[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Debmey

I do sir, you don't. Thats why try to deny the hadith.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 31-1-2007 02:15 AM
I do sir, you don't. Thats why try to deny the hadith.

Good show Debmey. Now that it's confirmed that you accept Al-Bukhari for its face value. [factually you have to or else you won't be quoting Bukhari.] I would like to ask your opinion on the first two of many to come and they be:-

First comment:  Aishah - The act of consultation with her parents.
You have said that Aishah was too young to know anything when she was engaged to the prophet of Islam. You argued that she was not of consent age and that she was forced not of her free will, by her parents to marry the prophet of Islam. However in Al-Bukhari, it is proven that Aishah ALWAYS SEEKS THE PERMISSION OF HER PARENTS ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING SHE INTENDS OR WISHES TO DO. That is why Prophet Mohammad mentions of her need to consult her parents first!
Here's the proof below.

Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 309:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) when Allah's Apostle was ordered to give option to his wives, he started with me, saying, "I am going to mention to you something, but you shall not hasten (to give your reply) unless you consult your parents." The Prophet knew that my parents would not order me to leave him. Then he said, "Allah says: 'O Prophet (Muhammad)! Say to your wives: If you desire the life of this world and its glitter........a great reward." (33.28-29) I said,"Then why I consult my parents? Verily, I seek Allah, His Apostle and the Home of the Hereafter." Then all the other wives of the Prophet did the same as I did.


Second Comment: The mentioning of Jubayr ibn Mut'im by Al-Bukhari.

You say that it is "NOT NECESSARY" to mention the first suitor of Aishah before Mohammad. Even in Bukhari, Jubayr after embracing Islam was recorded to be a active devout Moslem. Here's the proof below:

In Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 377:
Narrated Jubair bin Mut'im:
I heard the Prophet reciting Surat At-Tur in the Maghrib prayer, and when he reached the Verse:
'Were they created by nothing, Or were they themselves the creators, Ordid they create the Heavens and the Earth? Nay, but they have no firm belief Or do they own the treasures of Your Lord? Or have they been given the authority to do as they like...' (52.35-37) my heart was about to fly (when I realized this firm argument).


I will be happy if you could provide your opinions on the above hadiths from Al-Bukhari.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 2-2-2007 02:42 AM ]

barney50

Fuzzman,

Why do you deviate from the original topic? Hadith Al' Bukhari is the collection of your prophet's sunna and authenticated by Bukhari. So, what ever is written in it has to be true as claimed by Muslims. Now do you agree that Aishah was nine[9] years old when  her marriage was consumated by Mohammed the great prophet of Islam. Prophet appointed by your Allah was craving for a young thing and he got it. The great prophet of Islam craved for the wife of his step son, his wish was fulfilled.

So, in short whatever Mohammed craved his Allah sanctioned it and that is Islam for  Muslims. If your prophet craved for the well being of the human race on earth and if Allah sanctioned it then it would be a great thing and all would thank Allah for his mercy and grace for granting the wish of his prophet. But looks like Mohammed was a selfish prophet who craved for small things like sleeping with a nine year old child and then he craved to sleep with his step son's young wife.

For all this petty achievement Muslims are so proud of Mohammed. Did Juses asked GOD to sleep with a 9 year old or did Moses asked to sleep with the wives of his dead relatives? Now that is the difference between the Jewish prophets and Muslim's prophet. What prophet would desire for young thing when he should have more greater task at hand in educating the desert people on moral and desipline life along with faith in the creator. To educate the people on the value of human life and serving mankind on earth in order to achieve salvation in the afterlife. But that was secondary to Mohammed as his was marring young thing and young wisdows. Was that the utmost task of your prophet and Allah? Beats me!

