[MERGED]--Room inside Kaba is a forbidden.Why? - Pict page 43

Bapa

So, are you implying that the Christians, the Buddhists, the Hindus and you are practicing the same method of serving God? If that is the case, I understand then. Tq.

saya tidak mengatakan semuanya sama, terpulang bagaimana cara saudara memahaminya. Cuma apa yang saya hendak awak faham ialah muslim tidak menyembah kaabah.

kompia23

#1644 gunblade712

1. tak sah.

Persoalan pertama tu saya tanyakan kepada saudara Bapa kerana saya ingin tahu sekiranya sembahyang tanpa merujuk ke arah kiblat itu sah atau tidak. Dan ini dijawab oleh gunblade dan telah mengesahkan apa yang saya ingin katakan iaitu saudara terpaksa merujuk ke arah kiblat dalam sembahyang saudara. Kalau nak cakap kasar sikit... sembahyang saudara tu tidak akan didengar oleh Tuhan.

2. Boleh bersolat jika memang tidak boleh mencari @ menetapkan arah kiblat. kami, Muslim, boleh bersolat di atas kapal laut, kapal terbang, kapal perang dan aper2 lagilah yg kamu nak bentangkan kat sini.  

Apa perbezaan bersolat dengan sembahyang?

Sekian.

kompia23

#1651 Bapa

1. kristian tidak sembah salib. begitu juga dengan muslim tidak sembah kaabah. Ini perkara senang untuk difahami.

bagus.

2. bersolat dituntut mengikut arah kiblat kerana itu lah peraturan dan suruhanNYA. [/qutoe]

Tetapi tidak dipraktikkan oleh nabi-nabi dulu? Maka, suruhan siapa tu?

[quote] 3. berdoa pula tidak diwajibkan ke arah kiblat dan boleh dibuat dimana2 sahaja.

Pendapat saudara bercanggah dengan apa yang saudara gunblade katakan.  

Bersolat - boleh mana arah oleh gunblade
Bersolat - perlu hala ke kiblat oleh Bapa

Siapa yang betul?

Sekian.

mindpropeller

1653# gunblade712

2:136	Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
2:137	If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
2:138	(Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve.
2:139	Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him.
2:140	Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
2:141	This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and youshall not be called upon to answer for what they did.
2:142	The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.
2:143	And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Apostle from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.
2:144	Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.
2:145	And even if you bring to those who have been given theBook every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.
2:146	Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).
2:147	The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters.
2:148	And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.
2:149	And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn yourface towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely it is the very truthfrom your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
2:150	And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn yourface towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turnyour faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusationagainst you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fearthem, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you andthat you may walk on the right course.
2:151	Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know.
2:152	Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me.

The verses above explain that all of God's prophets had actually forwarded the same Message to us. There should be no disputes like why a prophet was telling this while the others were telling different other things. It is clear that contemporary religions have never been the work of the prophets. God assured us that none of His prophets shall be responsible to these kind of deeds. That maybe the very reason why the community of contemporary religions for ages have never been in agreement to each other. They went to wars because of their religious disputes. There are so many things to be quarreled at. The list seems infinite. And hey, have you sir, read carefully what says God about people insisting on their divine direction or Qiblah? They are fools. Check 2:142. The east and the west belong to God. If there is still an iota of doubt, the whole universe belongs to God.

But how about the instruction to turn our face towards the Sacred Mosque during solat? Okay, now please go get a copy of the original Arabic Quran and check whether God has said anything about solat in these specific verses quoted. If these verses really don't talk anything about solat, maybe you should allow yourself to ponder a while, sir. Looks like there are lots of question to answer.

wlio_snr

kompia mana posting yang gunblade tulis bersolat bolih ke arah mana mana
I don't see any posting stated that.
He did mentioned that we can make a "do'a" without facing the Kaabah

jillijie

saudara kompia

1. Kalau seseorang tu da tau arah kiblat tetapi masih bersolat ke arah lain tentunya tidak sah..tetapi berlainan pula dgan kes orang yg betul2 tidak tahu dan gagal mencari arah kiblat dan dlm keadaan darurat contohnya dlam pesawat memadailah dgan mengganggarkan setepat yg boleh shja..namun jika tidak diketahui kearah mana pesawat bergerak maka dibolehkan untuk tetap pada arah asal.

