Sebab kenapa Muhammad dan Jesus tak harus diterima menurut Hinduism.

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

Perhaps to our little knowledge we see something as wrong, but Allah is Al-'Ilm, He knows what is wrong and what is right.

First of all, I said GODS (with an S) which means divine beings under the Supreme beings. IF these divine beings themselves can go wrong, then how can anyone (like your Muhammad's sahabats can never go wrong?). Also, I like to remind you of the story of Adam. Even in your own scriptures, when Adam was shown to the angels, many believe that he (and his descendants) could cause great destruction and suffering, did they not? So, if angels themselves can be proven wrong, how can your Muhammad say these four type of people (humans nevertheless) can never go wrong?

What Muhammad s.a.w. meant for these people cannot go wrong is that He s.a.w is referring to their understandings of Islam especially when it comes to Akidah.

Sorry, I don't believe that. Do you know WHY? because if Angels themselves who lived thousands of years and much closer to God could make errors (including follow the Devil and rebels against God), then WHO ARE THOSE FOUR PEOPLE that they can never go wrong? Akidah or not, that is bullshit.

Just like Hinduism, you DO believe in the concept of having a Guru, right?

Having a Guru is optional, not necessity in Life. Many Hindus are without a Guru. Having a Guru doesn't make one a Hindu anymore than not having one could make a person less of a Hindu. A hindu choose a Guru to further his understanding of the belief and the Vedas, but he must always remember that God is the first and utmost important Guru of them all. A human Guru's task is to guide his student to the ultimate Guru, NOT proclaim his own intelligence and virtue. Your Islam is more toward lifting Muhammad's status rather than bring Man to God.

The lesson from the Quran cannot be finished until the end of time; the knowledge contains in it is so vast that people nowadays are still digging knowledge from it.

Then one should not follow your Al Quran if it is not finished or that people still need to dig information from it. An unfinished lessons will never lead Man toward God as it will always leave behind doubts in the minds of the followers.

Your question highlighted above doesn't quite make any sense as Muhammad s.a.w himself is a student with Allah as his teacher; you claimed that a person, with God as his teacher, cannot finish studying.

No, I said a person who have God as his Guru cannot teach others. I also said that a person who takes God as a student continuously learns from the day he is born to the day he dies. IF Muhammad took God as his Guru, then he broke Chaitya Gurukolam's rule by teaching what he learn to others. A student cannot teach another student. Fullstop.

I'm also not quite sure whether your 'meditation' is equal to our 'daily prayer'.  

No, it is not.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 1-11-2013 08:40 AM
by Gunblade712

First of all, I said GODS (with an S) which means divine beings under the Supreme beings. IF these divine beings themselves can go wrong, then how can anyone (like your Muhammad's sahabats can never go wrong?). Also, I like to remind you of the story of Adam. Even in your own scriptures, when Adam was shown to the angels, many believe that he (and his descendants) could cause great destruction and suffering, did they not? So, if angels themselves can be proven wrong, how can your Muhammad say these four type of people (humans nevertheless) can never go wrong?

You're taking the story of the creation of Adam? When did the angels go wrong? Mankind are known for causing great destruction and suffering. Muhammad s.a.w. the four types of people can never go wrong when it comes to 'AKIDAH'. I've explained about akidah in my previous postings. Let me know if you want me to repeat it with a much more easier words.

Sorry, I don't believe that. Do you know WHY? because if Angels themselves who lived thousands of years and much closer to God could make errors (including follow the Devil and rebels against God), then WHO ARE THOSE FOUR PEOPLE that they can never go wrong? Akidah or not, that is bullshit.

As far as I remember, we don't believe in the concept of "fallen angels", hence the ulama' are still discussing whether Iblis was an angel before he was cast out of Jannah. As far as I remember, the most prominent opinion is that Iblis were NOT an angel before he was labelled as 'Iblis' can cast out of Jannah. The simple prove to support this is that Angels were made from light, while Iblis were made from smokeless fire.

As I've explained, they can never go wrong on Akidah. It would be best if you understand the concept of "Akidah" in Islam before you use vulgarities.

Having a Guru is optional, not necessity in Life. Many Hindus are without a Guru. Having a Guru doesn't make one a Hindu anymore than not having one could make a person less of a Hindu. A hindu choose a Guru to further his understanding of the belief and the Vedas, but he must always remember that God is the first and utmost important Guru of them all. A human Guru's task is to guide his student to the ultimate Guru, NOT proclaim his own intelligence and virtue. Your Islam is more toward lifting Muhammad's status rather than bring Man to God.

Alright. I believe the same concept is followed by Islam, though we are inclined towards having a guru so that the guru can teach a Muslim about the four important knowledge that I've explained.

Lifting Muhammad s.a.w's status is according to what Allah ordered us. He s.a.w is still a man, he s.a.w. got married and walk to the market. He s.a.w bled, cried, ate, walked, slept, and died. Whenever a person wanted to revert to Islam, the proclam of faith is to claim that 'There is no God except Allah, and Muhammad is the MESSENGER of Allah'. Muhammad s.a.w is regard as the most noble of Allah's messenger, no more than that. We have countless hadith of Muhammad s.a.w stating that he s.a.w. do not want people to uphold his status more than a human being as the Christian did to Isa Al-Masih.

In short, Islam is about surrendering to Allah, and being thankful to Muhammad s.a.w for all that he taught us. No more, no less. If you feel that we are lifting Muhammad s.a.w's status, do bring forth evidence from our text so that we can discuss and perhaps, I can help you to understang it better insyaAllah.

Then one should not follow your Al Quran if it is not finished or that people still need to dig information from it. An unfinished lessons will never lead Man toward God as it will always leave behind doubts in the minds of the followers.

I'm not quite sure why do you say this; the Quran is the literal Word of Allah and as both of us agree, the Knowledge of God is limitless. I'm not sure about Vedas's status in Hinduism, though. I believe that it's the word of God (according to Hinduism) and up until today, Hindus are still digging the Book for knowledge. Am I right?

No, I said a person who have God as his Guru cannot teach others. I also said that a person who takes God as a student continuously learns from the day he is born to the day he dies. IF Muhammad took God as his Guru, then he broke Chaitya Gurukolam's rule by teaching what he learn to others. A student cannot teach another student. Fullstop.

Not necessarily fullstop, Seph. Both of us agrees that all knowledge comes from God. Even by human's observation, if God does not permit him to see, he is unable to see. Even through the deepest meditation, if God doesn't give the knowledge, a human cannot obtain the knowledge. Now, does Hinduism agree with this, or does Hinduism believe that you can obtain knowledge from other than god?

No, it is not.

That's very certain of you. Have you prayed 2 rakaat in Fajr? Or have you prayed 2 rakaat in tahajjud/witr?

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

Mankind are known for causing great destruction and suffering.

An action of taking a newborn baby and judge it and his descendant to be murderers, destroyers and sinners even before anyone is born IS WRONG. Then again, your whole religion is based on labelling non-Muslims as pagans and sinners, so I really not that surprised. Akidah or not, to say that a group of humans cannot make mistake is IGNORANT AND ARROGANT.

... we don't believe in the concept of "fallen angels", hence the ulama' are still discussing whether Iblis was an angel before he was cast out of Jannah.

In Judaism, Lucifer wasn't just any Angel, he was an Arch-Angel, which means he stood beside God with others like Micheal, Gabriel and such. You can debate all you want, but bottomline is - Lucifer was an Angel before he fell from Grace (this the status Fallen Angels).

We have countless hadith of Muhammad s.a.w stating that he s.a.w. do not want people to uphold his status more than a human being as the Christian did to Isa Al-Masih.

Countless? Then show me THREE.

I'm not quite sure why do you say this; the Quran is the literal Word of Allah and as both of us agree, the Knowledge of God is limitless.

IF God's knowledge is limitless, then why do you limit it to one book (Al Quran) and One Messanger? IF knowledge is limitless, it is impossible for it to be contained in a single book.

I believe that it's the word of God (according to Hinduism) and up until today, Hindus are still digging the Book for knowledge. Am I right?

The Vedas are the Words of the Creator (Brahma) but it is not THE WORD. It will be useful for a certain Yuga while Humans are still infants and as they mature, the Words will be updated regularly. That is the Work of God through Avatars like Sri Rama (who taught humans about human's responsibility toward his society, family and household) and Sri Krishna gave Bhavagad Gita (God's Songs) for Man to follow during this Kali yuga. Even the Buddha is considered a person who came to correct our mistakes. They do not give any religion or belief for us to follow but upgrade our belief as we progress as human being.

Now, does Hinduism agree with this, or does Hinduism believe that you can obtain knowledge from other than god?

Just because we agree with some details, that doesn't mean that we are (worshipping) the same God. We know from History that Mankind can take other people's religion and modify them to suit their needs. Roman Church did it with the Judaism and created Christianity, so why couldn't Muhammad do the same with Islam? Our beliefs have warned us strictly not to follow any belief which is against the Vedas and islam is one such belief.

That's very certain of you. Have you prayed 2 rakaat in Fajr? Or have you prayed 2 rakaat in tahajjud/witr?

No, but I know who I'm praying to.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 2-11-2013 05:45 PM
by Gunblade712

An action of taking a newborn baby and judge it and his descendant to be murderers, destroyers and sinners even before anyone is born IS WRONG. Then again, your whole religion is based on labelling non-Muslims as pagans and sinners, so I really not that surprised. Akidah or not, to say that a group of humans cannot make mistake is IGNORANT AND ARROGANT.

Labelling non-Muslims as sinner is Allah's rights, not us. We are ordered to treat you people equally.

It would be unfair for you to say 'Akidah or not', it seems as if you're ignoring the explanation about the fields of Islamic studies. Do you understand what Akidah means in the first place?

In Judaism, Lucifer wasn't just any Angel, he was an Arch-Angel, which means he stood beside God with others like Micheal, Gabriel and such. You can debate all you want, but bottomline is - Lucifer was an Angel before he fell from Grace (this the status Fallen Angels).

We're not Judaism. We are Muslims and we upholds Islam. We follow the 4 sources as per what I have explained. With that being said, show us one proof from the Quran, mentioning that Iblis was an archangel before he was labeled as 'Iblis'.

Countless? Then show me THREE.

Even better, I'll show you the Quranic verses stating Muhammad's status :

"Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him..." (Quran, 3:144)
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah..." (Quran, 48:29)
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."(Quran, 33:40)

And one hadith about his status first :

"Dari Ibnu Abbas, dia mendengat Umar berkata di atas mimbar, “Saya mendengar Nabi shallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam bersabda, “Janganlah kalian terlalu berlebih-lebihan kepadaku sebagaimana orang-orang Nasrani telah berlebih-lebihan kepada Isa bin Maryam, sesunggunhya aku hanyalah seorang hamba Allah maka katakanlah hamba Allah dan RasulNya” HR Al-Bukhari no 3445, 6830

Once you get to processes these proofs, we can proceed further, insyaAllah.

IF God's knowledge is limitless, then why do you limit it to one book (Al Quran) and One Messanger? IF knowledge is limitless, it is impossible for it to be contained in a single book.

The Quran is a guidance, not an 'encyclopedia' of ALL God's Knowledge. By guidance, I mean it's a manual for mankind. If we do the method of qias, a person who wrote a manual will not usually tell you EVERYTHING about the product; he'll just write and give you knowledges of what you should know about the product.

EVEN SO, the Quran's knowledge is still being studied and digged as we speak. 1400 years have passed and scholars (both Muslims and non-Muslims) are still studying the book.

Again, I would like to stress out that the Quran is a guidance for mankind, not an encyclopedia of Allah's knowledge. There are knowledges that Allah hides it from mankind. We also have prove for this. Let me know if you wish for me to present it here.

The Vedas are the Words of the Creator (Brahma) but it is not THE WORD. It will be useful for a certain Yuga while Humans are still infants and as they mature, the Words will be updated regularly. That is the Work of God through Avatars like Sri Rama (who taught humans about human's responsibility toward his society, family and household) and Sri Krishna gave Bhavagad Gita (God's Songs) for Man to follow during this Kali yuga. Even the Buddha is considered a person who came to correct our mistakes. They do not give any religion or belief for us to follow but upgrade our belief as we progress as human being.

