Instant Death to Apostates in the Bible's Old and New Testaments

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
again you and all other muslims fail to see the point. you are justifying just because islam didnt say you should leave your spouse because they are ugly, so it makes what the shariah court ruled as ok?the point is not that the quran says you can leave your spouse because they ar ugly and cpnvert, you  are twisting my statements. the point is that islamic law is discriminatory towards non muslims ! the hindu wife has no rights at all ! does that seem right to you? he did not even have to divorce her, because since he is now a muslim, he can take more than 1 wife.

did he take the other wife as a second wife,or did he just desert his 1st wife?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
it has ALL to do with the religion, because ISLAM is the only religion that enforces religious laws, which is not proven and based only on beleif of ISLAM. becuase of islamic law, the hindu wife is ignored ! how can you not get the point?

IMO,it isnt the religion.
it is the PERSON.
the husband.it's his fault.(or the wife's)
what i mean,is if the husband was bored with his wife,and (IINM hinduism does not allow divorce) wants a divorce,which he cant have as a hindu,he would obviously look for other ways out of the marriage.
he should have told his wife that he wants to convert to Islam,and have her join him.(maybe things would work out differently?who knows)
if she doesnt want to,then thats her problem,he already did his part by informing her of his decision.
HOWEVER,if he did NOT tell her of his decision to convert,and marries a muslim woman secretly,it is hardly the religion's fault.
whatever it is,Syariah law only governs the muslims,as you know,so it is up to the individual on how he wants to live his life.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
again, you dont see the PROBLEM, how can a set of laws be JUST when it treats beleivers and non beleivers differently? Secular law does not discriminate based on your religion. why must people be treated differently? how can that be JUST and fair?everyone regardless of race, religion, whatever should be treated equally. in order to be fair to all peoples, then Islamic law shoudnt be implemented.

first of all,the syariah law is only for the believers,so obviously it would be void to those who dont believe in God/Islam.
it was always meant for Muslims only,no one else.
it will only seem unjust when a non muslim comes into the picture.
if we put the laws into place in a muslim only affair,it is just and fair.
i cant remember where i found this,but a non muslim lawyer(if im not mistaken,he's a lwayer ) acknowledged how the syariah law is indeed perfect.

the secular law doesnt discriminate,obviously,since it was meant for everyone,regardless of religion.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
if a victim is unable to produce 4 male witnesses, then the alledged rapist will go free. No modern evidence like DNA will be admissable in shariah court. so just because she cant get 4 witnesses, is it ok to let the rapist go free, eventhoug there will be other evidence like dna in sperm? can you honestly tell me this is JUST? no i do not have any links yet, but you do know islamic law right about rape right?

punishment for rapists in Islam:

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you.  And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

it may seem barbaric(in the eyes of most non muslims,everything islam does is barbaric,anyway) but just?
i think so.don't you?

as for the witnesses,it is a must(not sure of the number,some say 2,some 4) as the punishment is a very stern one(death penalty)
if we dont have witnesses,who are we going to believe?
what if the guy wears a condom?
and how do we know the woman got raped?
how would we know it wasnt consentual?

the witnesses are called for to remove doubt.
any woman can cry wolf..
maybe go on a date,and come back crying claiming she was raped,when it was indeed consentual.
how would you know who's telling the truth?
im not saying women are liars,but you cant discount the possibility of her lying.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
again you are attacking me personally, in many of my replies, i have restrained myself from attacking you or any other muslims, instead of attacking the person, i attack the opinion.

i didnt mean to attack you,like i said,it was just a stupid question(rhetorical question,if you will)
anyway,if you feel offended,my apologies
didnt mean to hurt you,was just wondering if all my answering would change/do anything..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
so  i expect you to do the same, we are supposed to be having a peaceful and intelligent debate with each other. for now, i do not wish to convert (revert) to islam, i do not like to be controllled legally by another court system. if you wish to debunk the site, please do, if not its allright. i dont doubt your religious zeal. i am sure when you have the time you would go through it. i didnt know converting me to islam is so important to you.

whether or not you convert to Islam,is none of my business.
thats between you and God.
and like i've said before,it's your right to be either a believer or a non believer,im just here like most forummers to help or answer the best i can

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
well good for you, but i dont have access to a computer all the time. just because i answer slowly doesnt mean i wont answer. be patient.

no problem :bgrin:

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
the news about it was quickly hushed by the mainstram media because it was offensive, so i do not have th verse he quoted, but sinc you wanted it, i will try my best to find it for you.

