat memory excute tetapi c++ zaman bila ma.Diorang basic oop sangat lemah.Apa pengalaman aku aku tulis semua potong markah sebab tak ikut module disediakan.Jika tahap sijil pun diorang tak leh ajar.MAcam mana diroang ajar budak master degree.Even basic programming pun fail.ADa masa presentation,complen itu dan ini  kenapa tak buat lebih,buat lebih kata menunjuk pula.Kadang kala menunjuk itu perlu untuk memastikan idea itu dibebaskan bukan terkonkong dengan module.Programming ialah konsep macam mana anda mahu mengubah menjadi sesuatu bukan menghafal function.Bagaimana anda hendak menggunakan di dalam masalah sebenar.Membodek lecturer untuk dapat A takpe bagi setengah orang,tetapi bila kerja menipu berapa lama anda mahu tipu customer sebenarnya syarikat tidak mampu buat sistem sedangkan duit dah dapat?

Di dalam kerja.
At least kena ada R & d sebelum develop aplikasi misalnya framework untuk mengelakan masalah penghantaran lewat.
Kena ada supervisor yang tahu apa itu programming
Kena siap sedia custom module sebelum nak integerate kepada apa apa sistem

**Kena ajar balik lec kat U lak

LanoG

Lecturer dulu mana ada belajar benda2 macam nie. Zaman DOS dulu aku rasa mana ada konsep2 yang baru, Java pun tak wujud lagi masa tuh, C ada le... tapi maybe different sikit. Sebab tu diorang pun kena gak belajar dari mula sebelum diorang ajar kat pelajar2 lain. Silap haribulan, kalo lecturer yang malas nak belajar benda2 baru nie.... korang tak dapat le merasa diajar perkara lebih advance/intermediate.

Macam tu jugak dalam keje, setiap programming language tu dinamik dan sentiasa berkembang, contohnya korang tengok le programming language tu, dah version ke berapa. Kalo malas nak update ilmu, memang ketinggalan le nampaknya.

Ewahhh... banyak pulak aku bersyarahan ari nie.... hehe!

boyan

korang.. aku nak finalize dah kelas programming ni.. setelah survey menyurvey... dan amik input org.. this is what i come up with....

aku cut and paste dari posting aku kat ittutor forum..

ok korang... tq for all the input before this. really appreciate it. bole aku agak2 market price. hari tu aku ada jumpe a center which offers somewhat something similar. also, aku ada dapat quote from someone else jugak.


Quotation A
2 hours per session, 2 times a week, for 8 weeks = RM 750.
class is from 7 to 9 pm, monday and thursday.

Quotation B
12 hours of basic programming = RM 600.

Kalau kita tgk at per hour rate, Quotation A is at RM 26.7 per hour.
Quotation B is at RM 50 per hour. Hohohoho.

mula2 aku nak ajar.... 2 hours per session, once a week, three months. but is too long, too tiring and not focused enough. People might easily forget what was taught last week, instead of what was taught last 3-4 days ago.

So here's the new class structure

1 1/2 hours per session
2 sessions per week
8 weeks.

This is what you will learn

- familiarization with programming basics (using an editor, compile and debug)
- statements and syntax
- variables, their types and operations on variables
- arrays
- control flow (if else, for/while loop, switch statement)
- getting user input from keyboard
- reading and writing to files
- small library terminal application (kira cam final exam la... hehe... basically program perpustakaan, cam login, check buku, pinjam buku, pulang buku etc... will incorporate semua benda yang belajar sebelum ni..)

How much? RM 660 for working adults, RM 540 for students. Will work on promotional discount later (member bring member, sibling discount etc).

Added values

* free internet... come surf all you want during non-class hours... kalau bawak laptop anytime bole. kiosks will be provided in the future...

* on wednesday, there will be no classes at all. but lab is opened, and i will be in for consultation. come bring your homework hehehe.. nak duk dalam computer lab coding saja bole.. internet pun bole...

* untuk 'graduation', a simple cert and a codebook of all your written Java code for your reference

* will also teach how to set up your own programming environment on your own home computer... senang je... install Java, VIM and ure set to go.

Actually what I am charging may not sufficiently sustain the business (in the case of low to medium enrolment), tp insyaAllah once aku dah setup 2nd lab, aku leh generate extra income from other classes taught by other people. karang ni baru ada satu lab with 10 computers.

Tell me what you guys think. And most importantly, untuk org2 yang dah ada keje, when is the best time to schedule the class?

Here are your choices

Isnin (8.30 malam sampai 10.00 malam)
Selasa (8.30 malam sampai 10.00 malam)
Khamis (8.30 malam sampai 10.00 malam)
Jumaat (8.30 malam sampai 10.00 malam)
Sabtu (8.30 pagi sampai 10.00 pagi)
Sabtu (10.30 pagi sampai 12.00 tgh)
Sabtu (3.00 ptg sampai 4.30 ptg)
Sabtu (5.00 ptg sampai 6.00 petang)

You need to choose TWO sessions from above.

Tq korang!

boyan

Ok korang dah siapppp! Ni aku cut and paste dari forum lain ye...

||| aturminda technologies |||

Basic programming class, dalam Java.

32 hour total teaching time, spread out over 8 weeks. 2 sessions each week. Satu session dua jam each. At each session, we will go over the theory and on-the-spot simple coding exercises.

Currently, we are having a promotional rate. So far, aku tgk this is the lowest rate (usually around 750/900/1500).

Student rate (sekolah menengah, school leavers under 21 y/o, college students) = RM 540
Adult rate = RM 660

What will you learn?

# Introduction to syntax, editor and code-compile-run process
# Variables and their datatypes, and variable manipulations
# Arrays
# Control flow (if else, loops, switch statements)
# Reading user input into program
# Read and write operations on files
# Final assignment - a simple, menu-based library application combining previously taught concepts

Kelas yang dibuka:

Basic 1A (Isnin, Khamis, 9.00 pagi - 11.00 pagi)
Basic 2A (Isnin, Khamis, 3.00 ptg - 5.00 ptg)
Basic 3A (Isnin, Khamis, 8.30 mlm - 10.30 mlm)

We will also teach how you can setup your own programming environment at home, free of charge. You can also graduate to next classes (intermediate and advanced).

Ofis dekat Taman Melawati, Hulu Klang. Untuk maklumat lanjut, leh gi kat website www.aturminda.com atau email info@aturminda.com. Boleh gak call 03-41471548 atau 017-2829501.

InsyaAllah in the future kita akan bukak kelas2 lain mcm Intermediate Programming, Advanced Programming, Web application ngan Basic Linux.