Thank you for your explanation. Is is safe for me to understand that the Vedas goes through updates and changes, as times goes by, via Avatars?

Just because we agree with some details, that doesn't mean that we are (worshipping) the same God. We know from History that Mankind can take other people's religion and modify them to suit their needs. Roman Church did it with the Judaism and created Christianity, so why couldn't Muhammad do the same with Islam? Our beliefs have warned us strictly not to follow any belief which is against the Vedas and islam is one such belief.

I understand. I just wanted to make sure that we believe in the same concept : ALL knowledges, whether perceived or not, comes from GOD. NO CREATURE can obtain knowledge from OTHER THAN GOD. Once we're agreeing on this, I'll proceed further.

And yes, I understand the prohibition to abstain yourself from following other belief which is against the Vedas; we were given the same prohibition concept in Islam. We are to reject religions other that Islam. However, 'rejecting' doesn't mean 'disrespecting'.

The point that I've highlighted above is interesting and I believe it requires it's own thread. Let's start one thread and discuss about this, shall we?

No, but I know who I'm praying to.

As do I. So it would be best if we stop assuming as if we know each other's method of 'meditating' and respect each other's method instead. Both of us have one thing in common regarding this; we're doing the best that we can to obtain knowledge about our religion and getting close the The Creator, regardless of the differences of concept that we have pertaining to 'The Creator'.

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

Labelling non-Muslims as sinner is Allah's rights, not us.

Then labeling your god as false Arabic nonsense is our right.

It would be unfair for you to say 'Akidah or not', it seems as if you're ignoring the explanation about the fields of Islamic studies. Do you understand what Akidah means in the first place?  

I don't give a damn what Akidah means in Arabic. FACT - To say that ANY HUMAN CANNOT MAKE MISTAKE is a statement of ignorant and arrogant, especially after 1,400 years later. THAT IS PLAIN STUPID.

We're not Judaism.

Yes, you do not follow Judaism, so why do you (Islamic belief) steal from Judaism which you do not follow? It is like naming your son with your neighbour's name and still claim your wife didn't sleep with him.

Hello, IF you want to give a verse, GIVE IT FULL.

http://quran.com/3/144 :

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

Sounds like your Allah is begging Muslims not to leave Islam after Muhammad dies like all the other messengers before him. Why is your Allah begging Muslims not to leave Islam if and when Muhammad dies, if Islam is so damn perfect and Muhammad is just one messanger? Answer : cos Allah is Muhammad's imagination.

http://quran.com/48/29

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

Muhammad is a Messenger and those who follows him are forceful against disbelievers. Nice messenger. It is clearly stated that the reasons why Muslims even bothered to pray is to piss off non-believers? Which other messengers (like Musa and Isa) taught their followers to pray just to piss off other people? Matter a fact, I remember clearly Jesus tell his followers to go to their home and pray in privacy.

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."(Quran, 33:40)

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men means what?

If we do the method of qias, a person who wrote a manual will not usually tell you EVERYTHING about the product; he'll just write and give you knowledges of what you should know about the product.  

And a person who writes ANY manual will not state that that manual is the ONLY manual to come out (unless he have no more products to produce) and still be willing to listen to complains from the users to improve his products in the future. By stating that Al Quran is the LAST manual (to be produced), you seems to state that Islam is a product which cannot be questioned by his followers no matter how long it takes. Furthermore, like any products, as time passes, the product becomes obsolete and requires update. Your Allah doesn't update his product, nor send another messenger to update it. So what is the use of your Allah's all-knowing knowledge IF his products continued to become obsolete over the time?

Thank you for your explanation. Is is safe for me to understand that the Vedas goes through updates and changes, as times goes by, via Avatars?

Yes, there are updates in Hinduism. First version was the four Vedas which was given to Manu and his descendants (modern humans). Second updates are the Upanishads and the puranas (Smirthi) which tells the stories of what had happened before Manu as well as after Manu (Ramayana and Mahabratha Epic). And finally update (so far) is the Bhavagad Gita (5,000 years ago). Buddha is not an update but correction to the belief system due to Mankind (like Caste System and Blind-obedience to Rituals without Faith).  Hinduism is continually updated even today by the Trinity (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva).

And yes, I understand the prohibition to abstain yourself from following other belief which is against the Vedas; we were given the same prohibition concept in Islam.

I'm sorry, you are WRONG HERE. You think we abstain ourselves from following other beliefs because we believe they (other beliefs) are false the same way Islam thinks of others (beliefs). You are wrong. ONLY in our belief, you can find qoute like this :

Rig-Veda declares, “One alone exists, sages call it by various names” (1-164-46).

Hindus do not treat Muslims with kindness because Hindus are fearful of Muslims nor do we hide ill-intent like Muslims do against others. We do not treat Christians with kindness because Hindus wants their money or women or power. Hindus treat them as equals because HINDUISM BASIC STATE THAT ALL MAN WORSHIP THE SAME GOD. FULL STOP. However, Hinduism also warn Mankind that Demons and those who worship false things could rise up and force devotees to worship what they worship. That is why Hindus are careful and abstain themselves from accepting Islam. It is not our of disrespect toward Islam either.

So it would be best if we stop assuming as if we know each other's method of 'meditating'

Fine, I could agree with that.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 7-11-2013 09:36 AM
by Gunblade712

Then labeling your god as false Arabic nonsense is our right.

Who gave you the right?

I don't give a damn what Akidah means in Arabic. FACT - To say that ANY HUMAN CANNOT MAKE MISTAKE is a statement of ignorant and arrogant, especially after 1,400 years later. THAT IS PLAIN STUPID.

Muhammad s.a.w. said it, so OBVIOUSLY the statement MUST BE TAKEN in the context of Islamic teachings. Stating you don't 'give a damn' about Akidah means you're taking Muhammad s.a.w's word and put it into your own opinion and perspective. In this case, you can just interpret it according to what you believe, not according to what Muhammad s.a.w. meant.

This is HIGHLY unfair and SHOULD NOT BE DONE by an intellect of ANY RELIGION!

Yes, you do not follow Judaism, so why do you (Islamic belief) steal from Judaism which you do not follow? It is like naming your son with your neighbour's name and still claim your wife didn't sleep with him.

Hello, IF you want to give a verse, GIVE IT FULL.

Steal from Judaism? As far as we're concern, Judaism is created by the people following Moses a.s., not Moses a.s. himself. He never gave the name 'Judaism' to the religion that he's conveying. So why do you say we are 'stealing', when we believe that Moses a.s. is actually a 'Muslim' (a person submitting to the Will of Allah)?

Not sure what you mean by your question highlighted above, though. You are the ones who claimed that Iblis was once an angel before he fell, so obviously you should provide us with proof to support your claim. In case you forget, allow me to refresh your memory. You said :

post #41

Sorry, I don't believe that. Do you know WHY? because if Angels themselves who lived thousands of years and much closer to God could make errors (including follow the Devil and rebels against God),

post #43

In Judaism, Lucifer wasn't just any Angel, he was an Arch-Angel, which means he stood beside God with others like Micheal, Gabriel and such. You can debate all you want, but bottomline is - Lucifer was an Angel before he fell from Grace (this the status Fallen Angels).

If there was no prove from Islam's scripture, it would be best for you to explain the misconception/misunderstanding that you've had on our religion.

Sounds like your Allah is begging Muslims not to leave Islam after Muhammad dies like all the other messengers before him. Why is your Allah begging Muslims not to leave Islam if and when Muhammad dies, if Islam is so damn perfect and Muhammad is just one messanger? Answer : cos Allah is Muhammad's imagination.

Seph, did you read the same verse completely, or did you just took half of it? Allow me to quote again :

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful. (Quran 3:144)

Muhammad is a Messenger and those who follows him are forceful against disbelievers. Nice messenger. It is clearly stated that the reasons why Muslims even bothered to pray is to piss off non-believers? Which other messengers (like Musa and Isa) taught their followers to pray just to piss off other people? Matter a fact, I remember clearly Jesus tell his followers to go to their home and pray in privacy.

Again, you're taking a Quran's verse and use your own interpretation against it. Would you prefer for us to explain the verse in the correct understanding, or are you just planning on dissing us and use your own interpretation of the verse? As far as I remember, a holy book should be studied according to the language that it was revealed and according to the reason behind it's revelation. The same can be said about Vedas, hence it should be applied to all holy books including Quran.

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men means what?

Sorry, in my tafsir class I have not yet arrived at this verse. However, I can ask for the tafsir from my Quran's teacher and I'll inform you on the story behind the verse's revelation and the arabic usage of the verse. Thank you for asking.

And a person who writes ANY manual will not state that that manual is the ONLY manual to come out (unless he have no more products to produce) and still be willing to listen to complains from the users to improve his products in the future. By stating that Al Quran is the LAST manual (to be produced), you seems to state that Islam is a product which cannot be questioned by his followers no matter how long it takes. Furthermore, like any products, as time passes, the product becomes obsolete and requires update. Your Allah doesn't update his product, nor send another messenger to update it. So what is the use of your Allah's all-knowing knowledge IF his products continued to become obsolete over the time?

Because, unlike the manual written by human hands, the Quran was sent down as the Last Testament, the 'last manual' that can be followed until the end of time. Though the 'product' (humans) goes towards an 'update', the Quran can STILL be used and be followed even by the most 'updated of humans'. Bear in mind that humans can be updated through knowledge alone. No matter how much a person knows, he cannot bypass the knowledge given by the Quran. Both of us agrees that the Knowledge of The Creator is limitless, and the Quran is a part of these knowledges sent down to mankind.

However, I disagree when you say that Islam cannot be questioned. The Prophet s.a.w were given questions by not only the Muslims, but non-Muslims alike. In fact, Islam spreads and the knowledge of the scholar improves because people asked questions. Problem arises when people asked with the intention to provoke; even if we gave them the correct explanation/elaboration, they will still say 'i don't give a damn' and continue to provoke and make enemies with the Muslim. Sadly, when we retalite with a little bit of harshness towards these people, they will claim us to be a 'terrorist' or some other bad labelling.

Yes, there are updates in Hinduism. First version was the four Vedas which was given to Manu and his descendants (modern humans). Second updates are the Upanishads and the puranas (Smirthi) which tells the stories of what had happened before Manu as well as after Manu (Ramayana and Mahabratha Epic). And finally update (so far) is the Bhavagad Gita (5,000 years ago). Buddha is not an update but correction to the belief system due to Mankind (like Caste System and Blind-obedience to Rituals without Faith).  Hinduism is continually updated even today by the Trinity (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva).

Ah, thank you for explaining to us about your holy scriptures and for pointing to us about Buddha. Out of topic : Is Siddharta Gautama considered as a Hindu after he have attained Nirvana?

and according to your belief, during modern times, does Hindu's scripture still receives updates from The Creator?

Hindus do not treat Muslims with kindness because Hindus are fearful of Muslims nor do we hide ill-intent like Muslims do against others. We do not treat Christians with kindness because Hindus wants their money or women or power. Hindus treat them as equals because HINDUISM BASIC STATE THAT ALL MAN WORSHIP THE SAME GOD. FULL STOP. However, Hinduism also warn Mankind that Demons and those who worship false things could rise up and force devotees to worship what they worship. That is why Hindus are careful and abstain themselves from accepting Islam. It is not our of disrespect toward Islam either.

Thank you for this explanation, seph. This helps us to understand devoted Hindus better. We are also taught that the other religion worship One God, just that their interpretation differs. I know there are some people that disagrees with me, but from the lineage of teachers that I've met, they explain to me the very same thing; that most religion worship the One Creator; it's just that their interpretation on Akidah differs from us. The Quran says :

And if thou (Muhammad) ask them: Who created the heavens and the earth, they will surely answer: The Mighty, the Knower created them; (Glorious Quran; 43:9)

And in fact, though we're practising STRICT MONOTHEISM and STRICTLY NO STATUES, we were ordered by Allah to NOT INSULT OTHER RELIGION AND WHATEVER THAT THEY WORSHIP :

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. (Noble Quran; 6:108)

Not sure if any other religion have the same verse as the ones that I've quoted above, though.