if you can,it would be best.
but if you cant,then no worries..
whatever pas says,i dont take much interest in,because as far as im concerned,the things politicians say in this world are at times, downright ridiculous.

just to add:
NO MUSLIM in their RIGHT MIND would let a convicted rapist/murderrer go.
regardless who the victim was,it is still murder.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
but thats the thing, in islam you cant have it your way, everything is already spelt out for you. any changes will be deemed blasphemy, and subject to punsihment, since the quran is "perfect" and "complete".lets say that islamic law is fully implemented in the near future,lina joy will be up for execution,

killing of apostates isnt mentioned in the Quran.(it is,however,stated in the Bible)
it was only done in the past,and not anymore.

why it was done:
Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say:  Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)."  To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it.  This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.

so there you go.
no more killing of apostates in Islam.
it is up to you whether you want to believe in Islam or not.

if you're wondering why the government doesnt allow malays or muslims in general to leave the religion,then i have no answers,as i know little of why the government does what it does,and that has no bearing on this topic/section of forum.cari.com.my

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
and even though you do not agree with killing her, you are not going to say anything am i right? you will just let it be, since the clerics know better right?

what can i do?
i doubt they would listen to me..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
lastly, please understand i am not arguing to bash islam for no reason. but your laws are discriminatory, and your attitude as a good muslim shows that you are allright with such discriminations, because you see it as JUST and FAIR. we as non muslims see JUSTICE and FAIRNESS as being treated equally, not by ones beleifs, beleifs should not matter in the name of justice.

dont forget that in my above replies,it is fair and just to muslims.
to non muslims,it isnt fair in their eyes,as it does not cover/involve them.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 01:39 PM
that so called theory of realtivity you mentioned in the quran isnt reffering to the same theory of relativity. that quranic verses means that suffering will be so great on those who disobey allah, that time will feel much longer than it actually is. this isnt the theory of realitivity. do you know what is the theory of relativity? einsten said that when a mass has a velocity close to the speed of light, time relative to another object that is moving much slower or stationary, will be slower relative to the object moving at near the speed of light. so the object moving at near speed of light, when it comes back to the stationary or slow moving object, the stationary object woould have aged more.

let us examine the quranic injuction.

<snip>

the verses show that time is relative.
it doesnt specifically mention einstein's theory.

Mgsrulz

just breezed through the faithfreedom site,wont post all cos there are so many(you can ask any,if you want..i dont want to waste my time on all )

[quote]
In the Surah of 慣he Resurrection

lost soul said-
mmm alfloss, all the best in your search to find true God.

thank you very much for your sincere and thoughtful wish for me.



msgrulz said-
IMO,it isnt the religion.
it is the PERSON.
the husband.it's his fault.(or the wife's)
what i mean,is if the husband was bored with his wife,and (IINM hinduism does not allow divorce) wants a divorce,which he cant have as a hindu,he would obviously look for other ways out of the marriage.
he should have told his wife that he wants to convert to Islam,and have her join him.(maybe things would work out differently?who knows)
if she doesnt want to,then thats her problem,he already did his part by informing her of his decision.
HOWEVER,if he did NOT tell her of his decision to convert,and marries a muslim woman secretly,it is hardly the religion's fault.
whatever it is,Syariah law only governs the muslims,as you know,so it is up to the individual on how he wants to live his life.

again you fail to see the point.if muslims and non muslims are treated differently, then there is no JUSTICE. it is the religion's fault, becuase the religion discriminates. bassically you are saying that it is allright to subjugate the non muslim wife because she didnt want to convert. is that allright? no it is not ! how can a set of law that discrimintaes be allowed to be practiced in this day and age? it is the religions fault for discriminating people based on beleif. if you do not see that, then i am wasting my time talking to you, because your justice system basically is trying to force everyone to be muslims in order to get fair justice.

mgsrulz said
as for the witnesses,it is a must(not sure of the number,some say 2,some 4) as the punishment is a very stern one(death penalty)
if we dont have witnesses,who are we going to believe?
what if the guy wears a condom?
and how do we know the woman got raped?
how would we know it wasnt consentual?

that is not the point, the point is there should be other types of evidences admissable in court in a rape case. just by basing justice on the statments of 2 or 4 witnesses , which in many cases impossible to find, then other types of evidence is still ruled out? so again the rapist goes free because he knows how shariah law works? JUST? FAIR? the point is not whether the rapist wears a condom or not, the point is all types of evidence must be admissable in court in order to produce JUSTICE. how would you feel if your sister is raped, and you can't get 2 or 4 witnesses? and the rapist goes free? how? and why the shariah court now refuse to try rape cases under its jurisdiction? is it because they know that that law will not bring justice?