Jabir bin Abdillah radiallahu-anhumenerangkan: Kami pernah solat di satu malam yang  mendung dan kami tidak mengetahui arah qiblat. Tatkala kami selesai solat kami perhatikan bahawa kami (sebenarnya) solat bukan menghadap ke arah qiblat. Lalu kami sampaikan hal ini kepada Rasulullah s.a.w lalu beliau berkata: Kamu telah melakukan yang terbaik. Seterusnya Jabir berkata: Dan beliau tidak menyuruh kami mengulanginya..

Sabda Nabi
Baitullah ialah qiblat bagi penduduk
(yang berada sekitar) Masjidil Haram, dan Masjidil Haram ialah qiblat bagi penduduk
(yang berada sekitar) tanah suci Mekah, sedangkan tanah suci merupakan qiblat
bagi penduduk bumi dari umatku baik yang ada di sebelah timur mahupun di
sebelah barat

bermaksud menghadap kiblat dengan tepat adalah wajib bagi mereka yang berada disekitar Masjidil Haram.Manakala bagi mereka yang jauh dari Makkah,memadailah menghadap ke arah Makkah sebagai menetapi syarat hukum.

mencari arah kiblat adlah kewajipan umat Islam..mcam2 teknologi da ada skrg..utk org Islam slalunya boleh mgunakan kompas khas mencari arah kiblat..so kalu pegi oversea boleh rujuk pada kompas tersebut n rujukan nombor sudut bumi yg bsesuaian...

Firman Allah:

“(Allah) telah memudahkan untuk kamu apa-apa yang ada di langit dan apa-apa yang ada di bumi semuanya daripadaNya.” (al-Jatsiyah:
13)

2. sembahyang sama mksud dgan solat

jillijie

yg penting niat kita betul2 ikhlas utk bersolat kerana tlah berusaha sdaya mampu utk menghindarkan apa2 kesulitan dlm solat kerana Allah itu maha adil dan pengasihani

Bapa

1663# kompia23

baik awak baca lagi

gunblade712

1664# mindpropeller

i don't really know how do you study the Quran. You just love to take few verses without actually understanding the whole concept via the Quran and the Hadith.

The "fools" in your quoted verse is those who argued on why do we have to face the Qiblat (referring to Makkah) in solat whereas the first Qiblat was not Makkah but actually BaitulMaqdis. You can check with the Sirah Nabawiyyah and see whether what I am telling you is right or not.

The most simplest way to explain to you is that the Prophet s.a.w. told us to "Pray as if you see me pray" . The Prophet s.a.w. prayed facing the Qiblat.

So why do you argue on that fact, brother? Can you provide to us ONE hadith in which the Prophet s.a.w. have the ability to face the Qiblat yet he (s.a.w.) choose NOT to face it?

The Qiblat is the simbol of Unity amongst Muslims. No matter where you live, you will STILL worship One God, followed the teaching of ONE BOOK, from ONE PROPHET s.a.w., and facing ONE QIBLAT.

If, by Allah's Will, the Ka'abah is destroyed, we will STILL face the same direction, i.e proof that we do not worship the Ka'abah at all.

During our previous discussion, I've noticed that you usually took just one verse (or in this case, from one context) of the Quran without looking at the rest of the teachings. This is not usually the right way to apply the teachings, brother.

gunblade712

#1644 gunblade712

Persoalan pertama tu saya tanyakan kepada saudara Bapa kerana saya ingin tahu sekiranya sembahyang tanpa merujuk ke arah kiblat itu sah atau tidak. Dan ini dijawab oleh gunblade dan telah mengesahkan apa yang saya ingin katakan iaitu saudara terpaksa merujuk ke arah kiblat dalam sembahyang saudara. Kalau nak cakap kasar sikit... sembahyang saudara tu tidak akan didengar oleh Tuhan.

kenapa pulak solat kami tidak didengar oleh Tuhan? Di dalam Quran Allah memberitahu kami bahawa Dia adalah Al-Basir, Maha Mendengar... di mana pulak kamu mendapat idea bahawa Tuhan tidak mendengar sembahyang kami jika kami tidak mengadap Qiblat?