Fine, I could agree with that.

Thank you Seph.

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

Who gave you the right?

That is my own rights. I do not need your Allah's permission or any Muslims' permission to label Allah as false god. IF your Allah have problem with it, tell him to sue me.

Muhammad s.a.w. said it, so OBVIOUSLY the statement MUST BE TAKEN in the context of Islamic teachings.

And who is this Muhammad that I must listen to him without question? You Muslims want to entertain some Arab who lived 1,400 years ago, that is your right. BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO RUB WHAT HE SAID IN MY FACE.  Understood?

So why do you say we are 'stealing', when we believe that Moses a.s. is actually a 'Muslim' (a person submitting to the Will of Allah)?

Again, you can believe all you want (that Moses was a Muslim), however that will not change the fact that Judaism is belief of the Hebrew who have made contract with Yahweh (their god). It have nothing to do with your Allah or your Muhammad. The fact that you (Muslims) took their beliefs and used it as your own basis (for Islam) shows that you have stolen from Judaism.

Seph, did you read the same verse completely, or did you just took half of it? Allow me to quote again :

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful. (Quran 3:144)

You give me a few words and not even the whole verse and you are asking me whether I took half of it?
I'm asking you a question - WHY is your Allah begging Muslims not to leave Islam IF and WHEN Muhammad dies or killed in battle?

Again, you're taking a Quran's verse and use your own interpretation against it.

What do you mean by my own interpretation? The verses clearly stated that Allah stated that Muslims are those who are forceful toward disbelievers and that Muslims are told to pray to they could enrage non-believers. This is what your verses stated clearly. What nonsense are you talking about?

No matter how much a person knows, he cannot bypass the knowledge given by the Quran. Both of us agrees that the Knowledge of The Creator is limitless, and the Quran is a part of these knowledges sent down to mankind.  

First of all, you must prove to people that Al Quran is written by the Creator and not man-made, only then you can lay claim that Al Quran has the knowledge which cannot be surprassed by knowledge of Mankind. So far, I don't see such thing. Only thing I see is Muslims' claims that Al Quran is send by the Creator. Their words without proof.

The Prophet s.a.w were given questions by not only the Muslims, but non-Muslims alike.

Whatever your Muhammad did in the past is IRRELEVANT today. Today, if non-muslims were to question anything about Islam, there will be Muslims barking jihad here and there and in foreign countries, Muslims will bomb their own Muslims in mosque like mad men. So who cares what Muhammad did? Fact - Islam cannot be questioned (today).

Is Siddharta Gautama considered as a Hindu after he have attained Nirvana?

There is no Hindu. There is no Buddhist. There is only human being. Path to God in our belief is path of Mankind back to God. Man to God. Fullstop.

and according to your belief, during modern times, does Hindu's scripture still receives updates from The Creator?  

Our next update is through Kalki Avatar and that update is going on as we speak. Kalki Avatar have already been mentioned 5,000 years ago in Bhavagad Gita and His secret (who and where He is or what form He takes) is known only to a few. Those who have faith will know Him.

We are also taught that the other religion worship One God, just that their interpretation differs.

Then why are Muslims hell-bent in converting others to Islam if they believe others are worshiping the same God? If Hindus behaved in the same way, Muslims could be wiped out of the Planet 1,400 years ago when Islam had born.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 7-11-2013 02:52 PM
by Gunblade712

That is my own rights. I do not need your Allah's permission or any Muslims' permission to label Allah as false god. IF your Allah have problem with it, tell him to sue me.

..and showing disrespect to Muslims by giving such comments is endorsed by the Vedas and Hinduism?

And who is this Muhammad that I must listen to him without question? You Muslims want to entertain some Arab who lived 1,400 years ago, that is your right. BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO RUB WHAT HE SAID IN MY FACE.  Understood?

Who says you cannot question Muhammad s.a.w? We welcome the question, as long as you're willing to hear the answer, NOT TRYING TO RUB YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE HADITH TO OUR FACE. Now, do YOU understand THIS?

Do you or do you NOT agree that one should look at the true meaning of what Muhammad s.a.w. was saying, and not trying to interpret it according to his/her own mind?

Again, you can believe all you want (that Moses was a Muslim), however that will not change the fact that Judaism is belief of the Hebrew who have made contract with Yahweh (their god). It have nothing to do with your Allah or your Muhammad. The fact that you (Muslims) took their beliefs and used it as your own basis (for Islam) shows that you have stolen from Judaism.

Sorry, I beg to differ. Moses a.s. was a Muslim and if he were alive today, he would agree that he a.s is a Muslim. The name 'Judaism' was not penned down by Moses a.s. himself, so what makes you think that we 'stole' the religion from them? We have no trouble admitting that Moses a.s. spoke to Allah on Mount Sinai. Muhammad s.a.w. referred to Moses a.s. as his brother.

Start a new thread about this allegation and we'll get to the bottom of it, insyaAllah. This is better than throwing your accusation and then you turn away blind eyes when Muslims (or a Jew) tried to explain the situation/misconception.

You give me a few words and not even the whole verse and you are asking me whether I took half of it?
I'm asking you a question - WHY is your Allah begging Muslims not to leave Islam IF and WHEN Muhammad dies or killed in battle?

Look what YOU HAVE QUOTED YOURSELF :



aren't YOU the one who quoted the verse FULLY? Don't tell me you just copy-paste it and took only the highlighted words without even bother to read the full verse yourself?

I was merely quoting THE SAME FULL VERSE THAT YOU'VE QUOTED!

What do you mean by my own interpretation? The verses clearly stated that Allah stated that Muslims are those who are forceful toward disbelievers and that Muslims are told to pray to they could enrage non-believers. This is what your verses stated clearly. What nonsense are you talking about?

Nonsense? Pardon me, Seph, but if you go to any Muslim and show the quoted verse, and ask them whether that is the Quran, they will say 'NO'. That is just the translation of the Quran. Being a devoted Hindu, I'm positively sure that one must study a book in it's own language in order to understand it fully. Translation is always the ones used to mislead others.

Now, as stated, I can (and will) inquire about the full explanation about the verse and will give it to you either via this thread, or by sending you a private message. Give me some time; I can't obtain all knowledge overnight.

First of all, you must prove to people that Al Quran is written by the Creator and not man-made, only then you can lay claim that Al Quran has the knowledge which cannot be surprassed by knowledge of Mankind. So far, I don't see such thing. Only thing I see is Muslims' claims that Al Quran is send by the Creator. Their words without proof.

Sure thing. This does makes sense. Shall I do it here, or shall I start a new thread?

btw from my experience here, the problem is that when we gave one proof, most of the non-believers will jump to another question without actually discussing about the proof given. Kindly take note that Muhammad s.a.w doesn't know how to write. For a person who's illiterate to create verses like the Quran is baffling even to those people that lived on his age.

Remember, the Arabs doesn't have anything to be proud of during that time other than their language. They take pride in their language. And the best amongst them are those who are able to create poems, beautiful poems out of the blue. This is why the Quran was sent down in the form of a 'poem'. If you want to see the miracle of the Quran, the most profounding and outstanding is the linguistic usage in it.

Either you want to hear (and we'll try to show to you the miracle in the form of linguistic), or you can just diss us away. Your call.

Whatever your Muhammad did in the past is IRRELEVANT today. Today, if non-muslims were to question anything about Islam, there will be Muslims barking jihad here and there and in foreign countries, Muslims will bomb their own Muslims in mosque like mad men. So who cares what Muhammad did? Fact - Islam cannot be questioned (today).

IRRELEVANT? I'm not sure how you go about with that logic. Muhammad s.a.w is the best of examples (stated in the Quran). If Muslims go about and do things which is against what Muhammad s.a.w taught, then it's the MUSLIM'S FAULT, not ISLAM'S FAULT.

Remember, the Quran doesn't go into the process of 'updates'. Muslims MUST follow the Quran and should took Muhammad s.a.w as an example. If a Muslim did something wrong, it's the Muslim's fault, not Islam (or Muhammad s.a.w)'s fault.

Are we clear on that, or will you still apply your own logic unto the situation?

There is no Hindu. There is no Buddhist. There is only human being. Path to God in our belief is path of Mankind back to God. Man to God. Fullstop.

So who gave the name 'Hindu' and why is there a warning about a 'false god' in 'Hinduism'?

Our next update is through Kalki Avatar and that update is going on as we speak. Kalki Avatar have already been mentioned 5,000 years ago in Bhavagad Gita and His secret (who and where He is or what form He takes) is known only to a few. Those who have faith will know Him.

Thank you for your explanation. I do have other questions about this but I'll reserve it for now.

Then why are Muslims hell-bent in converting others to Islam if they believe others are worshiping the same God? If Hindus behaved in the same way, Muslims could be wiped out of the Planet 1,400 years ago when Islam had born.

Because the path that The Creator accept, as we believe, is only through Islam. However, we do not treat those who reject Islam with unjust. It's just nowadays people misinterpret the teachings and starts to show disrespect towards the other religion. In Islam, we were even forbade to mock an idol (berhala) even though we practise strict monotheism and rejects idol (berhala) fully.

Similarly, if you believe such, you shouldn't go hell-bent on mocking, insulting, and derail Islam/Muslims. I believe whole-heartedly that Hinduism doesn't teach you to mock and/or insults other religions/beliefs. I also believe that your religion prohibited you from insulting the dead, and Muhammad s.a.w have left us 1400 years ago.

Am I right about Hinduism?

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

..and showing disrespect to Muslims by giving such comments is endorsed by the Vedas and Hinduism?

The Vedas didn't say anything about Hindus have to respect any Muslims BUT it did mention that lying to someone is a sin. What you are asking me to do is to lie about Islam and Muhammad just to satisfy your ego. Fact remains - Islam is false and Muhammad is a false prophet.

We welcome the question, as long as you're willing to hear the answer ...

I think you meant as long as we're willing to listen to your lies about the greatness of Muhammad the false prophet and Islam the false religion.

Moses a.s. was a Muslim and if he were alive today, he would agree that he a.s is a Muslim. The name 'Judaism' was not penned down by Moses a.s. himself, so what makes you think that we 'stole' the religion from them?

If Moses were alive today, he could tell the Jews to get up and nuke every Muslim country in Middle East.
And what is the difference whether Moses penned the name Judaism or not. The World calls the belief Hebrew follows as Judaism and Hebrews themselves have accepted it. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO QUESTION IT?

Start a new thread about this allegation and we'll get to the bottom of it, insyaAllah

Bullshit. You cannot even explain ONE STUPID VERSE from Al Quran, and you claim that islam is the religion of God. Nonsense.

Aren't YOU the one who quoted the verse FULLY? Don't tell me you just copy-paste it and took only the highlighted words without even bother to read the full verse yourself?

YES. I'm the one who qouted it and asked the question - WHY is your Allah begging the Muslims not to leave Islam IF (and WHEN) Muhammad is killed in battle or die (of old age)?

Being a devoted Hindu, I'm positively sure that one must study a book in it's own language in order to understand it fully. Translation is always the ones used to mislead others.

Excuse me, are you stupid? Just because you cannot even translate you idiotic Arabic religious text properly, it means everyone else have the same problem???

FYI the first translation of Bhavagad Gita to English was done in 1881 by an English man - AND IT IS STILL BE USED AS A RELIGIOUS TEXT BOOK FOR STUDIES IN ENGLAND. Every year, the Gita is being translated and published Worldwide in various language, and we have YET to find a single fellow who come and complain the translations are misleading or unable to explain. ONLY IN YOUR AL QURAN, SUCH PROBLEM EXIST. It is either you people don't even know what is written in Al Quran OR you refused to accept what is written in there as fact.

Kindly take note that Muhammad s.a.w doesn't know how to write. For a person who's illiterate to create verses like the Quran is baffling even to those people that lived on his age.  