[ Last edited by  barney50 at 2-2-2007 06:33 AM ]

Fuzzman

Barney I always save the best for last and to do just that, I'm sorry to say that I'll have to pass on answering you. I do not wish for you to steal the thunder meant for Debmey alone. However when Debmey does continue somehow when he summons enough courage, I promise I'll give your post a mention and an answer from then on. Right now I waiting on Debmey who seems rather quiet after I fed him with his own poison. I suppose Debmey doing up some form of counter research by now.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

First of all, it doesn't matter if Aisha had permission from her parents to have sex with Mohamad, sex witha 9 year old is still paedophilia.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2007 02:59 AM
First of all, it doesn't matter if Aisha had permission from her parents to have sex with Mohamad, sex witha 9 year old is still paedophilia.

Finally you are exposed. Naked for all the world to see. Now this is the second time you've "NEVER MINDED, DON'T MATTER" important issues that don't go your way. First you "NEVER MINDED, NOT IMPORTANT" Jubayr ibn Mut'im from Aishah's life chronology because Jubayr will run down your pro-paedo age timeline. You thought you made a homerun on that until I put up the Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 377 which records Jubayr ibn Mut'im narrative on the prophet. Secondly, how can it be not important to accept from Al-Bukhari's Volume 6, Book 60, Number 309 narrative by Aishah that specifically narrates that Aishah gets permission from her parents for all that she does? You had said that Aishah was not of age to marry and that she could not consent anything. Now if that be the case, how could her parents marry her off without her consent? This also proves that Aishah was a BIKR who was of consent age. In Bukhari, Mohammad had said that brides-to be have to give consent marriage to be. Mohammad even practiced that requirement each and every time with Aishah! So Aishah's marriage to the prophet of Islam was with HER OWN FREE WILL CONSENT.

While brushing aside other Bukharian hadiths, you only centre on the ones that speaks of a nine-year old Aishah's marriage to Mohammad. Look's like I got you in on a entrapment trip Dembey because you said in post #1409 that you accepted Bukhari for face value. Now do the honors Debmey.

p.s. - KNOW WHAT DEBMEY! I'M JUST GETTING TO LOVE BUKHARI MORE AND MORE EVERYDAY.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Free will about marriage by a 6 year old?
Sex at 9 years old?

Still paedophilia, you just can't run away from that no matter how you twist it.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2007 09:43 PM
Free will about marriage by a 6 year old? Sex at 9 years old? Still paedophilia, you just can't run away from that no matter how you twist it.

Two things in your face and they're coming in hot; "lock and load" mode. To make your case of paedo you have to discuss and acknowlege just two issues and they are:-

1.  Should we bring Jubayr ibn Mut'im into the paedo charge? If not why?
2.  The translation of the word "CONSUMMATE" and its meaning and application for your paedo charge.

Let's hope you do not run away from these issues as usual. You're "THEUSUAL SUSPECTS" when it comes to running in the forum. LOL

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 5-2-2007 10:13 AM ]

Debmey

Originally posted by Fuzzman at 5-2-2007 09:41 AM
1.  Should we bring Jubayr ibn Mut'im into the paedo charge? If not why?
  

Its up to you. I know Muhamad was a paedophile thats for sure.

2.  The translation of the word "CONSUMMATE" and its meaning and application for your paedo charge.

So what is your definition of consumation of a marriage?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 5-2-2007 12:23 PM:
Its up to you. I know Muhamad was a paedophile thats for sure.

Ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? I propose we bring Jubayr ibn Mut'im into the picture. Do I have your "aye" on this?

Originally posted by Debmey at 5-2-2007 12:23 PM:
So what is your definition of consumation of a marriage?

All I know is that the word "consummate" has variations in definition. So how will this help narrow down the accusation of the paedo charge?
So how do we play?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Mohamad proven guilty.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Fuzzman

Ahaa another great smokescreening job from Debmey. Man you're really good. At the pace Bush's ratings are plummeting, he'd be needing yoursmokescreening services really soon. Why not mosey on down to the White House? I'm sure Bush will take a very fast liking to you.