Persoalan tentang Qiblat ini telah lama di jawab. Orang Yahudi sendiri berqiblatkan BaitulMaqdis, jadi adakah mereka menyembah selain daripada Tuhan yang Esa?

Please check 1Kings : 41 - 43

Apa perbezaan bersolat dengan sembahyang?

Sekian.


kompia23 Post at 2-9-2009 14:01

IMHO, hanya daripada sudut bahasa. Saya lebih selesa menggunakan perkataan "solat" daripada perkataan "sembahyang"

gunblade712

#1651 Bapa



Pendapat saudara bercanggah dengan apa yang saudara gunblade katakan.  

Bersolat - boleh mana arah oleh gunblade
Bersolat - perlu hala ke kiblat oleh Bapa

Siapa yang betul?

Sekian.

kompia23 Post at 2-9-2009 14:44

dua2 betul kalau kamu baca statement kami betul2...

saya tidak mengatakan bahawa kita boleh bersolat ikut mana-mana arah. saya mengatakan kita boleh solat ikut mana-mana arah jika kamu memang tak boleh langsung mencari arah qiblat. 

zaman skarang nih dah tak susah nak cari arah Qiblat, kan?

mindpropeller

Post Last Edit by gunblade712 at 3-9-2009 09:58

1664# mindpropeller

i don't really know how do you study the Quran. You just love to take few verses without actually understanding the whole co ...
gunblade712 Post at 3-9-2009 09:53

Sir, at least I quoted a few verses so that you could look into the whole context of what God really say. If you care to look carefully at the verses I quoted, you should find out the notion that God has asked us to face towards Kaaba "to validate solat" is not true at all. First, the verses do not mention anything about solat. Second, God clearly says that all prophets brought the same message, so which prophets before Muhamad that we know had asked the people to face Kaabah?

My different of interpretation is not because I cannot understand Quran. But because I don't refer to any other third party sources to understand it. Al-Quran is sent to us by God for our Guidance. Anything that we should know, is there in the Quran. It is the Book from God Himself and He even tell us that it is easy to comprehend and to remember. Why do we need to refer all those cheapo third party writings when we have the Book from God Himself. Hasn't God warned us that some people of the prophets tend to confused others by distorting the original words of God in so many ways? Think of it, sir.

Bapa

Allah SWT telah memperkenankan doa Nabi Muhamad SAW untuk menjadikan Masjidilharam sebagai kiblat sepertimana dalam ayat :-

Kerap kali Kami melihat engkau (wahai Muhammad), berulang-ulang menengadah ke langit, maka Kami benarkan engkau berpaling mengadap kiblat yang engkau sukai. Oleh itu palingkanlah mukamu ke arah Masjidilharam (tempat letaknya Kaabah) dan di mana sahaja kamu berada maka hadapkanlah muka kamu ke arahnya dan sesungguhnya orang-orang (Yahudi dan Nasrani) yang telah diberikan Kitab, mereka mengetahui bahawa perkara (berkiblat ke Kaabah) itu adalah perintah yang benar dari Tuhan mereka dan Allah tidak sekali-kali lalai akan apa yang mereka lakukan. (144 Al Baqarah) :-

mindpropeller

1673# Bapa

Bapa,

The verse you quoted is part of the verses I was quoted. Why I quoted more than I verse? Because you have to read the whole context of the verses to understand and realize what is actually the message of God regarding kiblah. Read carefully, please.