mgsrulz said-

it will only seem unjust when a non muslim comes into the picture.
if we put the laws into place in a muslim only affair,it is just and fair.
i cant remember where i found this,but a non muslim lawyer(if im not mistaken,he's a lwayer ) acknowledged how the syariah law is indeed perfect

seem unjust? if it seems unjust then it is unjust. dont forget, there will always be a situation of non muslims being around in an islamic country.
so just because one non muslim says shariah law is perfect, then its ok for muslims to implement it then? there are many more who knows that shariah law is not perfect. question for you, if non muslims resist muslims from implementing shariah law, what would you as a good muslim do?
countries with secular law ensures that everybody get equal protection under the system of civil law, even muslims included.

mgsrulz said
it may seem barbaric(in the eyes of most non muslims,everything islam does is barbaric,anyway) but just?
i think so.don't you?

no i dont think everything in islam is barbaric, i just think islamic law and punishment is barbaric.and no, it is not Just.


mgsrulz said-

what can i do?
i doubt they would listen to me..

so no democracy in islamic country eh? acceptable to you? since you beleive the true islam doesnt kill apostates, then isnt it your duty to speak up and let the auhtorities know? isnt it your duty as a muslim to set the rules right as you beleive to be true? your conciense allows to just close one eye and say nothing if an apostate is to be killed by the authorities (or mob)?


mgsrulz said-
well,i agree it is an Islamic site,but take a look at what the webmaster has written and shown.
i myself had doubts initially as to all the filth contained in the bible,anti muslim sites,etc,but it all checked out.
whatever this site says is in the bible,is in the bible.you can google bible and search for the verses...you'd be amazed.



again i tell you, i have no interest in the bible,because the christians do not pose a threat to non beleivers justice and freedom. if it is corrupt, so what, christians can beleive whatever they want to beleive in, so can you, even if your quran is corrupt, it is not my problem. beleive, you are free to believe. i am not here to stop you from beleiving, but merely to try to make you see that islamic laws trespasses into private citizens lives and dictates to people what to beleive, and it is done by people, not ALLAH.if it is indeed ALLAH's rights, then he would be able to enforce his rights, because he is omnipresent, all seeing and all knowing (according to the quran, am i right ?).


again about theory of relativity in quran. it is not the same theory that we are talking about. it isnt even a theory. it merely states the horrible feeling of those who defy ALLAH  that they would face punsihment so great that even a day of punishment will seem much much longer. this concept of "relative feeling of time "already existed  since the existence of human beings. for instance, history does repeat itself, we always think that certain thing wont happen again. In julius caeser's time, he was murdered by members of his own senate. today we have thaksin sinwatra overtrown in a coup. we have battles fought over jealousy, as witnessed by the war of TROY. today we still have people fighting over a woman. when ancient man is being punished, for days, he will feel like he is being punished for months..this is the concept of relative feeling of time that the quran is talking about, not scientific quantifiable E=mc2 stuff.
i see that you are trying to prove the quran right by saying that it has scientific knowledge in it,so thereby giving you the right to bring religion into the realm of absolution, that islam is the true religion. i,m sorry but this argument fails. there is only 1 way that islam can be proven to be the true religion.
1. Allah HIMself must come to earth and instruct us again, and should any human being about to commit a sin, he can warn us of the consequences. if Allah HIMmself were to come and show HIMself, i would beleive immediately, why should i question, when i know he exist, for sure?not only me, but all the unbeleivers, and even the not faithfull muslims. ALLAH should be always present with us all the time.

thats why beleif in science and secular law is the best compromise to work with people of all religions. it does not discriminate, and everyone get s equal jsutice and oppurtunity to seek happiness in life. laws will only be based on tangible and mesurable merits, like murder is wrong, not intangible laws like jailing those muslims who eat in the day during ramadhan. for a crime to happen, there must be a victim. eating in the day during ramadhan does not harm anybody, so therefore it should not be enforced.

