[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Fuzzman

Debmey why not quit "beating on  an already dead snake" and get on with the business of proving your worth in the paedo quest by discussing Jubair ibni Mut'im. Now this is my challenge to you.

IF YOU CAN PROVE THAT JUBAIR IBNI MUT'IM CANNOT PUT DOUBT OVER THE TRUE AGE OF AISHAH WHEN CONSUMMATED BY CONTRACT TO THE PROPHET OF ISLAM, THE I WILL OPENLY APOLOGISE TO YOU AND ADMIT OPENLY THAT THE PROPHET OF ISLAM IS INDEED AS YOU SAY - A PAEDOPHILE.

I'm dangling you a sweet apple from the Lord Allah's Tree Of Life. You got the bollocks to carry through this raw deal?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

`A磇sha Bint Abu Bakr was Prophet Muhammad's third wife. `A磇sha herself narrated, "The Messenger of God married me in Shawwal in the tenth year after of his prophet hood, three years before the Migration as I was six years old. I was nine years old when he consummated the marriage with me.

The hadiths are clear. Mohd married aisha when she was only 6 years old and had sex with her when she was only 9.

Can Fazzy please explain to us how mohd having sex with a 9 year old aisha involved jubair at all?

Fuzzman

Posted by Debmey at 15-7-2007 10:13 PM  :
`A磇sha Bint Abu Bakr was Prophet Muhammad's third wife. `A磇sha herself narrated, "The Messenger of God married me in Shawwal in the tenth year after of his prophet hood, three years before the Migration as I was six years old. I was nine years old when he consummated the marriage with me. The hadiths are clear. Mohd married aisha when she was only 6 years old and had sex with her when she was only 9. Can Fazzy please explain to us how mohd having sex with a 9 year old aisha involved jubair at all?

You have failed to answer post #1891 where these two were appended by me. They are direct translation from the Arabic Ahadiths by Al-Bukhari. Read on below:-
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

We will notice that the events showed above corelated very clearly with your submission too. However there's one major probelm and that is your appended hadith is not very clear. You see all of narratives by Aishah on her age was not recorded directly from her but through transmissions from Hisham, a Shia narrator living in Iraq. Hisham not only has bad memory but I suspect that his recording of Aishah's age is "suspect" because Hisham is Shia while Aishah is Sunni. Go figure!

Evidence that Aisha was much older than 9

Evidence 1.
According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768) biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during the first few years of Islam. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she got married. Sira, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227

Evidence 2.
Tabari reports that when Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Ethiopia (8 years before Hijra), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Aisha was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Aisha as his son's wife. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. If Aisha was only six years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Ethiopia. Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Pg 38

Evidence 3.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. If Aisha was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH. Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, Pg. 50

Evidence 4.
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old. Muhammad migrated to Medina when he was 52, making Aisha 14 years old in 1 AH. Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377

I give you 4 evidences but I want you to see your quote and compare it to Evidence number 2 -first paragraph highlighted in Red. See the time line. NOW MAKE YOUR CASE.  And please stop giving me your sorry-ar-sed repetitions of Al-Bukhari. It makes you look really uneducated and stoopid! As if you don't have a thinking mind, which I feel you might have.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 16-7-2007 01:43 AM ]

Debmey

Evidence that Aisha was much older than 9

Evidence 1.
According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768) biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during the first few years of Islam. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she got married. Sira, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227

Really? Can you post those verses here that says exactly that?

Evidence 2.
Tabari reports that when Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Ethiopia (8 years before Hijra), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Aisha was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Aisha as his son's wife. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. If Aisha was only six years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Ethiopia. Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Pg 38


Evidence 3.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. If Aisha was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH. Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, Pg. 50

Here is the quote from Tabari, volume 9, page 129.

"The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both Aisha and Sawdah in Marriage...

            ...When Khadijah died, Khawlah, wife of Uthman, who was in Mecca, said (to the Messenger of God), "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?"  He replied, "Whom"?"  "A maiden [virgin]", she said, if you like, or a non-maiden."  He replied, "Who is the maiden?"  "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "Aisha bint Abi Bakr.".....

            She went to Abu Bakr's house, where she found Umm Ruman, mother of Aisah and said, "O Umm Ruman, what a good thing and a blessing has God brought to you!"  She said, "What is that?"  Khawlah replied, "The Messenger of God has sent me to ask for Aisha's hand in marriage on his behalf."