So how about Jubayr ibn Mut'im? It works like this sport. If you do not engage Jubayr means you cannot tag the paedo charge on Prophet Mohammad. You can quote all of Bukhari and you still are in stalemate.The only way you can make the paedo charge stick is by taking on Jubayr hands down like a real high-spirited braveheart. But I guessthat kind of heart doesn't have a home in your chest aight?

As for "CONSUMMATE"! Let me help you out a bit here, seeing getting into that is of your lowest priority right down. The word does not carry a singular meaning, thus throwing doubt on its true and proper usage in Bukhari. Let's see what I'm trying to paint here!

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
con穝um穖ate /v. ˈkɒnsəˌmeɪt; adj. kənˈsʌmɪt,ˈkɒnsəmɪt/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation [v.kon-suh-meyt; adj.kuhn-suhm-it, kon-suh-mit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -mat積d,-mat穒ng, adjective
杤erb (used with object)
1. to bring to a state of perfection; fulfill.
2.to complete (an arrangement, agreement, or the like) by a pledge or the signing of a contract: The company consummated its deal to  buy a smaller firm.
3.to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.
朼djective
4. complete or perfect; supremely skilled; superb: a consummate master of the violin.
5. being of the highest or most extreme degree: a work of consummate skill; an act of consummate savagery.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
con穝um穖ate (kŏn'sə-māt')  Pronunciation Key
tr.v.   con穝um穖at積d, con穝um穖at穒ng, con穝um穖ates

ONE.
1. To bring to completion or fruition; conclude: consummate a business transaction.
2. To realize or achieve; fulfill: a dream that was finally consummated with thepublication of her first book.
3. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony.
4. To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.
TWO.
1. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony.
2. To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.

The above are two sources. So which one shall be applied to Bukhari's translated "CONSUMMATE"? You better stop quoting Ursa because Ursa's on the money for saying "marriage contract" bubba because it's what it be.
SINCE THERE WERE NO MENTION OF SEX IN THE ABOVE BUKHARI VERSES, THEREFORE WE HAVE TO APPLY THE DEFINITIONS THAT DO NOT INCLUDE SEX.

You lose big time Debmey!

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by  Fuzzman at 6-2-2007 12:29 AM ]

Debmey

In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala".  From the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".

I have also asked two native Arabic speakers to confirm the definition of the word used in Bukhari.  They read Bukhari in Arabic for themselves, and did indeed say it meant that Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 9.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 6-2-2007 01:06 AM:
In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala".  From the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman". I have also asked two native Arabic speakers to confirm the definition of the word used in Bukhari.  They read Bukhari in Arabic for themselves, and did indeed say it meant that Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 9.

That a fact my nerdy fiend? Touching on "roots words", I presume you are speaking about Arabic root words aight? A root word in Arabic is as good as Hebrew root words in that they're "open season" for almost all kinds of definitions with additions of various vowels, prefixes and suffixes to create the effect intended in reflection and conveyance of the message.

A root word on its own is better left in the ground as a rooted root. Let me show you what I mean aight?

Read the above already? Now you kinda get a grip on where things go when it comes to Arabic root words eh? I know you must be feeling really intelligent when you swiped the "Dakhala" issue from the Net. And the additional tale of two native Arabic speakers rounded up creatively to support that tale. Know what? I on  the other side of the fence have twenty native Arabic speakers including two Arabic rappers who tell me that "Dakhala" also means "SUBMISSION"?!  Try countering that my fren!

Now we go for the usual endgame round of you-answer-me. Can you answer just one from the below:-
The 1st:
So please show me how you have applied your verses from Bukhari to depict the act of sex when the verses you pushed forward does not mention sex at all?
The 2nd:
And how do you explain - "consummate" - that has a wide open definition that throws doubt on your consummate-for-penetration argument when that word in usage can be taken to mean : "To realize or achieve" ?
The 3rd:
And how do you explain the word - "DAKHALA" - that means "SUBMISSION"? Is it wrong for a wife or  a lady bride of BIKR status to submit to the wishes of her husband? Do you see SEX in the word "DAKHALA" meant as submission in Arabic?