[ Last edited by  ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 01:20 PM ]

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
again you fail to see the point.if muslims and non muslims are treated differently, then there is no JUSTICE. it is the religion's fault, becuase the religion discriminates. bassically you are saying that it is allright to subjugate the non muslim wife because she didnt want to convert. is that allright? no it is not ! how can a set of law that discrimintaes be allowed to be practiced in this day and age? it is the religions fault for discriminating people based on beleif. if you do not see that, then i am wasting my time talking to you, because your justice system basically is trying to force everyone to be muslims in order to get fair justice.

believe what you will

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
that is not the point, the point is there should be other types of evidences admissable in court in a rape case. just by basing justice on the statments of 2 or 4 witnesses , which in many cases impossible to find, then other types of evidence is still ruled out? so again the rapist goes free because he knows how shariah law works? JUST? FAIR? the point is not whether the rapist wears a condom or not, the point is all types of evidence must be admissable in court in order to produce JUSTICE. how would you feel if your sister is raped, and you can't get 2 or 4 witnesses? and the rapist goes free? how? and why the shariah court now refuse to try rape cases under its jurisdiction? is it because they know that that law will not bring justice?

when did this happen?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
seem unjust? if it seems unjust then it is unjust. dont forget, there will always be a situation of non muslims being around in an islamic country.
so just because one non muslim says shariah law is perfect, then its ok for muslims to implement it then? there are many more who knows that shariah law is not perfect.

who?
any names?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
question for you, if non muslims resist muslims from implementing shariah law, what would you as a good muslim do?
countries with secular law ensures that everybody get equal protection under the system of civil law, even muslims included.

AFAIK,Muslims must first live under the country's ruling,then their own.
as long as it does not contradict or go against any Islamic law,it is permissable.
if the country's government doesnt want to implement syariah law,then thats their right.

and secular isnt perfect.
at least in some countries.

my uncle who lives in the UK,came here and told me if the husbands dont please their wives,their wives can take the house,the kids,and everything the husband owns,and dump him.

he would have no case in court.

this is far from fair.

you can live with a woman for 2 years,and she can dump you at any time,seizing control of your property.

i just found a site dedicated to this problem,but is from Canada:Fathers Battling Injustice

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
no i dont think everything in islam is barbaric, i just think islamic law and punishment is barbaric.and no, it is not Just.

i was not speaking specifically of you,just stating what most people think of Islam.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
so no democracy in islamic country eh? acceptable to you? since you beleive the true islam doesnt kill apostates, then isnt it your duty to speak up and let the auhtorities know? isnt it your duty as a muslim to set the rules right as you beleive to be true? your conciense allows to just close one eye and say nothing if an apostate is to be killed by the authorities (or mob)?

i would say something if i was against it myself,but like others in this forum know,i'm not against it.
in my eyes,an enemy of Islam,is an enemy of God.
plus,im not a scholar. :lol

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
again i tell you, i have no interest in the bible,because the christians do not pose a threat to non beleivers justice and freedom. if it is corrupt, so what, christians can beleive whatever they want to beleive in, so can you, even if your quran is corrupt, it is not my problem. beleive, you are free to believe. i am not here to stop you from beleiving, but merely to try to make you see that islamic laws trespasses into private citizens lives and dictates to people what to beleive, and it is done by people, not ALLAH.if it is indeed ALLAH's rights, then he would be able to enforce his rights, because he is omnipresent, all seeing and all knowing (according to the quran, am i right ?).

2 words:Free Will.
God gave humans free will to do whatever they want on earth.
if God were to help in whatever it is we do,then what good is free will?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
again about theory of relativity in quran. it is not the same theory that we are talking about. it isnt even a theory. it merely states the horrible feeling of those who defy ALLAH  that they would face punsihment so great that even a day of punishment will seem much much longer. this concept of "relative feeling of time "already existed  since the existence of human beings. for instance, history does repeat itself, we always think that certain thing wont happen again. In julius caeser's time, he was murdered by members of his own senate. today we have thaksin sinwatra overtrown in a coup. we have battles fought over jealousy, as witnessed by the war of TROY. today we still have people fighting over a woman. when ancient man is being punished, for days, he will feel like he is being punished for months..this is the concept of relative feeling of time that the quran is talking about, not scientific quantifiable E=mc2 stuff.
i see that you are trying to prove the quran right by saying that it has scientific knowledge in it,so thereby giving you the right to bring religion into the realm of absolution, that islam is the true religion. i,m sorry but this argument fails. there is only 1 way that islam can be proven to be the true religion.
1. Allah HIMself must come to earth and instruct us again, and should any human being about to commit a sin, he can warn us of the consequences. if Allah HIMmself were to come and show HIMself, i would beleive immediately, why should i question, when i know he exist, for sure?not only me, but all the unbeleivers, and even the not faithfull muslims. ALLAH should be always present with us all the time.

that time will come soon,but till then,it is up to us how we choose to live our lives.
and being a muslim at that time,would bring no good.time's up

