Taurat and Injil during Muhammad's time

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 10:18 PM
I though the verse is very clear. It is the Injeel which has been revealed (to Prophet Eesa(as)).  ...

Then tell me, how are the Christians supposed to do that if they don't have this Injil? Is Allah telling them to judge by something which they don't have?

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 10:23 PM
Would it not be the original Tawrat instead of the actual Tawrat?

The 'actual Tawrat' is what  ...

Again I ask you, if between these two: the actual revelation given to moses, or a corrupt version, which of these have the precedence of being referred to as "THE Tawrat"?

kid

In my opinion, "what with them" means the existing Tawrat and Injil during the Muhammad's time (of course).

Even in corrupted Tawrat and Injil, words of God still exist inside despite addition and modifications. The sincere hearts knows which these God's word as if they can identify their own kids. This is the special skill given by God to those sincere hearts since the ancient time, in Islam we call it "hidayah" or "enlightment".

And God fully knows how to judge them even by corrupted books, this is EASY for God to do (yeah difficult for man, but not difficult for Him). God's court is billion times more advanced than human court, there is NOT an atomic unfairness in God's court, so no worries to all human in whatever period they live in and whatever scriptures they hold, even for the barbaric people who lived in the jungle who never saw the scriptures, FAIR judgement is surely for them.

That is above when talking about how God's judge using corrupted books, it is not difficult for God to do.

Back to topic, for those Jews and Christians who was born during Muhammad's time and until today which their scriptures corrupted, some of them can IDENTIFY the true God's words which still EXIST in the Tawrat and Bible (Injil), this is not easy but God guides them to see.

The proof is, even until today there are Jews who strive to go back to original Tawrat and reject additional Misnad, and Christian who do not believe Jesus in son of God (Unitarian) and keep searching the true word of God inside Bible/Injil. They can IDENTIFY the true God's words despite the heavy wrong dogma and interpretation.

And not to forget, for Muslim God guarantee that Qur'an is special, it will be unchangeable, it is complete and enough for human even for the most advanced society and even million years to come. So we knew from histroy human tendency always to add and modify God's words, they created new books along Qur'an and use them instead Qur'an, God never guarantee that human will not create another books, but guarantee the integrity of Qur'an itself. For those sincere Mulsim they can IDENTIFY exactly these, just like those sincere Jews and Christians!

Life is like a rainbow with million degree colors, and Allah KNOWS exactly in which color each of us belong, God knows in what rank each of us exactly with atomic precision.

So that is "what with them" is indeed the corrupted books, but do not make mistake, it is easy for Allah to judge using them.

albatross

kid posted on 22-11-2014 12:14 PM
In my opinion, "what with them" means the existing Tawrat and Injil during the Muhammad's time (of c ...

the verses are not talking about Allah judging using the corrupt scriptures. The verses are telling Christians themselves to judge by the corrupt scriptures. How can Allah tell people to judge by corrupt scriptures?

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 11:58 AM
Then tell me, how are the Christians supposed to do that if they don't have this Injil? Is Allah telling them to judge by something which they don't have?

Then your religious journey has just started. The said Quranic verse states that you would be judged by what Allah revealed meaning in the day of judgement you would be judged by what has been revealed to Prophet Eesa(as).

The Quran has stated that the bible has been corrupted. I , being a muslim believe it. In addition , this point has been proven by critical bible scholarship.

The question of what Christians are supposed should be towards yourself. The point here is that are you willing to be open minded and scrutinize your bible with a critical mind? How do you move on from there?

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 12:03 PM
Again I ask you, if between these two: the actual revelation given to moses, or a corrupt version, which of these have the precedence of being referred to as "THE Tawrat"?

What you actually have now and at the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) is the corrupt Torah in which we still term being 'The Torah'.

kid

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 12:27 PM
the verses are not talking about Allah judging using the corrupt scriptures. The verses are tellin ...

Exactly what I meant, all judgement will be returned to God.

What people judged will be judged by God.

Allah asked Jews and Christian to judge using their books, because in that book there still exist God's words despite corruption.

True follower of God will not be worry eventhough they have corrupt books.

This is not something that difficult for God to know which judged using true words and which judged using man made word corruption.

Jews and Christian refuse to accept Quran, so they will be judged by whatever they have.

Jungle people will judged by whatever they have, perhaps no books there, then God knows exactly what they are doing.

Thats the point.

kid

I know many are trying to blame God due to that verse, because He asked Jews and Christian to judge using their corrupted books.

But what happened was, God asked them to follow a clear book which is Quran, and they refused. So God let them continue using corrupted books and will judged them later on whatever they have because they INSIST on doing so.