            The story goes on to describe how Abu Bakr then gave his daughter in marriage [equal to betrothal] when she was 6.

Farzy seems to [lat selective quotation of his source when his tabari source clearly stated aisha's age.

Evidence 4.
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old. Muhammad migrated to Medina when he was 52, making Aisha 14 years old in 1 AH. Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377

Can you please post those verses that says that here for us to see?
I posted verses to show mohd's paedophilia while all you can do is make claims about what certain verses said w/o any evidence at all.

I give you 4 evidences but I want you to see your quote and compare it to Evidence number 2 -first paragraph highlighted in Red. See the time line. NOW MAKE YOUR CASE.  And please stop giving me your sorry-ar-sed repetitions of Al-Bukhari. It makes you look really uneducated and stoopid! As if you don't have a thinking mind, which I feel you might have.

kindly reply to my rebuttal this time with evidence and logic.

Can your evidence be clearer than these?

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

            "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.  Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

            "Narrated Urwa:  "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

            "Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.  We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj.  Then I got ill and my hair fell down.  Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends.  She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.  She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.  I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it.  Then she took me into the house.  There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck."  Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).  Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."









FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309



            Aisha reported:  Allah抯 Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine

Fuzzman

Posted by Debmey at 16-7-2007 10:29 AM  :
Here is the quote from Tabari, volume 9, page 129.
"The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both Aisha and Sawdah in Marriage.. When Khadijah died, Khawlah, wife of Uthman, who was in Mecca, said (to the Messenger of God), "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?"  He replied, "Whom"?"  "A maiden [virgin]", she said, if you like, or a non-maiden."  He replied, "Who is the maiden?"  "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "Aisha bint Abi Bakr.".

Thank you Debmey for providing more proofs to support my case. The highlights in red prove that you have been moving around in the dark all these while.
1. The question of a replacement chioce - "WHOM?"
Prophet Mohammad replied, "WHOM?" to Kaulah's question of him ending his bachelor through death of Khatijah. When Prophet Mohammad said, "WHOM?", out goes the insinuation by paedo-proponents who charged that Prophet Mohammad was salivating over Aishah from the very begining. "WHOM?" means after the death of Kahtijah, the Prophet of Islam hadn't a replacement choice YET. It was Kaulah who wanted Prophet Mohammad to end his loneliness.

2. The choice of Age as suggested by Kaulah. MAIDEN or NON-MAIDEN?
Then Kaulah went on to suggest the probable preferance of the prophet of Islam. It was either a maiden or non-maiden. We take the word "MAIDEN" to be of self-consent age. Meaning above the age of a child, while a "NON-MAIDEN" to be of child age and to be included by parent consent.

And the prophet of Islam made his choice by asking the question that will knock you over and that question is : "WHO IS THAT MAIDEN?"
By saying that, proves that Prophet Mohammad chose a virgin of higher age than a child. Thus the argument of the age of 11 to 15.

Allah be praised. Thank you Debmey. Allah works in mysterious ways because Allah made you append the truth of the matter with regards to the age of Aishah.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Kaulah can force mohd to take new wives even if he didn't want to? mohd took another 15.

where is it that confirm maiden to be of a certain age, please show us.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 16-7-2007 06:45 PM
Kaulah can force mohd to take new wives even if he didn't want to? mohd took another 15. where is it that confirm maiden to be of a certain age, please show us.

Don't be lazy. You have "Arab" friends dontcha? Why not ask them what constitutes the ripe age of a maiden? Knowing your "typical Arab" friends [which are as smoke screen as you are!], I'm sure and highly guess they'll say that the age of a maiden is 6 years old! LOL

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

There is not specified age. How can you assume anything Fuzzy?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 16-7-2007 08:21 PM
There is not specified age. How can you assume anything Fuzzy?

What is the difference between a "MAIDEN" and a "NON-MAIDEN"?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

you tell us with supporting evidence, not opinion.

Fuzzman

Posted by Debmey at 17-7-2007 02:24 PM:
Fuzzman: What is the difference between a "MAIDEN" and a "NON-MAIDEN"?
Debmey: you tell us with supporting evidence, not opinion.