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 4-10-2006 08:31 AM
thats why beleif in science and secular law is the best compromise to work with people of all religions. it does not discriminate, and everyone get s equal jsutice and oppurtunity to seek happiness in life. laws will only be based on tangible and mesurable merits, like murder is wrong, not intangible laws like jailing those muslims who eat in the day during ramadhan. for a crime to happen, there must be a victim. eating in the day during ramadhan does not harm anybody, so therefore it should not be enforced.

no,it is not entirely just.(visit the link i gave above,you can find other links in it,too..)
it may seem just for the most part,but there are some things that it is unfair in.

mgsrulz said
believe what you will

hah, then thats the end of it? just go on with our lives?


mgsrulz said

when did this happen?

a few years back, i will try to get the article for you, it was only published once in the mainstream papers, but malaysiakini ran the story longer, and the NGO Sisters In Islam did try to help the wife.he did not inform the wife, and he took the new wife as a second wife without divorcing the 1stwife. it is the fault of the religion because it did not make it mandatory for him to divorce the first wife, since he is a muslim, his rights are higher.

mgsrulz said-
and secular isnt perfect.
at least in some countries.

my uncle who lives in the UK,came here and told me if the husbands dont please their wives,their wives can take the house,the kids,and everything the husband owns,and dump him.

he would have no case in court.

this is far from fair.

you can live with a woman for 2 years,and she can dump you at any time,seizing control of your property.

i just found a site dedicated to this problem,but is from Canada

correct secular law isnt perfect, but it is still more fair towards everyone, and does not discriminate based on religion, plus secular can be changed to suit the times, unlike islamic law which is unchangeble, as soon as you even breathe the word "change", you will be punished as a heretic.

mgsrulz said
i was not speaking specifically of you,just stating what most people think of Islam

allright. point accepted.

mgsrulz said-
i would say something if i was against it myself,but like others in this forum know,i'm not against it.
in my eyes,an enemy of Islam,is an enemy of God.
plus,im not a scholar.

am i an enemy of ISLAM then, because i am trying to stop muslims from implementing their laws? what can be done to me then under Islamic law?
i have put forward so many points on equality amd speration of religion from state, but you already made up your mind that whatever is in ISLAM is correct, therefore every command no matter how cruel it seems must be carried out. i can tell that no amount of reasoning would sway you,so i am going to stop pushing this point. its just no use.

mgsrulz said-
2 words:Free Will.
God gave humans free will to do whatever they want on earth.
if God were to help in whatever it is we do,then what good is free will?


EXACTLY  ! then why are you muslims enforcing ISLAMIC law? that is a contradiction of freewill !

mgsrulz said
that time will come soon,but till then,it is up to us how we choose to live our lives.
and being a muslim at that time,would bring no good.time's up

thats what religious people, both christians and muslims have said time and time again hundreds of years ago, and many have already passed away. but then again, you would say that time is relative, right?

mgsrulz said-
no,it is not entirely just.(visit the link i gave above,you can find other links in it,too..)
it may seem just for the most part,but there are some things that it is unfair in.

yes, but remember, it can be changed. and it is still more Just than islamic law which is unchangable.

[ Last edited by  ALFLOSS at 5-10-2006 08:29 AM ]

i212

a few years back, i will try to get the article for you, it was only published once in the mainstream papers, but malaysiakini ran the story longer, and the NGO Sisters In Islam did try to help the wife.he did not inform the wife, and he took the new wife as a second wife without divorcing the 1stwife. it is the fault of the religion because it did not make it mandatory for him to divorce the first wife, since he is a muslim, his rights are higher.
-------------------

Actually, when married non-muslim(non ahli kitab) convert to Islam. Their marriage are automaticly ended. If husband and wife converts to islam, they need to re-marry according to Islam law.

That man and Sister On Islam must notice this.

Is the authority knows about his still married when he convert to Islam?
I can bet he also not telling the authority about it because, before/after Non-Muslim convert to Islam, its their responsibility to TALK with their spouse about it and do whatever they should do.
Its obvious that man not telling the truth.

Its the man fault, not religion.




EXACTLY  ! then why are you muslims enforcing ISLAMIC law? that is a contradiction of freewill !
----------------
Quran just give way to punish.
Judgement are from human. Thts the human Freewill.


You should understand ISLAMIC LAW judgement first.
e.g.:
Why Prophet Muhammad said need 4 witness for any crime judgement.
Thats mean we need the SOLID PROOF for conviction.(Please correct me about the fact.)

Non-muslim or some muslim misinterpret it as whatever crime happen, They only can punish someone when they have 4 reliable witness. Thats wrong.

What Prophet Muhammad teaching is, JUDGEMENT MUST BE MADE WITH SOLID PROOF before any punishment given.