Bapa

1674# mindpropeller

jika saudara sudah baca kesemuanya, apakah saudara faham dari ayat-ayat tersebut?

mindpropeller

1675# Bapa

From the verses, I understand that all prophets of God had brought forward the same Message. Thus the Qiblah of Muhamad shall not be any different from the rest of them. So, the word Masjidilharam may have other meaning rather than a  mosque containing Kaaba in Makkah.

gunblade712

Post Last Edit by mindpropeller at 3-9-2009 15:18



Sir, at least I quoted a few verses so that you could look into the whole context of what God really say. If you care to look carefully at the verses I quoted, you should find out the notion that God has asked us to face towards Kaaba "to validate solat" is not true at all. First, the verses do not mention anything about solat. Second, God clearly says that all prophets brought the same message, so which prophets before Muhamad that we know had asked the people to face Kaabah?

yup, all prophet brought the same message, and Muhammad s.a.w. is the seal of the Prophets.

In other words, Muhammad s.a.w. perfected the teachings of the previous prophets. There's a hadith than tells us that even if Musa a.s. was around, he would have no choice but to follow Muhammad s.a.w. 's teaching. 

You cannot look at the verse of the Quran and deemed it according to your understandings, sir. You need to look at the language used, the situation of which the verse was revealed, and the hadith that explained the verse.

Most probably you rejected the Hadith. Fine.

When was the verse revealed? Did you check this out? What was the sirah Nabawiyyah corresponding to the verse, sir? What happen before, during, and after those verses was revealed?

My different of interpretation is not because I cannot understand Quran. But because I don't refer to any other third party sources to understand it. Al-Quran is sent to us by God for our Guidance. Anything that we should know, is there in the Quran. It is the Book from God Himself and He even tell us that it is easy to comprehend and to remember. Why do we need to refer all those cheapo third party writings when we have the Book from God Himself. Hasn't God warned us that some people of the prophets tend to confused others by distorting the original words of God in so many ways? Think of it, sir.

mindpropeller Post at 3-9-2009 14:35

Yes, but in the Quran, Allah tells you to follow the Prophet s.a.w. Allah s.w.t tells you to take whatever the Prophet s.a.w. has given you. The Prophet s.a.w. gave out the hadith. Do you accept Al-Hadith as the rightful source, sir?

mindpropeller

1677# gunblade712

yup, all prophet brought the same message, and Muhammad s.a.w. is the seal of the Prophets.

In other words, Muhammad s.a.w. perfected the teachings of the previousprophets. There's a hadith than tells us that even if Musa a.s. wasaround, he would have no choice but to follow Muhammad s.a.w. 'steaching.

Muhamad was a messenger not a teacher. As a messenger his duty is to convey the message of God, nothing more nothing less. The message was in form of a book. Which is the Quran. It is a complete guidance for man who is looking for the truth regarding God because if you ask other man for God the chances are they will tell you all sort of nonsense.

All other prophets of the Book functioned the same as Muhamad. If all of them were to live at the same time, they must have been working together. None of them shall claim superiority I am sure. It is clear that to God, they were all equal.

"Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us,and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq andYaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa,and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we donot make any distinction between any of them*, and to Him do we submit. - 2:136"

* All prophet/messenger is equal, including Muhamad.

You cannot look at the verse of the Quran and deemed it according toyour understandings, sir. You need to look at the language used, thesituation of which the verse was revealed, and the hadith thatexplained the verse.

Most probably you rejected the Hadith. Fine.

When was the verse revealed? Did you check this out? What was the sirahNabawiyyah corresponding to the verse, sir? What happen before, during,and after those verses was revealed?

When the verse was revealed is none issue. It is the God's message that we should look through, not when the message was coming. Are you implying that God said one thing at one time and then reviewed it a few years later? You are saying things about God, sir. Have you ever read this verse?  

"Why do they not ponder over the Quran? Had it been from anyone other than God, they would surely find many contradictions therein" - 4:82

See. No contradiction God says. All the verses in the Quran are consistent to each other. If there were contradictions they must have come up from human. True enough, if you really care to check, all the disputes in the teachings of Islam are not originated from the Quran. Rather they all come up from the different interpretation and acceptance of the Hadiths. It is the Hadiths that brought about so many contradictions . It is the hadiths that decreed so many nonsense in God's name (rituals, laws.. you name it!). It is the hadiths that made us muslims stuck in a never ending quarrels. Even the prophet himself got burnt by the Hadiths. Having sex with a nine year old wife? What ridiculous.