That is because Muslims refused to acknowledge the fact that Muhammad - even so illiterated had spend 15 YEARS travelling around Arab, Egypt and most of the Middle East. He have interacted with other societies and came to know that Arabic society is backwatered when compared to them. That is why he was able to take what he had learn from his travel and apply it to Islamic teaching. He used Judaism as basic and then Christianity. When both races (Jews and Christians) refused to support him, he used Arabic culture and what he had learned to teach Islam. The writing part only began with Abu Bakar when he have become Khalifah after Muhammad died. Furthermore, there is no proof that what is written in Al Quran is the same as what Muhammad preached since many of the people who memorized the verses had died in the wars.

Muhammad s.a.w is the best of examples (stated in the Quran).

IF you are to follow Muhammad's example, you cannot drive cars, motorbike or use any modern equipment because Muhammad did not use it. You cannot go to modern hospital or cinemas or muziums or parks (dangdut is OK I guess). You cannot use Internet, modern banking or anything else. And IF you use all these, then you are going against Muhammad who (as you claim) is the best example.

So who gave the name 'Hindu' and why is there a warning about a 'false god' in 'Hinduism'?  

What is the matter on who gave the name Hindu? Why are you so worked up about names?

There are warning of false gods in Hinduism because there stories of demons and demonic people (like Hirankyasipu) who take themselves as gods (thus false gods) and force people to worship them as the divine. They write false laws to replace what have been given and willing to use violence to satisfy their lust and power-mongering. Yes, it fits your Islamic teachings perfectly.

In Islam, we were even forbade to mock an idol (berhala) even though we practise strict monotheism and rejects idol (berhala) fully.

Do we care what you worship? No. So why are you so busybody about what we worship?

I also believe that your religion prohibited you from insulting the dead, and Muhammad s.a.w have left us 1400 years ago.

Stop using Muhammad as a perfect example up our faces and we will stop insulting your Muhammad. If you kept on barking how Muhammad is so damn perfect, we will keep kicking you in the rear end and tell you that Muhammad was nothing more than a power-hungry Arab who managed to fool the Muslims for 1,400 years.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 8-11-2013 09:49 AM
by Gunblade712

The Vedas didn't say anything about Hindus have to respect any Muslims BUT it did mention that lying to someone is a sin. What you are asking me to do is to lie about Islam and Muhammad just to satisfy your ego. Fact remains - Islam is false and Muhammad is a false prophet.

... and this gives you the right to insult our religion? Just because you 'assume' (based on your 'facts') that Islam is a false religion, gave you the right to insult us?

Then you are no different than those muslims of which you despise.

I think you meant as long as we're willing to listen to your lies about the greatness of Muhammad the false prophet and Islam the false religion.

Which part of it is a lie? We explain using context of the sirah, not just blurb it out of our imagination. It is you and your lots that refuses to acknowledge the method of understanding a Quranic verse / Hadith pertaining to a certain issue. Have you obtained the knowledge from an Islamic scholar and then debunked him, or did you just obtained your knowledge from the Internet, a website that critics Islam, and your own mind?

You don't even want to learn Islam from an authenticated source, yet you claim as such.

If Moses were alive today, he could tell the Jews to get up and nuke every Muslim country in Middle East.
And what is the difference whether Moses penned the name Judaism or not. The World calls the belief Hebrew follows as Judaism and Hebrews themselves have accepted it. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO QUESTION IT?

I am one of the follower of Moses a.s. , so I have THE RIGHT to question this. A name of a religion should be given by it's prophet/leaders. If not, it's like having a baby, nurturing it but didn't gave the baby a name. If Moses were alive today, the first thing he would do is ABOLISHES IDOLS, coz that's what he did after he obtained the Torah.

I guess we all know which place he would nuke in order to destroy idols.

Bullshit. You cannot even explain ONE STUPID VERSE from Al Quran, and you claim that islam is the religion of God. Nonsense.

I've showed you respect towards you and your religion throughout our discussion. It would be best if you show the same to mine. Calling a verse in the Quran as 'STUPID' is rude and disrespect and this act is not suppose to be done by anyone who have intellect and respect. Please show us the virtue of Hinduism by respecting my religion.

I've offered you to start a new thread pertaining to your allegations that Muslims 'stole' the religion from Judaism. If you don't want to start a new thread, don't. If you want, please do. Don't go around and insult us when we've given you ample platform to present your arguments.

YES. I'm the one who qouted it and asked the question - WHY is your Allah begging the Muslims not to leave Islam IF (and WHEN) Muhammad is killed in battle or die (of old age)?

.. and I've quoted the FULL VERSE. The FULL VERSE actually answered your question. The VERY VERSE THAT YOU'VE QUOTED. In case you've missed it, here's the answer :

this is from your own post #45



When did Allah 'beg'? He even 'brags', that even if they all left Islam, it won't harm Him. You've quoted that verse, but you didn't read the full context of it?

Excuse me, are you stupid? Just because you cannot even translate you idiotic Arabic religious text properly, it means everyone else have the same problem???

FYI the first translation of Bhavagad Gita to English was done in 1881 by an English man - AND IT IS STILL BE USED AS A RELIGIOUS TEXT BOOK FOR STUDIES IN ENGLAND. Every year, the Gita is being translated and published Worldwide in various language, and we have YET to find a single fellow who come and complain the translations are misleading or unable to explain. ONLY IN YOUR AL QURAN, SUCH PROBLEM EXIST. It is either you people don't even know what is written in Al Quran OR you refused to accept what is written in there as fact.

Again, show some respect. As far as I've remembered, during this discussion, I've never insulted you nor your religion. Please show me the same respect or it would be best if you stop this discussion.

The Quran should be learned in it's original form as there are 3 formats of Arabic language. The Quran uses the highest level. Do you want me to proceed explanining this, or are you planning on insulting the Quran after I'm done explaining to you why we need to learn it in it's original form?

That is because Muslims refused to acknowledge the fact that Muhammad - even so illiterated had spend 15 YEARS travelling around Arab, Egypt and most of the Middle East. He have interacted with other societies and came to know that Arabic society is backwatered when compared to them. That is why he was able to take what he had learn from his travel and apply it to Islamic teaching. He used Judaism as basic and then Christianity. When both races (Jews and Christians) refused to support him, he used Arabic culture and what he had learned to teach Islam. The writing part only began with Abu Bakar when he have become Khalifah after Muhammad died. Furthermore, there is no proof that what is written in Al Quran is the same as what Muhammad preached since many of the people who memorized the verses had died in the wars.

1. provide to us proof that Muhammad s.a.w. travelled and obtained knowledge.
2. How did Muhammad s.a.w. repeated what is in the Bible and Torah, but at the same time compared between the two, and corrected what was inside it? is 15 years enough for a man to do this feats when the experts of both books were around?

IF you are to follow Muhammad's example, you cannot drive cars, motorbike or use any modern equipment because Muhammad did not use it. You cannot go to modern hospital or cinemas or muziums or parks (dangdut is OK I guess). You cannot use Internet, modern banking or anything else. And IF you use all these, then you are going against Muhammad who (as you claim) is the best example.

This is why we've explained to you about Akidah, Fiqh and Akhlak/Tasawwuf. But you refuse to acknowledge this. Religious-wise, we should follow Muhammad. Everything in this world is mubah (neutral) until a verse/hadith/qias of a scholar says otherwise. With that being said, there is no prohibition of using the Internet or whatever that you've listed.

What is the matter on who gave the name Hindu? Why are you so worked up about names?

There are warning of false gods in Hinduism because there stories of demons and demonic people (like Hirankyasipu) who take themselves as gods (thus false gods) and force people to worship them as the divine. They write false laws to replace what have been given and willing to use violence to satisfy their lust and power-mongering. Yes, it fits your Islamic teachings perfectly.

I'm not worked up. I'm just asking. If God gave you a religion, God would surely gave your religion/path a name.

If violence were the path of Islam, you won't be sitting there mocking us, Seph. Your ancestors won't be allowed to live and breathe, nor would the Prophet s.a.w allowed the musyrikin to be alive. Kindly read the FattahulMakkah. Let me know if you want me to convey the story to you.

Do we care what you worship? No. So why are you so busybody about what we worship?

Yes you do. You've been insulting the Allah, the Quran, Muhammad s.a.w, and Islam for as long as I've remembered you in this forum. Besides, my point is that our religion, though Allah hates idols, prohibits US from INSULTING other idols. Even though worshipping an idol is the greatest sin, we are not allowed to mocked the idols.

THIS is what Islam taught us.

Stop using Muhammad as a perfect example up our faces and we will stop insulting your Muhammad. If you kept on barking how Muhammad is so damn perfect, we will keep kicking you in the rear end and tell you that Muhammad was nothing more than a power-hungry Arab who managed to fool the Muslims for 1,400 years.

If you don't like it, turn around and walk away. Does the Vedas taught you to do what I've quoted above?

Power-hungry Arab. lol. How much wealth did he gather during, and after he obtained Makkah?

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

... and this gives you the right to insult our religion?

Who gave you the rights to talk crap about us and our beliefs in the mosques every friday? And besides, just because you do not accept the facts given and continue to believe in a daydream (Muhammad's) called Allah, it doesn't mean that we have to believe or respect your daydream also.

You don't even want to learn Islam from an authenticated source, yet you claim as such.

And who is this authenticated source?

I am one of the follower of Moses a.s. , so I have THE RIGHT to question this.

No, you are not. You do not follow ANYTHING EXCEPT what Muhammad taught you. ONLY the Jews have the right to call Moses their leader. NO ONE ELSE.

If Moses were alive today, the first thing he would do is ABOLISHES IDOLS, coz that's what he did after he obtained the Torah.  

No, his orders were to guide his people out of Egypt and to the land given by God to them. A land which today coverted by Arab pagans worshipping something called Allah and equalizing Yahweh with it. Moses will have no quarrel with Hindus or Buddhists because we are living in the land which are given to us by God for our people, just as his people were given the Promised Land. It is Muslims who will become the Enemy of God and Mankind. MARK MY WORD.

Please show us the virtue of Hinduism by respecting my religion.  

Muslims deserves no respect from me, nor do I owe them any. So stop begging for respect from me.

When did Allah 'beg'? He even 'brags', that even if they all left Islam, it won't harm Him. You've quoted that verse, but you didn't read the full context of it?

IF Allah won't be harmed by deserters, then why is he asking silly questions like will Muslims leave Islam if Muhammad dies? It is silly for a god to speak like that. Like Malay bullies in school last time - challenging people and then pretending they are not scared. Why your god, Allah like this? He behaves more like a human than a god ... wait, he is a human - he is Muhammad's imagination.

The Quran should be learned in it's original form as there are 3 formats of Arabic language.

You stupid or what? You want me to learn Arabic language? Language of camel herders, warmongers and desert rats? You must think I have nothing better to do.

1. provide to us proof that Muhammad s.a.w. travelled and obtained knowledge.

Hello, you passed Sejarah Islam or not? Everyone knows that he joined Siti Khadijah's merchant group at age of 25, took care of her business and later married her. He continued with merchant business (including travelling with goods) till age of 40 where he started to preach after Gua Hira incident. You telling me he hide his face in his trousers for 15 years kah? BODOH.

2. How did Muhammad s.a.w. repeated what is in the Bible and Torah, but at the same time compared between the two, and corrected what was inside it? is 15 years enough for a man to do this feats when the experts of both books were around?  

He didn't correct anything. He did not know that Jesus which Christians worship as god were false god as well and labelled Jesus as a messanger (without even bothering to ask one simple question - IF jesus is a messanger, WHY wasn't he born like everyone else? Why Jesus needs to be born through a virgin?).

And yes, 15 years should be adequate enough to compile a book. All it needs was a good start, and the best start (of human race) is the Genesis chapter which Jews and Christians have in common. From there, he could slowly create his own religion. He didn't have to write it down. Matter a fact, it is a great wonder why Allah did not ask him to find people to write it down since he started to preach since that could make it easier for him to preach to more people. The fact that Muhammad didn't write it down shows that it wasn't God which he worshipped.

PS : Moses wrote his message down and brought it to people, so why didn't Muhammad? IF it is the same God, then why didn't your Allah told him to write it down? Explain that.