What is meaning about ISLAMIC LAW in QURAN are the WAY to PUNISH People. HOW THE JUDGEMENT MADE? Its on HUMAN RIGHT.

i212

Additional.........
ISLAMIC LAW are JUST.

i212

Surah/Chapter 004 - An-Nis&acirc;. Verse 58.
Verily! Allah commands that you should render back the trusts to those, to whom they are due; and that when you JUDGE between men, you JUDGE with justice. Verily, how excellent is the teaching which He (Allah) gives you! Truly, Allah is Ever All&shy;Hearer, All&shy;Seer.  



Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-M&acirc;'idah. Verse 42.
(They like to) listen to falsehood, to devour anything forbidden. So if they come to you (O Muhammad SAW), either JUDGE between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least. And if you JUDGE, JUDGE with justice between them. Verily, Allah loves those who act justly.  




Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-M&acirc;'idah. Verse 45.
And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not JUDGE by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong&shy;doers - of a lesser degree).  



Surah/Chapter 006 - Al-An'&acirc;m. Verse 152.
"And come not near to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. JUDGE between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfil the Covenant of Allah, This He commands you, that you may remember.

1212 said-
Surah/Chapter 004 - An-Nis&acirc;. Verse 58.
Verily! Allah commands that you should render back the trusts to those, to whom they are due; and that when you JUDGE between men, you JUDGE with justice. Verily, how excellent is the teaching which He (Allah) gives you! Truly, Allah is Ever All&shy;Hearer, All&shy;Seer.  



Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-M&acirc;'idah. Verse 42.
(They like to) listen to falsehood, to devour anything forbidden. So if they come to you (O Muhammad SAW), either JUDGE between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least. And if you JUDGE, JUDGE with justice between them. Verily, Allah loves those who act justly.  




Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-M&acirc;'idah. Verse 45.
And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not JUDGE by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong&shy;doers - of a lesser degree).  



Surah/Chapter 006 - Al-An'&acirc;m. Verse 152.
"And come not near to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. JUDGE between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfil the Covenant of Allah, This He commands you, that you may remember.


all talk only. here is whats happening in reality. click here

and how about this

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

i212

you just read 4:89 ? see the rest.

4:88-91

Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.

You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

The story is about Disbeliever that becaome hypocrite and stab your back.
"Kira macam musuh dalam selimut la."



Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims

        you see the 3 condition?
        1) In Qisas for murder (convicting murder)
        2) married person who commit Illegal sexual intercause
        3) Revert from islam(apostate) and LEAVES THE MUSLIMS.

Its means those people that became apostate and after that become anti-muslim.(like hypocrites apostate)

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Same cases in here, you just take one part and left one part. read the full one.

8:12-13
(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

This is because they defied and disobeyed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

You see the meaning defied and disobeyed?
its people that make harm to ISLAM. Its a warning for them. Please read in full sentence and understand.


be continued........

i212

9:29, See the rest too...

O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure).So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Its about people who come to Makkah. We need fight people that want to make harm or "huru-hara" in Mecca.
Its about disbeliever that want to come inside Mecca.
Its a will to protect.
its something like a mother said to her son when she want to go out. "Jangan bagi sesiapa yang tak dikenali masuk ye. "


to be continue.....

barney50

i212,

Your excuse and explanation does not carry weight in support of what has been written.  Even reading the whole passage does not give a ligimate excuse. Whay would your Allah be so angry if one deos not believe Mohammed? So Allah is a jeal;ous GOD beside other GOD who have compassion and love for his creations? I think only SATAN would be jealous and angry and by the look of it Allah has the quality of that. The passage is full of hate and talk of punishment with fury which is not the quality of GOD but SATAN alone.  Striking off head and fingers? What kind of GOD is Allah who only think of doing harm to mankind instead of showing compassion and love. I do not have respect for such GOD if there is one as you claim.

Why do Musims worry if an apostate speaks bad about Islam? If you think your religion is a true path whay should you worry about some silly human being saying otherwise. Until and uless you have something to hide, may be the dark secret of Islam. You cannot convince me that your religin is the only true path and the only way you can convert me is by killing me otherwise you cannotand never will be able to do so. As far as I'm concern Islam is evil to the core that it deprives the basic right to chose one's faith..

i212

the full verse

48:29

Muhammad (SAW) is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are strong against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of (their) prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Taurat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad SAW till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise).

Its mean MUSLIM need to stay together to fight people who harming ISLAM.
Like this forum, we stand together to Defend our Faith. Right?
And most people that bash ISLAM are disbeliever, Even we give fact, they will not believe. RIGHT?