Yes,but in the Quran, Allah tells you to follow the Prophet s.a.w. Allahs.w.t tells you to take whatever the Prophet s.a.w. has given you. TheProphet s.a.w. gave out the hadith. Do you accept Al-Hadith as therightful source, sir?

The answer to your question above sir, is a definite NO. Why? Because it is the Quran that God sent as through Muhamad the messenger. That is one and only Book of Guidance for the prophet and for all of us, sir.

Bapa

1676# mindpropeller

boleh saya tanya?

1. agama kamu apa?
2. Jika kamu Islam tapi anti hadis, di sini bukan tempatnya, debatlah di forum agama Islam, berdiskusi di sana sahaja.

berkenaan dengan ayat tersebut saudara perlu memahami keseluruhan kisahnya :-

The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.(142)

oleh kerana perintah Allah, kemana sahaja kiblat yang Allah tentukan, wajiblah diikuti. Masjidil haram memang adalah sekitar kaabah.

gunblade712

1678# mindpropeller

Muhamad was a messenger not a teacher. As a messenger his duty is to convey the message of God, nothing more nothing less. The message was in form of a book. Which is the Quran. It is a complete guidance for man who is looking for the truth regarding God because if you ask other man for God the chances are they will tell you all sort of nonsense.

All other prophets of the Book functioned the same as Muhamad. If all of them were to live at the same time, they must have been working together. None of them shall claim superiority I am sure. It is clear that to God, they were all equal.

"Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us,and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq andYaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa,and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we donot make any distinction between any of them*, and to Him do we submit. - 2:136"

* All prophet/messenger is equal, including Muhamad.

Muhammad s.a.w. was a Messenger AND a Teacher, brother. The same goes for the previous prophets that came before him. He brought the message AND teaches them how to understand the message. He teaches them not only with words, but with actions. 

Yes, the prophets are equal. We do not deny that. I do not want to go and discuss about the equality of the prophets (this is totally a different discussion altogether), but I would rather want to discuss the point in which you are presenting.

You are saying that due to the fact that all prophets are equal, so all of their message are the same in totality? Allah s.w.t. says, in the Glorious Quran :

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (Al-Baqarah : 106)

The verse clearly says that Allah s.w.t has the right to substitute any Laws which He had made, and He substitute it with something which is much more better. 

This shows that Allah s.w.t. Himself has the right to change the Qiblat, am I right?

When the verse was revealed is none issue. It is the God's message that we should look through, not when the message was coming. Are you implying that God said one thing at one time and then reviewed it a few years later? You are saying things about God, sir. Have you ever read this verse? 

"Why do they not ponder over the Quran? Had it been from anyone other than God, they would surely find many contradictions therein" - 4:82

it IS an issue, brother. The scholars across the world (be them anti-hadith or not) have clearly agreed that in order to understand the Quran, you need to master Arabic and the history of the Prophets s.a.w. How can you understand the verse when you do not know what has happen?

Remember our discussion on the alcohol issue? If you do not take the event which has happened into consideration, you can never understand what the Quran is trying to tell you. 

See. No contradiction God says. All the verses in the Quran are consistent to each other. If there were contradictions they must have come up from human. True enough, if you really care to check, all the disputes in the teachings of Islam are not originated from the Quran. Rather they all come up from the different interpretation and acceptance of the Hadiths. It is the Hadiths that brought about so many contradictions . It is the hadiths that decreed so many nonsense in God's name (rituals, laws.. you name it!). It is the hadiths that made us muslims stuck in a never ending quarrels. Even the prophet himself got burnt by the Hadiths. Having sex with a nine year old wife? What ridiculous.

Yet, the Hadith never contradicts the Quran. Give me just ONE hadith which contradicted the Quran, brother, and I would be more than happy to accept your words. If not, then this is just an allegation which has no proof whatsoever.

Like I say, the contradiction is NOT in the root of the teachings.

The answer to your question above sir, is a definite NO. Why? Because it is the Quran that God sent as through Muhamad the messenger. That is one and only Book of Guidance for the prophet and for all of us, sir.

then tell me, brother, how do you perform your Solat?