Everything in this world is mubah (neutral) until a verse/hadith/qias of a scholar says otherwise. With that being said, there is no prohibition of using the Internet or whatever that you've listed.  

Alright, I will accept that.

If God gave you a religion, God would surely gave your religion/path a name.  

Go and read the Scripture. God have NEVER GIVEN ANY NAMES TO ANY RELIGIONS WHICH HE GAVE TO MANKIND. Not even ONE.

There is no name for Hinduism when Vedas are given. Hindus called the belief they followed as Santana Dharma or Eternal Dharma (Righteousness) and later, the Persians called it Hinduism to mark the belief followed by people living across the Sindhu river (and Hindus accepted this because Persians did so with respect and not as an insult).

Buddha did not tell His followers that His beliefs is called Buddhism - but it is the Buddhists who came after Him who labelled themselves as Buddhists and the Teacher's teachings as Buddhism.

The God of Israel did not name His religion for Jews as Judaism but it was given by Christians who named the teaching of Moses based on Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus (because Jews rejected Jesus).

So, bottomline - GOD DO NOT GIVE RELIGION ANY NAME. So how sure are you that you are worshipping God?

Your ancestors won't be allowed to live and breathe, nor would the Prophet s.a.w allowed the musyrikin to be alive. Kindly read the FattahulMakkah. Let me know if you want me to convey the story to you.  

You think too highly of yourself, Muslim and too little about us.

Besides, my point is that our religion, though Allah hates idols, prohibits US from INSULTING other idols.

So what if your Allah hate idols? I really don't see why I have entertain this Allah of yours.

How much wealth did he gather during, and after he obtained Makkah?

He gained nothing for God did not redeem him fit to rule. He lost wars, and his male heir (Kassim) died in Karbala Incident which the Syiah continued to celebrate with regret to this day. No male descendant of Muhammad was allowed to live for the sin of calling himself King of the Arabs.

Cuai

Sephiroth posted on 8-11-2013 03:13 PM
by Gunblade712

His heir named Kassim?? KAHKAHKAHKAHKAH
Adoilar ustaz paria nih..would you please..STOP insulting yourself bro..??
You know nuts about Islam..and yet you pretend you know everything!! ppppfffttttttt...

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 8-11-2013 03:13 PM
by Gunblade712

Who gave you the rights to talk crap about us and our beliefs in the mosques every friday? And besides, just because you do not accept the facts given and continue to believe in a daydream (Muhammad's) called Allah, it doesn't mean that we have to believe or respect your daydream also.

1. I've never missed my friday prayer ever since it was compulsory for me (except during my travel days). I have never HEARD of any insults made towards HINDUISM AT ALL. If there is, PLEASE GIVE ME THE PLACE AND THE DATE OF SUCH ACT.

2. The Friday Sermon is given VIA A LOUDSPEAK WHICH PEOPLE OUTSIDE WERE ABLE TO HEAR. If there is an insults given to another religion, SOMEONE MUST HAVE REPORTED IT BACK. No reports thus far.

3. The Friday Sermon is mostly written and distributed by the local Islamic body, which is a government body. It would be quite impossible for the government to insult other religion due to political reasons.

If there is, or there was, PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH PROVE.

And who is this authenticated source?

He who studied the field of knowledge which you wanted to ask. If you want to know about an in-depth about Al-Hadith, you go to a muhaditthun. If you want to know about an in-depth explanation about the Quran, you go to the ahlul-quran. If you truly want, I can bring you to meet up with these people. You can ask anything about Islam and insyaAllah, they will answer it to you along with proof given. Just another alternative for you to truly know about Islam (if you truly wants to know, and not just to mock us here).

No, you are not. You do not follow ANYTHING EXCEPT what Muhammad taught you. ONLY the Jews have the right to call Moses their leader. NO ONE ELSE.

And you, a Hindu, is the judge of this? We see Moses as one of the mightiest messenger of Allah. His names is mentioned tonnes of times in the Quran, all with good praises. We believe that he had a dialogue with Allah Himself, on Mount Sinai. We follow his teachings; that is why the majority of Fiqh in Judaism is similar to Islam.

I believe you don't have the right to be the judge on this, seeing that you're not from the Abrahamaic faith yourself. Plus, you DESPISED Abrahamaic faith and you DO NOT EVEN STUDY the religion under Abrahamaic faith properly. Remember your claim that Lucifer was a fallen angel? No prove from you up until today.

Regardless of what you say, we follow the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad s.a.w.

No, his orders were to guide his people out of Egypt and to the land given by God to them. A land which today coverted by Arab pagans worshipping something called Allah and equalizing Yahweh with it. Moses will have no quarrel with Hindus or Buddhists because we are living in the land which are given to us by God for our people, just as his people were given the Promised Land. It is Muslims who will become the Enemy of God and Mankind. MARK MY WORD.

Please read back the story of Moses from Judaism, Christianity AND Islam. All three religion agrees that Moses came down from the mountain bringing The Law, only to be met with his people corrupted and worshipping an idol. A COW. What did he do? HE WAS SO MAD THAT HE EVEN GOES TO THE EXTEND OF SCOLDING HIS OWN BROTHER, AARON.

Sorry Seph, if Moses were alive today, he would first destroys IDOLS, and THEN solve the issue with the Abrahamaic faith.

Muslims deserves no respect from me, nor do I owe them any. So stop begging for respect from me.

If this is what your Vedas have taught you, then I have nothing more to say about this. This speaks a lot about Hinduism. Thank you.

IF Allah won't be harmed by deserters, then why is he asking silly questions like will Muslims leave Islam if Muhammad dies? It is silly for a god to speak like that. Like Malay bullies in school last time - challenging people and then pretending they are not scared. Why your god, Allah like this? He behaves more like a human than a god ... wait, he is a human - he is Muhammad's imagination.

First, it seems that you failed to realize that the answer was within the same verse which you've quoted. Shows that you only CHOOSE WHICH VERSE TO READ instead of READING THE WHOLE FULL VERSE.

Secondly, it appears that you've never heard of a 'rhetorical question'.

You stupid or what? You want me to learn Arabic language? Language of camel herders, warmongers and desert rats? You must think I have nothing better to do.

Well, since you attacked the Quran, you should also realize that the Quran was revealed in Arabic and it is just common sense for you (or anyone) to know Arabic extensively before they speak about the Quran. Heck, I believe even the orientalist learned Arabic beforehand. And here you are, mocking the Quran but refuses to acknowledge it's original form.

And yes, seeing that you've been here all these years mocking and insulting Islam, I believe you don't have anything better to do.

Hello, you passed Sejarah Islam or not? Everyone knows that he joined Siti Khadijah's merchant group at age of 25, took care of her business and later married her. He continued with merchant business (including travelling with goods) till age of 40 where he started to preach after Gua Hira incident. You telling me he hide his face in his trousers for 15 years kah? BODOH.

BODOH tu adalah orang yang tak faham soalan. Allow me to quote back my question :

1. provide to us proof that Muhammad s.a.w. travelled and obtained knowledge.

What you've said is not a 'proof', it's just your assumption. If he DID obtained the knowledge from his travel, don't tell me that NO ONE RISE UP AND DEBUNK HIS PLAGIARISM? No one point his finger to Muhammad s.a.w and said he stole the knowledge.

No one until 1400 years after his death, from a person who doesn't even follow Abrahamaic faith and doesn't even speak arabic, and doesn't even know sirahtulnabawiyyah.

maybe the question is too hard for you. Let me simplify it, if Muhammad s.a.w. travelled and obtained the knowledges, WHERE did he obtained it and WHO was his teacher?

oh, and please explain to us why no Jew nor Christian actually 'exposed' him of 'plagiarising'.

He didn't correct anything. He did not know that Jesus which Christians worship as god were false god as well and labelled Jesus as a messanger (without even bothering to ask one simple question - IF jesus is a messanger, WHY wasn't he born like everyone else? Why Jesus needs to be born through a virgin?).

And yes, 15 years should be adequate enough to compile a book. All it needs was a good start, and the best start (of human race) is the Genesis chapter which Jews and Christians have in common. From there, he could slowly create his own religion. He didn't have to write it down. Matter a fact, it is a great wonder why Allah did not ask him to find people to write it down since he started to preach since that could make it easier for him to preach to more people. The fact that Muhammad didn't write it down shows that it wasn't God which he worshipped.

PS : Moses wrote his message down and brought it to people, so why didn't Muhammad? IF it is the same God, then why didn't your Allah told him to write it down? Explain that.

I truly don't understand the logic behind this. You're making me laugh out loud, Seph. The question about Jesus is answered in the Quran; it's Allah's will. Further discussion will requires you to start a new thread.

15 years is enough to compile a book which is still studied until today. Tell me again, how long does it take for Vedas to be in it's current form? Your Vedas is STILL going through updates, while the Quran does not. So 15 years is enough for a man to memorize 6000+ verses and convey it WITHOUT MAKING A SINGLE MISTAKE THROUGH THE LINGUISTIC POINT OF VIEW? Seph, you can't even remember what you wrote during your SPM's paper!

Moses did not wrote Torah, kind Seph. Ini pun sudah salah, macam mana nak jawab soalan susulan?

Alright, I will accept that.

Thank you.

Go and read the Scripture. God have NEVER GIVEN ANY NAMES TO ANY RELIGIONS WHICH HE GAVE TO MANKIND. Not even ONE.

There is no name for Hinduism when Vedas are given. Hindus called the belief they followed as Santana Dharma or Eternal Dharma (Righteousness) and later, the Persians called it Hinduism to mark the belief followed by people living across the Sindhu river (and Hindus accepted this because Persians did so with respect and not as an insult).

Buddha did not tell His followers that His beliefs is called Buddhism - but it is the Buddhists who came after Him who labelled themselves as Buddhists and the Teacher's teachings as Buddhism.

The God of Israel did not name His religion for Jews as Judaism but it was given by Christians who named the teaching of Moses based on Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus (because Jews rejected Jesus).

So, bottomline - GOD DO NOT GIVE RELIGION ANY NAME. So how sure are you that you are worshipping God?

Well actually, we're the ones who should be asking you guys. Everything have a name. A label, to identify. To give uniqueness. To give identity. God gave a name even to the first human, but you're telling me that God didn't gave a name to the Path towards Him?

You think too highly of yourself, Muslim and too little about us.

yes, that's because your ancestors were little when they arrived in Malaysia. If Islam teaches about violence, you wouldn't be sitting there and mocking us.

btw, have you read about FattahulMakkah? Are you telling me that Muhammad s.a.w, during that time, didn't go according to Islamic teachings?

So what if your Allah hate idols? I really don't see why I have entertain this Allah of yours.

I didn't tell you this so that you can insult our religion. My point is this : that even though idols are strictly prohibited in Islam, we are told NOT TO INSULT the idols. We are told not to insult YOUR IDOL. We are told not to insult YOUR RELIGION.

And what about you? You said THIS :



THAT is the teaching of VEDAS?

He gained nothing for God did not redeem him fit to rule. He lost wars, and his male heir (Kassim) died in Karbala Incident which the Syiah continued to celebrate with regret to this day. No male descendant of Muhammad was allowed to live for the sin of calling himself King of the Arabs.

He gained nothing. So no wealth were unto him.

1. since you claimed that Muhammad s.a.w. did all those for wealth, when, during his mission as prophets, did he lived as kings?
2. Who the heck is 'KASSIM'?
3. WHEN did Muhammad s.a.w declared himself as the KING OF ARABS?

Hope you can explain to us this with proof, not with your own ideas. We all know now how sick your mind is when it comes to judging Islam.

Sephiroth

1. I've never missed my friday prayer ever since it was compulsory for me (except during my travel days). I have never HEARD of any insults made towards HINDUISM AT ALL. If there is, PLEASE GIVE ME THE PLACE AND THE DATE OF SUCH ACT.  

Don't give me that shit, can or not? You are NOBODY even in your own society. WHO GIVES DAMN YOU HEARD ANYTHING OR NOT?

If you want to know about an in-depth about Al-Hadith, you go to a muhaditthun. If you want to know about an in-depth explanation about the Quran, you go to the ahlul-quran.

