[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Debmey

hadiths are sahih to muslims, especially Bukhari. Muslism cannot deny its authenticity.

Tabari on the other hand is only a biographer who lived long after Mo died.

Debmey

can you back up your assumptions with proofs?

Png_Prince

Owh really, who said so ? Its not word of god. Regarding aisya's age we have other conflicting hadiths. So why u want to be so fond on bukhari's hadith and ignore other hadiths ?

Png_Prince

What i have shown is already proof of conflicting hadiths regarding aisya's age. Its not my assumption.

Debmey

no sir, the hadiths said nothing that contradictng aisha's age. You mere made baseless assumptions and changed aisha's age.

Png_Prince

Yes sir, the hadiths shows aisya's age contradicts. Please open ur eyes wide open sir.

Debmey

where? which verse exactly?

Png_Prince

Number One: Aishah's age.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

Number Two:  Aishah aged 15 at the battle of `Uhud.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic.

i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."

i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."

Number Three: Asma older than Aisha by 10 years.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required are provided below:

According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

Number Four: For Asma's age at Her Death in 73 AH.
According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

Number Five: Aishah accepts Islam during the first year of Islam.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab  (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam. (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

Number Six: Aishah the BIKR.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah  (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

Number Seven: Aishah was five years younger than Fatimah.
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference below:

i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

Number Eight: Aishah and Jubayr.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am  refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
As reported by: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah

Debmey

There is absolutely no evidence to back up your assumption that Aisha was born 6 years before the hijrah at all.

There is however a lot of evidence from the hadiths that Aisha was 9 years old when mo had sex with her.
Can you tell me why aisha would lie?

Png_Prince

Why u r so dumb ? The hadith is hearsay collection. Aisya didnt narrated straight to bukhari. Do u understand ?

Debmey

why would aisha lie and why would those who recorded teh hadiths lie?

What i do know is that you lie because there is nothing to back upi oyur assumption that aisha was born 6 years before the hijrah.

Png_Prince

Originally posted by Debmey at 28-5-2007 07:22 PM
why would aisha lie and why would those who recorded teh hadiths lie?

What i do know is that you lie because there is nothing to back upi oyur assumption that aisha was born 6 years before the ...

To make u understand, let me give u an example, in ur bible when asked "how did saul died" u have 4 different testimony, one said saul commited suicide, another said saul was killed by an amalekite, another said saul was killed by the philistines, and another said saul was killed by god. So u have 4 different testimony here. Whats sure is saul is dead, but u dont know how it happened coz got different testimony. Now i ask which one is lying here ? Worse u say its gods word but we say hadith is secondary source only so sometimes it can be wrong too.

Regarding aisya's age, it same also, when u take the other hadiths which i show you, the age of aisya contradicts, but the marriage really took place, but the age factor is not proven beyond doubt here. Hope u can understand now clearly.

Debmey

the four testimonies do not contradict each other but gave different perspectives on a similar issue.

This is not the same fro Mo's paedophilia. The mention of the age was specific and it came directly from aisha herself. Besides the claims you made are based on wild assumptions that has nothing to back them up.

You also caught yourself in a trap by denying the authenticity of Al bukhari's hadiths.

Png_Prince

U mean one said saul commited suicide, another said saul was killed by an amalekite, another said saul was killed by the philistines, and another said saul was killed by god is  not contradicting ? U just make me laugh here.

I didnt deny bukhari's hadith, but the age factor contradicts other hadiths. Maybe ur nut head cant see it.

Debmey

so you are saying that the ahdiths are not authentic?

why would aisha lie? why would bukhari lie? I just don't see any alledged contradiction on aisha's age. And you still haven't showed anything to backed up your wild assumptions.

Png_Prince

Did aisya narrated straight to bukhari ? Ur NT full of contradiction coz written through hearsay only. Then i ask now who is the liar ?

Debmey

You mean bukhari isn't authentic?
Why would anyone want to lie about Aisha's age? What is the conspiracy theory behind it? How can there be so much corroboration in the verses saying teh same thing?

And you still cannot show what you have to back up your wild assumption that Aisha was born 6 years before the hijrah.

cheers

Png_Prince

Can u give a straight answer when i ask "how did saul died ?" U cant coz u have contradict testimony by diffrerent people. Can u agree those are not authentic ?
I have given 8 contradicting hadiths regarding aisya's age. Why u so blind here ?

Png_Prince

Can u give a straight answer when i ask "how did saul died ?" U cant coz u have contradict testimony by diffrerent people. Can u agree those are not authentic ?
I have given 8 contradicting hadiths regarding aisya's age. Why u so blind here ?

DivinePonytail

Debmey,

Members are not allowed to address important religious figure such as Mo or Jeez.

Any posts containing words such as :

mo  (insulting to  Prophet Muhammad swt)
jezzz  (insulting to Jesus)
cow  (insulting to most Hindus)
etc

will be deleted as soon as they are identified. This forum is a place for intellectual discussion and not a place to vent your frustrations about other religions. Additionally insulting words used for other members like king kong, animal, baboon, moron, stupid etc, or any word which is meant as a disrespect to other members, fall under the same category. Using such words may lead to a warning being issued and in case of repeat offenders, to being banned.

Also I would like to add that the common habit of twisting CARI's  nicknames to make fun of them or insult them, will no longer be tolerated.

Thank you
DARSITA

http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthr ... &extra=page%3D1