About 8:39

Read carefully... I Take it from beginning.

8:35 - 40
Their Salat (prayer) at the House (of Allah, i.e. the Ka'bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Therefore taste the punishment because you used to disbelieve.

Verily, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend it; but in the end it will become anguish for them. Then they will be overcomed. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto Hell.

In order that Allah may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islamic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers.

Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Maula (Patron, Lord, Protector and Supporter, etc.), (what) an Excellent Maula, and (what) an Excellent Helper!

when you read 2-3++ time, you will find that the verse are about disbeliever in Makkah that make fun of Allah command and make Fitnah about ISLAM. Nothing to do with Good Non-Muslim.


to be continue......

i212

Barney50,

What you do to people who make fun of you, say you are blood sucker, killer, perform adultery, etc(at your back) and in front of you, that man say you are good, handsome.

when you judge the verse with hatred.. you will get another meaning.

i212

4:11-12, Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children抯 (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

4:11-12
Allah commands you as regards your children's (inheritance); to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if (there are) only daughters, two or more, their share is two thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half. For parents, a sixth share of inheritance to each if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers or (sisters), the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies he may have bequeathed or debts. You know not which of them, whether your parents or your children, are nearest to you in benefit, (these fixed shares) are ordained by Allah. And Allah is Ever AllKnower, AllWise.

In that which your wives leave, your share is a half if they have no child; but if they leave a child, you get a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. In that which you leave, their (your wives) share is a fourth if you leave no child; but if you leave a child, they get an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of lagacies he (or she) may have bequeathed or debts, so that no loss is caused (to anyone). This is a Commandment from Allah; and Allah is Ever AllKnowing, MostForbearing.

These are the limits (set by) Allah (or ordainments as regards laws of inheritance), and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), to abide therein, and that will be the great success.

its about faraid. do not know what your point.

to be continue

i212

those verses you quote are only the nice ones, nice sugar coated ones for us to hear. lets say we do allow you to implement your just islamic law. then a few years later, one your brethen will say, "hey , how come we are not enforcing everything in the Quran? We must also enforce the other (not so nice) commandments, or ALLAH will be displeased, since we are already implementing shariah, lets go ALL the way, and follow everything!" Then we non muslims will be doomed to subjugation, like the verses i just quoted. Is it possible for you to ignore those discriminatory verses?
--------------

Its up to you to know the Truth.
Allah command on punishment are Just. Only human misinterpreted it(mostly Non-Muslim and Misled Muslim) for their own desire.

barney50

i212,

Don't you know about "WILL"? Why need Islamic law when you can write a will to your next of kin. You can decide whom to give and in what propotion. So, no need for Islamic law to teach us about division of property.

Just because a person diblieve your path should be punished? Why? So, your religion is just a hoax and so you feel anger at whoever mock your religion. If your is a true religion as you claimed why be angry let him mock for only he becomes the loser. But hwen you get angry and retaliate it becomes a question of who is right and who is wrong. Than there is no end to the argument and fist fight and blood shed. This wil continue for centuries. That is why Islam  converted others with sword one hand and quran in the other. Otherwise Iraq, Afghanistan and Persia of their original following and  well developed today. Islam had destroyed all that jsut because they refused to convert.

The bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer) is not only in Islam but in other religions too so that is not a landmark acheivement for Islam. Islam just followed other's path in paying homage to GOD. Going round the Kaaba is nothing new as you can see millions of Hindus going ropund the temple daily in respect to GOD and the house of prayer. Tell me something new that I do not know.

snipersnake

Originally posted by barney50 at 5-10-2006 05:01 PM
i212,
Just because a person diblieve your path should be punished? Why? So, your religion is just a hoax and so you feel anger at whoever mock your religion. If your is a true religion as you claimed why be angry let him mock for only he becomes the loser. But hwen you get angry and retaliate it becomes a question of who is right and who is wrong. Than there is no end to the argument and fist fight and blood shed. This wil continue for centuries. That is why Islam  converted others with sword one hand and quran in the other. Otherwise Iraq, Afghanistan and Persia of their original following and  well developed today. Islam had destroyed all that jsut because they refused to convert.

funny thing, when muhammad entered mecca, not even one fragment of blood was spilled. and u need to learn world history.

The bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer) is not only in Islam but in other religions too so that is not a landmark acheivement for Islam. Islam just followed other's path in paying homage to GOD. Going round the Kaaba is nothing new as you can see millions of Hindus going ropund the temple daily in respect to GOD and the house of prayer. Tell me something new that I do not know.  