Give me a NAME of such person who has the skill of a Muhaditthun and/or Ahlul-quran. NAME.

I believe you don't have the right to be the judge on this, seeing that you're not from the Abrahamaic faith yourself. Plus, you DESPISED Abrahamaic faith and you DO NOT EVEN STUDY the religion under Abrahamaic faith properly.

Maybe you should mirror yourself first before accusing others. You Muslims know crap about Moses other than what Muhammad twisted and daydreamed about in Al Quran. You never took any religious study of Judaism other than follow what Muhammad taught you (and he himself is no authority in that matter as Jews rejected him as a prophet). As for the rest about Moses, it is irrelevant to the topic as the fact remain - the true enemy of Hebrews (and Mankind in general) is ISLAM and MUSLIMS. This do not change.

First, it seems that you failed to realize that the answer was within the same verse which you've quoted. Shows that you only CHOOSE WHICH VERSE TO READ instead of READING THE WHOLE FULL VERSE.

Secondly, it appears that you've never heard of a 'rhetorical question'.

And you are refusing to answer because you don't know or maybe you do not that one who is talking (about being harmed by deserters) is Muhammad.

What you've said is not a 'proof', it's just your assumption. If he DID obtained the knowledge from his travel, don't tell me that NO ONE RISE UP AND DEBUNK HIS PLAGIARISM? No one point his finger to Muhammad s.a.w and said he stole the knowledge.

How do you know no one did? Many had left Islam after Muhammad died and Abu Bakar had to create a law which put deserters to death for leaving Islam. Then Abu Bakar created Al Quran in a book form and convinced everyone what is written there is same as what Muhammad taught and those who questioned him or Al Quran's authentication is labelled heretic and sentenced to death. SO HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW NO ONE QUESTIONED MUHAMMAD THEN?

oh, and please explain to us why no Jew nor Christian actually 'exposed' him of 'plagiarising'.

Because Islam have taught that Jews and Christians are the enemies and have been fighting them for over 1,000 years? What? You going to listen to your enemy's words?

The question about Jesus is answered in the Quran; it's Allah's will. Further discussion will requires you to start a new thread.

No, it is because the Romans used to making up stories how their pagan gods come down and screw human women and give them births which could then perform great feats and miracles. When many of the Romans were abandoning their pagan beliefs to go to Judaism, the Romans created story of Jesus and link it with their own pagan gods, changing Yahweh to Zeus the Father and Jesus the Son. It is not will of your Allah, it is because Romans are better story tellers than your Muhammad.

So 15 years is enough for a man to memorize 6000+ verses and convey it WITHOUT MAKING A SINGLE MISTAKE THROUGH THE LINGUISTIC POINT OF VIEW?

Muhammad didn't create Al Quran in 15 years, he just thought of a way to deceive people in 15 years. He learn things from Jews and Christians and what was bugging them both. Then he just pick things he want to potray to them (and others) so they will accept him as a prophet. Al Quran didn't come into a book form till after Muhammad died.

Well actually, we're the ones who should be asking you guys. Everything have a name. A label, to identify. To give uniqueness. To give identity. God gave a name even to the first human, but you're telling me that God didn't gave a name to the Path towards Him?

Your god is a false god, which is why his followers gave names and labels to everything. My God left such insignificant details to humans to name and label it accordingly. That is why modern humans are called Manusa (taken from the name of King Manu and his wife, Anusia who is Hindu's Adam and Eve).

yes, that's because your ancestors were little when they arrived in Malaysia. If Islam teaches about violence, you wouldn't be sitting there and mocking us.

If Islam taught you anything, your ancestors could have needed us to build a better nation here. hell, your ancestors could have lost to the foreigners and live 500 years as second-rate citizens in their own country if Islam taught you common sense.

The rest is just ranting of a Muslim who's a$$ getting kicked for following a false religion.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 11-11-2013 09:15 AM
Don't give me that shit, can or not?  You are NOBODY even in your own society. WHO GIVES  ...

Don't give me that shit, can or not? You are NOBODY even in your own society. WHO GIVES DAMN YOU HEARD ANYTHING OR NOT?

If that's what you're claiming, then prove to us. WHICH MASJID SPEAKS ILL ABOUT OTHER RELIGION? Don't tell me you're only throwing allegations without proof? If you have no proof, then you're just all talk, which makes your allegations a BS.

Give me a NAME of such person who has the skill of a Muhaditthun and/or Ahlul-quran. NAME.

We have tonnes of Muhaditthun and/or Ahlul-Quran. Nouman Ali Khan is considered as an Ahlul-Quran by some (but he denies and doesn't want to be named as such. He doesn't even want to be called a scholar). In fact, I can bring you to classes in which you can ask questions, even though a provoking questions. Just that whether you wanted to come and hear, or you just wanted to sit on your chair behind a pseudonym and listen to what you choose to listen and throw out allegations. Baling batu sorok tangan. Your call.

Maybe you should mirror yourself first before accusing others. You Muslims know crap about Moses other than what Muhammad twisted and daydreamed about in Al Quran. You never took any religious study of Judaism other than follow what Muhammad taught you (and he himself is no authority in that matter as Jews rejected him as a prophet). As for the rest about Moses, it is irrelevant to the topic as the fact remain - the true enemy of Hebrews (and Mankind in general) is ISLAM and MUSLIMS. This do not change.

'You'? I study comparitive religion. Need I say more? What about you? Have you attended any Islamic class AT ALL? You speak and you blame Islam AS IF you've studied Islam from a scholar of Islam.

It's best if you look into the mirror and check back your words about Islam before you deem us as such. Show some respect for yourself and for your religion.

And you are refusing to answer because you don't know or maybe you do not that one who is talking (about being harmed by deserters) is Muhammad.

I've just answered it, by pointing out TO THE FULL VERSE WHICH YOU HAVE QUOTED YOURSELF. Are you afraid to admit that you've only read HALF OF THE VERSE EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE QUOTED THE FULL VERSE?

How do you know no one did? Many had left Islam after Muhammad died and Abu Bakar had to create a law which put deserters to death for leaving Islam. Then Abu Bakar created Al Quran in a book form and convinced everyone what is written there is same as what Muhammad taught and those who questioned him or Al Quran's authentication is labelled heretic and sentenced to death. SO HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW NO ONE QUESTIONED MUHAMMAD THEN?

Well if YOU KNOW that someone DID, there MUST BE A FREAKING RECORD, seeing that HE MUST HAVE ENEMIES. So, give me ONE NAME THAT SHOWED MUHAMMAD s.a.w PLAGIARIST OTHER RELIGION.

Or give me ONE NAME OF MUHAMMAD s.a.w's TEACHER DURING HIS TRAVELLING DAYS.

Seeing you're the ones who threw this allegation at him, you MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE NAME, right Seph?

Because Islam have taught that Jews and Christians are the enemies and have been fighting them for over 1,000 years? What? You going to listen to your enemy's words?

Another allegations which doesn't make any sense.

1. [ALLEGATION] Islam plagiarist from the Jews and the Christians
2. [ALLEGATION] Islam taught that the Jews and Christians are enemies.

if we put those two together. THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS HAVE ALL THE MORE REASON TO EXPOSE TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA AND/OR MADINAH THAT MUHAMMAD s.a.w PLAGIARIST THEIR BOOKS.

OR

THEY HAVE ALL THE MORE REASON TO EXPOSE IT AFTER HE s.a.w PASSED AWAY.

From what I see, the Christians and the Jews LIVED HARMONIOUSLY DURING HIS s.a.w. DAYS. If you proof that the Jews and the Christians did exposed Muhammad s.a.w during his mission days, PLEASE SHOW IT TO US.

and don't give me another one of your allegations that 'Christians and Jews doesn't have the chance' or anything resembling this. Muhammad s.a.w started weak, most of the Sahabah were oppressed (remember the story of Bilal bin Rabah?). THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS HAVE ALL THE REASONS AND ALL THE MOTIVATION AND ALL THE MEANS AND ALL THE POWER TO EXPOSE MUHAMMAD s.a.w's PLAGIARISING WORK (ACCORDING TO YOUR ALLEGATIONS). WHY DIDN'T THEY?

No, it is because the Romans used to making up stories how their pagan gods come down and screw human women and give them births which could then perform great feats and miracles. When many of the Romans were abandoning their pagan beliefs to go to Judaism, the Romans created story of Jesus and link it with their own pagan gods, changing Yahweh to Zeus the Father and Jesus the Son. It is not will of your Allah, it is because Romans are better story tellers than your Muhammad.

... and the Roman created such stories (of Jesus Christ) because of......???

Muhammad didn't create Al Quran in 15 years, he just thought of a way to deceive people in 15 years. He learn things from Jews and Christians and what was bugging them both. Then he just pick things he want to potray to them (and others) so they will accept him as a prophet. Al Quran didn't come into a book form till after Muhammad died.

Al-Quran (the book) was written during the days of Abu Bakar As-Siddiq and was later taken up by the time of Uthman r.a. The Quran was written by those who memories the verses GIVEN BY THE PROPHET s.a.w DURING HIS TIME. Your allegations doesn't make any sense.

1. He learned? WHO WAS HIS TEACHER?
2. He started off weak. People abused him, both physically and mentally. During his early days, VERY FEW ACCEPTING HIM AS A PROPHET. Yet he goes on, doesn't even flinch, and EVEN SHOW GOOD EXAMPLE TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA.

Again, your allegations doesn't make any sense and you're starting to jump from one allegations to another. Stop jumping and start showing us proof one by one. WHO WAS HIS TEACHER? Remember, THE QURAN WAS RECITED BY MUHAMMAD s.a.w FIRST, BEFORE IT WAS WRITTEN DOWN (there are verses that was written down even during Muhammad s.a.w's time).

Your god is a false god, which is why his followers gave names and labels to everything. My God left such insignificant details to humans to name and label it accordingly. That is why modern humans are called Manusa (taken from the name of King Manu and his wife, Anusia who is Hindu's Adam and Eve).

According to YOUR BELIEF, YOUR 'GOD' gave a name to the FIRST HUMAN (which is KING MANU), but HE DID NOT GAVE NAME TO HIS RELIGION?

If Islam taught you anything, your ancestors could have needed us to build a better nation here. hell, your ancestors could have lost to the foreigners and live 500 years as second-rate citizens in their own country if Islam taught you common sense.

The rest is just ranting of a Muslim who's a$$ getting kicked for following a false religion.

And Hindu contributed so much to the country?

and have you read the story of FattahulMakkah?

It seems that YOU ONLY CHOOSE POINTS FROM WHICH YOU CAN USE TO PROVOKE ISLAM AND IGNORE POINTS WHICH YOU CANNOT USE TO PROVOKE US.

If ISLAM TEACHES US ABOUT VIOLENCE, DOES MUHAMMAD s.a.w. DID NOT FOLLOW ISLAMIC TEACHINGS DURING THE FATTAHULMAKKAH?

oh, and these points were left out, too. Not sure if intentionally or accidentally missed. :

Sephiroth

by Gunblade712

If that's what you're claiming, then prove to us.

I don't have to proof $hit to you. Everyone knows that Muslims talk crap about other religions in mosques every friday (Solat Jumaat). It is known fact.

Nouman Ali Khan is considered as an Ahlul-Quran by some (but he denies and doesn't want to be named as such. He doesn't even want to be called a scholar).  

Considered? What do you mean "considered"? I thought it is standard titles for those who studied Al-Quran and Arabic language. You gave me a single name (Nouman Ali Khan) and you claim that even he refused to be called a Muslim scholar. Then WHO IS A MUSLIM SCHOLAR?

In Hinduism, there were many great scholars and modern day sages like Swamy Vivekanda, Swamy Prabhupada and Mahathma Gandhi who become an example of what Hinduism trying to teach. In your religion, you cannot even name one person of such charisma???

'You'? I study comparitive religion. Need I say more?

I know for a fact that Muslims are natural-born liars, so why should I believe anything you say?

I've just answered it, by pointing out ...