Man, no wonder Christians like you are so paranoid with SEX to the point y'all see SEX in almost every facet of life. No wonder pornography, paedophilia, illicit SEX in the Church system and free sex exist in most Christian countries and are the bane of your civilization. Comments aside, please answer my post aight?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

oh, you go from ful fill to submission. Looks like you are confused abour arabic and started contradicted yourself again in debate.

you mean to say muhamad did not have sex with aisha? cannot do?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 7-2-2007 12:39 AM:
oh, you go from ful fill to submission. Looks like you are confused abour arabic and started contradicted yourself again in debate. you mean to say muhamad did not have sex with aisha? cannot do?

Yeah dawg you just floored the peddle right this time around. You see whatever you put up, I've got answers for them and they are all credible colleteral; while your's ain't! From CONSUMMATE to DAKHALA, you've failed to really show that there was SEX involved.

Me contradicting myself? You're lucky you're not saying that I'm sending myself as my own Son! The trouble lies in both your eyes, because it seems to me your left eye is having probelms agreeing with what your right eye is reading. The verses from Bukhari that you put up thus far only mentions of a marriage contract FULFILLED, and that Aishah, a young lady [BIKR] as acknowledged and recommended by Khaulah, has SUBMITTED to the wishes of Prophet Mohammad, her legitimate husband, made permissible by her parents after consultation between her and them. It's all there in Bhukari, thanks to your efforts in putting them all up without fail each and every time. For that Debmey. I and the Moslem community thank you for uplifting the stature of the prophet of Islam.

So what else you got that you wanna throw at me?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Consumation of a marriage can only mean sex, nothing mysterious. You seem to be the only person who doesn't know that. ahahahahahahahahaha....................

Muhamad had sex with a 9 year old marriage and was therefore a paedophile.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Fuzzman

A really great proverb: YOU CAN BRING A FROTHING MANIAC DONKEY TO A TROUGH OF WATER BUT YOU CANNOT FORCE THAT MANIAC DONKEY TO DRINK FROM IT.

Hickory Dickory Dock,
Debmey climbed up the clock,
The clock struck one,
And the pendulum struck Debmey's head that's only one,
Hickory Dickory Dock,
Debmey felt the pain and he said he got fcuk,
Debmey in pain then climbed down the clock,
Cos he gotta go run see the doc'.

C'mon Debmey WHERE IS THE MENTION OF SEX IN THOSE SOORAS? WHERE ? WHERE? WHERE?

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Hehehehehehe.......... looks like Fuzzy have no answers to the overwhelming evidence that muhamad was indeed a filthy paedophile.

cheers

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 7-2-2007 03:14 AM
Hehehehehehe.......... looks like Fuzzy have no answers to the overwhelming evidence that muhamad was indeed a filthy paedophile.
cheers

Hehehehehe.. I don't have the answers you say? Looks like you do not have replies to the overwhelming cross-examination evidences that proves there was no SEX involved in the Bukhari verses you put up. Looks like you do not have replies to the overwhelming evidences provided that shows the word - "CONSUMMATE" - is also used to proclaim a realization or achievement of something. Looks like you do not have replies to the overwhelming evidences that shows that the word - "DAKHALA" -  has a more civilised definition of being submissive to a cause, other than a Christian SEXUALLY inclined overture of the act of inserting a protruding kinetic projectile.

The only thing that you've managed this far is to prove that you do have one mother-of-all-filthy-mouths and that's a proven God-given fact.
So where what else to you have going for the paedo charge? Why not touch on the subject of Jubayr? Maybe you can divert the filth that emerges from your mouth and not from what enters it onto Jubayr. Can we still play?

ARI FUZZMAN