1. we dont bow to statues/ humans/animal
2.we bow ALL IN ONE DIRECTION..ALL ACCROSS THE WORLD.

[ Last edited by  snipersnake at 5-10-2006 05:30 PM ]

i212 said
You see the meaning defied and disobeyed?
its people that make harm to ISLAM. Its a warning for them. Please read in full sentence and understand.


be continued........
so if we harm islam, not muslims, then it gives you the right to kill us, very Just eh?


i212 said

when you read 2-3++ time, you will find that the verse are about disbeliever in Makkah that make fun of Allah command and make Fitnah about ISLAM. Nothing to do with Good Non-Muslim.


to be continue......

So what is a good non muslim? a non muslim that dont protest if their rights in a muslim country is of a 3rd class citizen? a subjugated non muslim? of course you say no, because you never put your self in our shoes. we want equal treatment for you also, but you want superior traetment for yourselves only. see how biased you are?

i212 said
Its mean MUSLIM need to stay together to fight people who harming ISLAM.
Like this forum, we stand together to Defend our Faith. Right?
And most people that bash ISLAM are disbeliever, Even we give fact, they will not believe. RIGHT?

yes you can defend by words, not by actual pysicahl punsihments. Get it? but your quran is prescribing actual punishments, see what you people did to ayah pin's commune. If you got facts i will beleive, but you DON'T have any facts!!! Quoting from a book isnt facts. For instance if i told you i want to sell you a car that is able to fly, and only cost RM50000, would you beleive me? Youwould ask me for proof , correct? But something so intangible like your way to connect with God, which is Islam, i just have to beleive by you muutering some "holy" words..you are saying i must beleive there is a supreme unseen diety that controls the world, but His controls are not apparent, and He is supreme over other people's diety (YAHWEH...and others) so just take our word for it for we already given you "proofs",so accept our divine laws, even if they discriminate and subjugate you, if you want justice, then be one of us, so easy right?. well your proofs isnt proof, as you require me to proof that the car i sell to you can fly, i require proof that your ALLAH is real and his laws are real, otherwise dont subjugate us, we wont stand for it.


i212 said
Its up to you to know the Truth.
Allah command on punishment are Just. Only human misinterpreted it(mostly Non-Muslim and Misled Muslim) for their own desire


So if the muslim authorities dont implement just muslim laws, will you speak out against them and correct them?


snipersnake said
funny thing, when muhammad entered mecca, not even one fragment of blood was spilled. and u need to learn world history.

really? there are other alternative historians who say otherwise. so if some one did resist, then a lot of blood will be spilled right? After all anything is justifiable to create a just islamic state.

sniperword said-
1. we dont bow to statues/ humans/animal
2.we bow ALL IN ONE DIRECTION..ALL ACCROSS THE WORLD

barney50 didnt said you bow to animal or whatever, you still bow, like other religions before Islam.

[ Last edited by  ALFLOSS at 6-10-2006 08:35 AM ]

i212

From AFLOSS
so if we harm islam, not muslims, then it gives you the right to kill us, very Just eh?

We take some simple example:
What would you if someone attack your country and try to destroy it?


From AFLOSS
So what is a good non muslim? a non muslim that dont protest if their rights in a muslim country is of a 3rd class citizen? a subjugated non muslim? of course you say no, because you never put your self in our shoes. we want equal treatment for you also, but you want superior traetment for yourselves only. see how biased you are?

Can you try to examine Muslim who live at Non-Muslim Country?.
Near example:
In singapore, Muslim children can not  where their hijab when going to School. can you explain that.?
See in Malaysia. Did Gov prohibit Non-Muslim to practice their Faith?


From AFLOSS
yes you can defend by words, not by actual pysicahl punsihments. Get it? but your quran is prescribing actual punishments, see what you people did to ayah pin's commune.

hmmm. he Are you Ayah Pin believer?.
What I know, NOT EVEN MUSLIM dont that to CORRUPT religion organization. (Aum Shin Ri Kyu, House Of David, KKK)
Can you explain about that?
Corruption can lead to destruction.

From AFLOSS
you are saying i must beleive there is a supreme unseen diety that controls the world............
i require proof that your ALLAH is real and his laws are real, otherwise dont subjugate us, we wont stand for it.

Not must believe. But Should believe. Different thing.


From AFLOSS
So if the muslim authorities dont implement just muslim laws, will you speak out against them and correct them?

If they not really follow the Law and misconduct it. YES.

question to AFLOSS(in your opinion)

Can you explain how LIving Thing Existed?