Fine, I will take it that you don't know the answer. I conclude this by stating that Allah is a false god for having fear of humans leaving it. Then again, maybe Muhammad was the one who was speaking here, stating that Islam (and his alter-ego, Allah) could be harmed by deserters if they continued to leave Islam.

Seeing you're the ones who threw this allegation at him, you MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE NAME, right Seph?

No names but you can read for yourself on the website below. You do know how to read, right?

Source : http://ucopak.wordpress.com/mank ... ories-in-the-quran/

if we put those two together. THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS HAVE ALL THE MORE REASON TO EXPOSE TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA AND/OR MADINAH THAT MUHAMMAD s.a.w PLAGIARIST THEIR BOOKS.
OR
THEY HAVE ALL THE MORE REASON TO EXPOSE IT AFTER HE s.a.w PASSED AWAY.

Jews and Christians were supportive of Muhammad when he was in Mecca, therefore, when he qouted from their beliefs, they simply thought that he was doing what all prophets before him was doing, reteaching the people of their beliefs. It is in Madinah did Muhammad started to change the text to his will, and omitted out many things, including the status of Jesus as Son of God and changing the direction of prayers from Jerusalem (which the Jews had been doing for over 500 years) toward Kaabah, which they never had heard or done before. At that time, it was too late. Muhammad already have his war-mongering horde and started to attack and capture areas around Medinah. Jews and Christians fought back with the only way they could - by supporting the Quraisy but the Quraisy are too stupid to do an all-out attack to wipe Muhammad out and lost in return.

.. and the Roman created such stories (of Jesus Christ) because of......???

Read my other thread which I have opened (called Jesus is a fabricated story created by Roman empire).

Your allegations doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make sense because you do not want to listen. Muhammad started off Islam with his own creation - Allah and managed to fool the people by borrowing other people's religion. Later, Abu Bakar took up that teaching because it allow Abu Bakar and his three other friends power over the people. And it have been going on for the past 1,400 years. And here, you are making stupid questions because you do not want to acknowledge the fact that YOU HAVE BEEN DUPPED BY AN ARAB NAMED MUHAMMAD.

According to YOUR BELIEF, YOUR 'GOD' gave a name to the FIRST HUMAN (which is KING MANU), but HE DID NOT GAVE NAME TO HIS RELIGION?

WRONG. Go and read what I have stated properly.

and have you read the story of FattahulMakkah?

No, I have not.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 12-11-2013 08:50 AM
by Gunblade712

I don't have to proof $hit to you. Everyone knows that Muslims talk crap about other religions in mosques every friday (Solat Jumaat). It is known fact.

If it's a 'KNOWN FACT', then you would have no problem in providing ONE SIMPLE PROOF about this. Yet, you have NONE.

This is the same as other religion says you Hindu worship cows. 'KNOWN FACT'. No need to prove. Bila kena kat batang hidung kau, tahu pula kau meroyan membebel menghina orang. Bila kau buat kat orang, kau cakap 'I don't have to proof $hit to you.' Double-standard and bias. Is this the teachings in Vedas?

Considered? What do you mean "considered"? I thought it is standard titles for those who studied Al-Quran and Arabic language. You gave me a single name (Nouman Ali Khan) and you claim that even he refused to be called a Muslim scholar. Then WHO IS A MUSLIM SCHOLAR?

In Hinduism, there were many great scholars and modern day sages like Swamy Vivekanda, Swamy Prabhupada and Mahathma Gandhi who become an example of what Hinduism trying to teach. In your religion, you cannot even name one person of such charisma???

'Considered' because they are humble and do not want to be reverred like how the Hindus revered their gurus. It's just plain simple. Have you studied Islam under the tutelage of Islamic teachers/scholars? Or are you just using your logic based on whatever crap you've been reading on the Internet all these while?

I know for a fact that Muslims are natural-born liars, so why should I believe anything you say?

That's just like saying a 'fact' that Hindus are natural-born a forked-tongue double-standard liar. 'Semua orang tahu, orang Hindu suka belit.'

Of course, it doesn't apply to 'Hindu', but it's only applied to 'Muslims'. How double-standard are you, Seph? Let's meet up so that I can show you what I've obtained and learned throughout my life.

Let me guess, you're going to either ignore this, or you're going to throw some crappy 'I-am-better-than-you' words/remarks such as 'Muslim tak layak jumpa aku' or something like that.

Fine, I will take it that you don't know the answer. I conclude this by stating that Allah is a false god for having fear of humans leaving it. Then again, maybe Muhammad was the one who was speaking here, stating that Islam (and his alter-ego, Allah) could be harmed by deserters if they continued to leave Islam.

lol. You're really making me laugh, Seph. The answer was given not by me, but by YOU. YOU are the ones who quoted the full verse. Allow me to show it to you (and the rest of the reader) :

This is the allegations :

post #45


The orange box is THE QURANIC VERSE WHICH YOU HAVE QUOTED and the RED BOX IS YOUR ALLEGATIONS TOWARDS THE VERSE.

This is what I've explained/answered :

post #46 :


The orange box is what I've quoted and replied. IT IS THE SAME VERSE AS WHAT YOU'VE QUOTED ON POST #45. The difference? YOU ONLY TOOK HALF OF THE VERSE WITHOUT READING IT UNTIL THE END.

Your 'conclusion' doesn't harm Allah one bit; and it doesn't harm me at all. In fact, this only harms YOU and YOUR REPUTATION (IF you have one at all).

Fact : Sephiroth have a sick twisted mind and only quoted HALF of a Quranic verse to suits his/her interpretation. Seph's ALLEGATIONS UNTO THE QURAN WAS ANSWERED BY THE SAME VERSE, AND SEPH HIMSELF/HERSELF QUOTED IT.

Still in denial?

No names but you can read for yourself on the website below. You do know how to read, right?

Source : http://ucopak.wordpress.com/mank ... ories-in-the-quran/

Yes, I do know how to read. I've been discussing/debating with you via this forum, right?

I'm to discuss/debate with the owner of the blog? Oh gosh, this blog IS THE MOST AUTHENTICATED SOURCE OF LEARNING FOR ISLAM, SEPH! I wonder, HOW COME THE WRITER DID NOT MAKE THIS HUGE AND BRING ISLAM TO IT'S KNEE??

btw the blog did not answer anything, Seph. Who was Muhammad s.a.w's teacher? And why didn't this 'teacher' or his 'student' did not expose 'Muhammad's lies'?

You can't even give me 'NAMES', but you just give me some RANDOM BLOG FROM THE NET (which is not really authenticated at all) AND YOU'RE USING THIS AS TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM?

gosh, how low can you go?

Names of Muhammad s.a.w.'s teacher, or shut your pie hole and go learn more about Islam. From the right source, that is.

Jews and Christians were supportive of Muhammad when he was in Mecca, therefore, when he qouted from their beliefs, they simply thought that he was doing what all prophets before him was doing, reteaching the people of their beliefs. It is in Madinah did Muhammad started to change the text to his will, and omitted out many things, including the status of Jesus as Son of God and changing the direction of prayers from Jerusalem (which the Jews had been doing for over 500 years) toward Kaabah, which they never had heard or done before. At that time, it was too late. Muhammad already have his war-mongering horde and started to attack and capture areas around Medinah. Jews and Christians fought back with the only way they could - by supporting the Quraisy but the Quraisy are too stupid to do an all-out attack to wipe Muhammad out and lost in return.

did you get this out from some scholar, or did you just made this up from your own mind? Surah Maryam was sent down DURING HIS TIME IN MAKKAH, meaning THE STATUS OF JESUS (according to Islam) WAS GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA FIRST, NOT MADINAH. This alone have exposed your lies unto Islam. IF THE VERSES ABOUT JESUS WAS FIRST SENT DOWN ON MADINAH, PLEASE FORWARD ME THE PROOF.

And please DO NOT IGNORE AND RUN AWAY FROM THIS AS YOU HAVE RUN AWAY AND IGNORE FROM MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS TO YOUR OWN 'STATEMENT' and 'LOGIC'.

Read my other thread which I have opened (called Jesus is a fabricated story created by Roman empire).

Ah, OK. will do. Let's just continue there.

It doesn't make sense because you do not want to listen. Muhammad started off Islam with his own creation - Allah and managed to fool the people by borrowing other people's religion. Later, Abu Bakar took up that teaching because it allow Abu Bakar and his three other friends power over the people. And it have been going on for the past 1,400 years. And here, you are making stupid questions because you do not want to acknowledge the fact that YOU HAVE BEEN DUPPED BY AN ARAB NAMED MUHAMMAD.

I wanted to listen but you're not making any sense. First, you people claim that Muhammad created the Quran. Now, you're saying AS IF Abu Bakar As-Siddiq and the Sahabah created the Quran, while WE ALL KNOW that the Quran was recited by Muhammad s.a.w. FIRST.

Now, given the fact that you are telling us Muhammad s.a.w travelled during his younger days (before he s.a.w become a prophet) AND you claimed that he go and study OTHER RELIGION FOR 15 YEARS BEFORE HE CAME BACK, well OBVIOUSLY HE CAME BACK WITH THE QURAN. He did his dakwah WITH THE QURAN.

So the QURAN IS THE KNOWLEDGE THAT WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT.

BUT YOU'RE CLAIMING AS IS THE SAHABAH CREATED THE QURAN.

Make up your mind; from WHOM does the Quran came from? Muhammad s.a.w, OR THE SAHABAH?

WRONG. Go and read what I have stated properly.

I did. Here's what you say :

Your god is a false god, which is why his followers gave names and labels to everything. My God left such insignificant details to humans to name and label it accordingly. That is why modern humans are called Manusa (taken from the name of King Manu and his wife, Anusia who is Hindu's Adam and Eve).

No, I have not.

Well go and read it, coz it shows THE BEST EXAMPLE OF HOW ISLAM DOES NOT TEACHES VIOLENCE.

Of course, there are people who doesn't want to read the story because THEY JUST WANTED TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED TO BELIEVE, and then THEY SPREAD WHAT THEY WANTED TO BELIEVE AS IF IT'S THE TRUTH WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO READ THE FULL STORY/EXPLANATION.

Such is a 'fitnah', and I believe that even Hinduism DESPISED FITNAH. Fitnah merupakan satu perkara yang SANGAT JIJIK, LAGI RENDAH DARI SYAITAN DAN IBLIS DAN SEGALA BINATANG DI ATAS MUKA BUMI!

oh, did you MISSED OUT ON THESE QUESTIONS? :



Those questions are directed to your allegations unto Islam. ARE YOU IGNORING THE QUESTIONS?

Sephiroth

by gunblade712

This is the same as other religion says you Hindu worship cows. 'KNOWN FACT'. No need to prove.  

Yeah, Hinduism worship (or more precisely revered) cows. This is Fact and I never asked anyone proof for that. So why are you asking for proof for something that happens in your mosques during Solat Jemaah every friday???

'Considered' because they are humble and do not want to be reverred like how the Hindus revered their gurus.

OR they have no confidence that what they have learn is fact, and know for fact that if they teach others (who are not Muslims) and get bombarbed by questions, they will not be able to answer and lose faith.

Let's meet up so that I can show you what I've obtained and learned throughout my life.

Not going to happen. So stop dreaming that you will meet me. I have better advantage being anonymous.

The orange box is THE QURANIC VERSE WHICH YOU HAVE QUOTED and the RED BOX IS YOUR ALLEGATIONS TOWARDS THE VERSE.

YES, that was my allegations toward the verse. BECAUSE YOU REFUSED TO ANSWER WHY YOUR ALLAH BEGGING MUSLIMS NOT TO LEAVE.

Names of Muhammad s.a.w.'s teacher, or shut your pie hole and go learn more about Islam. From the right source, that is.

I have already given the information you require. IF you refuse to accept it and continue your assumption that Muhammad is a prophet (and not a con-artist), then it is up to you. I will continue my battle to destroy Islam and debunk Muhammad as anything but a con-artist who managed to con the Arabs using his four friends.

Surah Maryam was sent down DURING HIS TIME IN MAKKAH, meaning THE STATUS OF JESUS (according to Islam) WAS GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF MECCA FIRST, NOT MADINAH.