Now you don't have to get all panicky on me Debmey. If you asked for "supporting evidences" which are not self-opinionated for other things, subjects or issues; I'd gladly comply. But to ask me for such with regards to putting into clarity, the differences between the words "MAIDEN" and NON-MAIDEN", being such basic simple debate tendering, seems unneccasry and will only lead to you looking rather foolish in request. I'm sure you wouldn't want following eyes to opiniate you in negative light, would you?

Below is what you posted from Tabari.
Posted by Debmey at 16-7-2007 10:29 AM  :
Here is the quote from Tabari, volume 9, page 129.
"The Reason Why the Messenger of God Asked for the Hands of Both Aisha and Sawdah in Marriage.. When Khadijah died, Khawlah, wife of Uthman, who was in Mecca, said (to the Messenger of God), "O Messenger of God, will you not marry?"  He replied, "Whom"?"  "A maiden [virgin]", she said, if you like, or a non-maiden."  He replied, "Who is the maiden?"  "The daughter of the dearest creature of God to you," she answered, "Aisha bint Abi Bakr.".

Kaulah asked Prophet Mohammad, on the available bride preferance being either that be a maiden or if he likes, or a non-maiden. We read the prophet's response to be preferential to a maiden.

So now we need to investigate the choice made by the prophet of Islam in record. The prophet chose "maiden" over "non-maiden". So what's the difference between the both?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Oh I see, a maiden is simply a virgin. Is a 6 year old girl not a maiden then?

You see what is happening Fuzzy? You are hagning yourself with such revelation. Mohd was indeed a paedophile.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 17-7-2007 10:52 PM
Oh I see, a maiden is simply a virgin. Is a 6 year old girl not a maiden then? You see what is happening Fuzzy? You are hagning yourself with such revelation. Mohd was indeed a paedophile.

What took you ages to reply Debmey? Couldn't google a "suitable" answer that fits your taste?
Tell me something. How old do you think France's Joan of Arc was when she lead the French against the British?

And lastly Debmey, do you consider Jacob aka Israel to be a paedophile too?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 18-7-2007 10:24 PM ]

Debmey

No more running away Fuzzy.

The hadiths are clear. Even the Al Tabari you quoted supported Mohd's paedophilia.

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

            "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.  Hisham said:  "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 7, #88:

            "Narrated Urwa:  "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""





Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:

            "Narrated Aisha:  The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.  We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj.  Then I got ill and my hair fell down.  Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends.  She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.  She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house.  I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it.  Then she took me into the house.  There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck."  Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).  Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."









FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309



            Aisha reported:  Allah抯 Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine

Fuzzman

Who's running Debmey? I stand my ground as always.
Never mind, we save Jubair for last. Two questions in your face.

1. What constitutes a maiden and a non-maiden?

2. Do you consider Jacob to be a paedophile when he married a very young Rachel?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 18-7-2007 10:57 PM ]

Debmey

The source you showed said virgins were called maidens. Was Aisha a virgin when she was 9 years old?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 18-7-2007 11:50 PM
The source you showed said virgins were called maidens. Was Aisha a virgin when she was 9 years old?

Come come now Debmey I'm sure you wouldn't want to show a nother negative side of you to the already growing negative collection you got exibited on RF? The source of the "maiden and non-maiden" issues can from your Tabari hadith. I was merely expanding the issue to make your eyes see better. So are you saying you cannot differentiate between maidens and non-maidens?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

You see, Fuzzman cannot deal with those haditsh presented.

cheers

Png_Prince

Originally posted by Debmey at 19-7-2007 09:05 AM
You see, Fuzzman cannot deal with those haditsh presented.

cheers

Cant u comprehend simple questions u stupid !! Such a loser you are!! U once even told me laws in OT only applicable for moses's people at that time when u were cornered. Such u pathetic loser u r! U r not fit for a decent debate. U dont even dare to reveal ur sect and that shows how ashamed u of ur own sect. . U r only good at cheers.

Let me cheer a loser like you. CHEERS.

Debmey

look fuzzy, the loser is clearly you. You  can never deal with those verses, cannot even back up your jubair distractions and have to keep using so many new nicks.

Come on, if you need to do all that fopr islam, then its a religion that is not worth it. I suggest you dump islam for something else.