Source : http://ilmunnoor.weebly.com/surah-maryam-tafseer-notes.html

The story is as follows:

“The Makkans sent two of their top people, Amr bin Al-as and Abdullah bin Abi Rabia, who took expensive gifts with them. They wanted to dazzle and bribe the Negus so that he would release these Muslims. The two Makkan envoys travelled to Abyssinia and spoke to the Negus. They explained that these Muslims had left the religion of their forefathers and they asked Negus to return them to the Makkans.

The king summoned the Muslims to the court and asked them to explain the teachings of their religion The Muslims were not scared of anything, they had the truth and they would stand by the truth. Ja‘far bin Abi Talib stood up and explained to the Negus about the situation of the Arabs before the divine guidance came from Allah. He said that in the past, they had been acting out of ignorance by worshipping Idols and carrying out many bad actions. They had neglected their responsibilities to their fellow man, neighbour and orphans. They had complete forsaken justice, compassion and charity. They had forgotten all the good characteristics of a human being such as truth, honesty and piety. They had neglected all forms of justice and the strongest oppressed and ruled over the weak.

Jafar then explained to the Negus about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his pure message which invited mankind to worship only Allah and to leave all forms of idol worship. The Prophet (PBUH) had encouraged them to always speak the truth; to be faithful to their trusts and promises; to be merciful and just in their dealings with others and to respect the rights of their fellow human beings. The Prophet (pbuh) had also forbade them to speak evil of women and ordered them to look after the welfare of the orphans. He further explained that the prophet (pbuh) had ordered them to keep away from all evil acts and instead offer prayers, give charity, and to observe fasting.

Jafar told the Negus they had accepted this noble person as the Prophet of Allah and had followed his teachings. It was for this reason the Makkans had attacked and persecuted them and it was for this reason the Muslims had left Makkah. The Negus was satisfied with their answers.

The two envoys decided on a new plan. They went to the Negus saying that Muslims spoke ill of Jesus. The Negus called the Muslims and questioned them regarding what their religion said about Jesus. Jafar recited some verses of the Qu’ran from Surah Maryam, which teaches us about the miraculous birth of Jesus and the status of Jesus in Islam. The Negus was again impressed and was moved to tears that rolled down his cheeks. He knew in his heart that this was indeed the truth and was moved by the beautiful verses of the Qu’ran

The Negus exclaimed: “It seems as if these words and those which were revealed to Jesus are the rays of light which have radiated from the same source.” He then turned to the two envoys from Makkah and told them to leave; the Muslims could stay in Abyssinia as long as they wished. The gifts were returned to the two envoys and they were told to return to Makkah.”  [Taken from: http://www.musalla.org/articles/Hijra_to_Abyssinia_(Ethiopia)34.html]

-          This incident took place in the 6th year of Prophethood. Scholars observing this incident state that Surah Maryam was revealed during the 4thyear of Prophethood because for them to have recited passages from Surah Maryam in front of the Ruler showcases that it must have been revealed prior to their migration.

Bottomline - Muhammad gave the Surah of Maryam not to Christians who support them but to the Negus who held two Muslims (as hostage) and was spoken to by Meccans that Muslims have left the religion of their forefathers and talk ill of Jesus (who the Negus revered). So Muhammad spoke of the Surah to fool the Negus in thinking that Islam hold Jesus in high-regards (as a prophet).

First, you people claim that Muhammad created the Quran. Now, you're saying AS IF Abu Bakar As-Siddiq and the Sahabah created the Quran, while WE ALL KNOW that the Quran was recited by Muhammad s.a.w. FIRST.

Recited is same as creating Al Quran kah, bodoh. I said Muhammad created ISLAM, not Al Quran as it was not completed till Muhammad died. Only after Muhammad died, Abu Bakar went and create Al Quran as you have it today. Sudah tulis terang2, masih tak erti bahasa. BODOH.

That is why modern humans are called Manusa (taken from the name of King Manu and his wife, Anusia who is Hindu's Adam and Eve).

Taken from AND Given to is same same kah? You fail English kah? Taken from bermaksud "Diambil dari" dan Given to bermaksud "Diberikan dari". It is two different meaning altogether.

Such is a 'fitnah', and I believe that even Hinduism DESPISED FITNAH.

Stating facts that Muhammad is a false prophet and Islam is a false religion is FITNAH, kah? FYI you want to claim Islam is true religion, that is your assumption. BUT IF you want others to believe, you must provide evidence. IF we choose not to believe that lie, it is not fitnah.

mashimaru83

Sephiroth posted on 13-11-2013 09:34 AM
by gunblade712

Where is the evidence to support your claim in post #2? I mean evidence from Hindu scripture.

gunblade712

Sephiroth posted on 13-11-2013 09:34 AM
by gunblade712

Yeah, Hinduism worship (or more precisely revered) cows. This is Fact and I never asked anyone proof for that. So why are you asking for proof for something that happens in your mosques during Solat Jemaah every friday???

Of course I will ask for proof. You're talking about MY RELIGION which IS NOT TRUE. I have never missed a single Friday Prayer (except during my travelling days in which I do attend the masjid whenever I can), and I've never heard the khatib speaks ill of other religion. Seeing YOU are telling me that THERE ARE KHATIB WHO SPEAKS ILL OF OTHER RELIGION, you MUST HAVE PROOF TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM.

Takkan main tuduh je tanpa bukti, Seph? Bukan ke ini FITNAH? Vedas membenarkan kamu memfitnah @ berkata tanpa bukti ke?

OR they have no confidence that what they have learn is fact, and know for fact that if they teach others (who are not Muslims) and get bombarbed by questions, they will not be able to answer and lose faith.

they answered it on Youtube, on live TV, and on open TV forum. They have their own websites, they accepts emails (though they don't have enough energy to answer all), and they open classes which you can attend. I can say that almost 100% of questions were answered successfully by them. The questionee either go home satisfied (if they wanted to truly know about Islam) or go home in shame (if they just wanted to provoke/troll Islam).

And here you are, a nobody, who doesn't know anything about Islam, is telling me that they have no confidence?

Not going to happen. So stop dreaming that you will meet me. I have better advantage being anonymous.

sounds like you don't have confidence in yourself and your religion. That's why you're banking on the 'advantage of being anonymous'. Too bad. It's ok, we don't judge you.

YES, that was my allegations toward the verse. BECAUSE YOU REFUSED TO ANSWER WHY YOUR ALLAH BEGGING MUSLIMS NOT TO LEAVE.

are you trying to twist out the facts here, Seph? Your question was answered by your own quoted Quranic verse. I didn't refuse to answer it, it's already there amongst your own post and your own quoted words.

In other words, you just proved to us that you only read half (literally!) of a Quranic verse to suits your needs. Your answer is already given. Please don't make a fool out of yourself anymore. In case you've missed it, here is the answer :

This is your allegations on post #46 :



The orange box is THE QURANIC VERSE WHICH YOU HAVE QUOTED and the RED BOX IS YOUR ALLEGATIONS TOWARDS THE VERSE.

This is what I've explained/answered :

post #46 :



The orange box is what I've quoted and replied. IT IS THE SAME VERSE AS WHAT YOU'VE QUOTED ON POST #45. The difference? YOU ONLY TOOK HALF OF THE VERSE WITHOUT READING IT UNTIL THE END.

So please stop making a fun out of yourself by repeating what was already answered clearly, Seph.

I have already given the information you require. IF you refuse to accept it and continue your assumption that Muhammad is a prophet (and not a con-artist), then it is up to you. I will continue my battle to destroy Islam and debunk Muhammad as anything but a con-artist who managed to con the Arabs using his four friends.

I require NAMES OF THE PROPHET'S TEACHER (if there's any). You have not come up with ONE name. All you come up with is ASSUMPTION that he s.a.w. went under a tutelage. Go on with your battle, if you want. Since 2005, I have yet to see you debunk ONE Quranic verse and/or a hadith.

The more you speak ill of Islam, the more people will QUESTION whether what you're saying is true or not. I pray that may Allah give these people path towards learning Islam from the right source and give the the hidayah. I pray the same for you, too.

Source : http://ilmunnoor.weebly.com/surah-maryam-tafseer-notes.html

Good. Thank you for quoting this. Abdul Nasir Jangda is also one of the prominent Quranic teacher/scholar. However, remember what you've said about this point? :

post #56 :

It is in Madinah did Muhammad started to change the text to his will, and omitted out many things, including the status of Jesus as Son of God and changing the direction of prayers from Jerusalem (which the Jews had been doing for over 500 years) toward Kaabah, which they never had heard or done before. - Sephiroth

However, the link says that Surah Maryam was revealed in the Makkah (or in the vicinity of Makkah). The link NEVER SAYS that this was sent down in Madinah.

Please show us proof that the status of Jesus Christ was 'changed' by prophet Muhammad s.a.w. in Madinah.

Bottomline - Muhammad gave the Surah of Maryam not to Christians who support them but to the Negus who held two Muslims (as hostage) and was spoken to by Meccans that Muslims have left the religion of their forefathers and talk ill of Jesus (who the Negus revered). So Muhammad spoke of the Surah to fool the Negus in thinking that Islam hold Jesus in high-regards (as a prophet). [quote]

are you changing your statement? First, you say that the status of Jesus was 'changed' in Madinah. Now, you're saying that you agree with Dr Abdul Nasir Jangda's statement and it was 'changed' during the time in Makkah? Negus was a Christian King. By stating that Jesus is no more than a messenger, this 'lowers' the status of Jesus (in the eyes of the Christians). But then again, this is another discussion. I don't want you to jump from one topic to another and ignore questions that demands your proof.

Show to us proof that the status of Jesus was 'changed' in Madinah, as per your claim on your post #56

[quote]Recited is same as creating Al Quran kah, bodoh. I said Muhammad created ISLAM, not Al Quran as it was not completed till Muhammad died. Only after Muhammad died, Abu Bakar went and create Al Quran as you have it today. Sudah tulis terang2, masih tak erti bahasa. BODOH.

You claimed that Muhammad went away to learn for 15 years and came back with knowledges and 'create Islam'. Do YOU KNOW that Islam is based around the Quran? MEANING THAT THE KNOWLEDGE OF ISLAM IS FROM THE QURAN. To say 'Muhammad create Islam' is the same as saying 'Muhammad create Quran', because even the name 'ISLAM' is GIVEN BY THE QURAN, NOT BY MUHAMMAD s.a.w.

By 'QURAN', I DO NOT MEAN THE KITAB. I'm referring the the Quran recited by Muhammad s.a.w first; Islam is based around the Quran.

Now, do you understand this simple point, or do you need for me to explain it again using a much more simpler words?

Taken from AND Given to is same same kah? You fail English kah? Taken from bermaksud "Diambil dari" dan Given to bermaksud "Diberikan dari". It is two different meaning altogether.

Nope. My job/business requires me to have ample English knowledge. That's how you think? Tell me, WHO GAVE 'KING MANU' HIS NAME?

he name it himself after he was created eh?

Stating facts that Muhammad is a false prophet and Islam is a false religion is FITNAH, kah? FYI you want to claim Islam is true religion, that is your assumption. BUT IF you want others to believe, you must provide evidence. IF we choose not to believe that lie, it is not fitnah.

Well, if you give ALLEGATIONS, you MUST GIVE PROOF. if not, THAT IS A FITNAH. This holds true for ANY RELIGION, not just Islam. Meaning, if a person wants to throw allegations unto Hindu, they must give proof. If not, that is a FITNAH.

Now, taking that into consideration, HAVE YOU READ THE STORY OF FATTAHULMAKKAH? You claim that Islam is a religion of violence but the story of FattahulMakkah proves otherwise. Either the prophet s.a.w. 'doesn't follow Islam', or you're throwing fitnah.

another fitnah is when you claim that the status of Jesus was 'changed' during the prophet s.a.w was in Madinah. YOU HAVE YET TO GIVE US PROOF OF THIS. This, is a FITNAH, and I know that even the Vedas DESPISED THOSE WHO THROW FITNAH. Even your religion despised what you're doing!

And these questions remains unanswered BY YOU :



Those questions above are also showing that you're throwing a fitnah unto Islam.