But what people said now, God made mistake as if God wants that. They are so clever in twisting and turning.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 12:50 PM
Then your religious journey has just started. The said Quranic verse states that you would be judg ...

Friend, the verse does not say that. The verse says that the Christians should judge by the Injil. It's not talking about Allah judging the Christians, it tells the Christians to judge by the Injil. So Allah is telling them to judge by a corrupt book?

albatross

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 12:53 PM
What you actually have now and at the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) is the corrupt Torah in which  ...

When something is corrupted, it is no longer the same thing! So if today's Taurat is corrupted, then it wouldn't be "THE Tawrat". Allah wouldn't refer to a corrupt book, with the name that He himself has given, to the actual book that He revealed. Does it make sense to you that Allah would refer to a corrupt book by he very name that He has Himself given to a Book that He himself revealed?

Second of all, in that verse Allah was talking to Moses. What do you think Moses would've thought if he heard of something being referred to as "THE Tawrat"? The book that he is familiar with, or a book that has been corrupted after his death?

albatross

kid posted on 22-11-2014 02:37 PM
I know many are trying to blame God due to that verse, because He asked Jews and Christian to judge  ...

So just because people refuse to go by the Quran, God is letting people to reject it? What kind of God is that, that he allows people to judge by corrupt books for any reason whatsoever? So Allah is okay with Christians saying Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, and Jews saying Ishmael is a wild ass of a man whose hand shall be against everybody?

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 03:52 PM
When something is corrupted, it is no longer the same thing! So if today's Taurat is corrupted, then it wouldn't be "THE Tawrat". Allah wouldn't refer to a corrupt book, with the name that He himself has given, to the actual book that He revealed. Does it make sense to you that Allah would refer to a corrupt book by he very name that He has Himself given to a Book that He himself revealed?

Second of all, in that verse Allah was talking to Moses. What do you think Moses would've thought if he heard of something being referred to as "THE Tawrat"? The book that he is familiar with, or a book that has been corrupted after his death?

I think you are already confused on what is definate article , ie. 'the'.

To you it means the actual Tawrat and to you again , actual means original. You are wrong in both counts. This has been explained before but no response from you and you still adopt the same approach. You need to provide evidence that definate article and the word actual means that it is the original.

To me it is very simple , it is referred being 'The Torah' because there is no other version of it and everyone knows what is being referred.

You are just trying to manipulate the language in your argument.

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 03:52 PM
Friend, the verse does not say that. The verse says that the Christians should judge by the Injil. It's not talking about Allah judging the Christians, it tells the Christians to judge by the Injil. So Allah is telling them to judge by a corrupt book?

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Quran5:47)

(Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat,

Again , you misunderstood what has been written.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 04:32 PM

To me it is very simple , it is referred being 'The Torah' because there is no other version of it and everyone knows what is being referred.

Once again, Allah was talking to Moses in that verse. According to your logic, since the only Tawrat available at Moses's time is the actual, original Tawrat, then Allah in this case is talking about the actual Tawrat given to Moses! This is according to your logic. There is no other version of the Tawrat during Moses's time. Everybody during Moses's time knows that what is being referred to is the actual Tawrat, since that's the only Tawrat that they have!

Also, please lay off the ad hominem attacks.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 04:35 PM
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Quran5:47)

Again , you misunderstood what has been written.

Is that really what the verse said? It clearly states: "And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein." Nowhere does it state in that verse about them judging by the Injil is so that Allah would judge them. that is only an interpolation by Ibn Kathir.

Second of all, if that is really true, then the question I asked still stand. So just because people refuse to go by the Quran, God is letting people to reject it? What kind of God is that, that he allows people to judge by corrupt books for any reason whatsoever given by them? So Allah is okay with Christians saying Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, and Jews saying Ishmael is a wild ass of a man whose hand shall be against everybody?

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 05:03 PM
Once again, Allah was talking to Moses in that verse. According to your logic, since the only Tawrat available at Moses's time is the actual, original Tawrat, then Allah in this case is talking about the actual Tawrat given to Moses! This is according to your logic. There is no other version of the Tawrat during Moses's time. Everybody during Moses's time knows that what is being referred to is the actual Tawrat, since that's the only Tawrat that they have!

Also, please lay off the ad hominem attacks.

Allah talking to Prophet Moosa(as) in that Quran7:157? Allah is narrating the story of Prophet Moosa(as). If you go on to the next verse , Allah is telling Prophet Muhammad(saw) to say (or 'qul') in arabic. This means that Allah is talking to Prophet Muhammad(saw) and you acknowledged it per your post#1 because there would not be any Injeel at the time of Prophet Moosa(as).

With such , how can you manage to understand that 'the Tawrat' in this case means the original (or in your argument , the actual) Torah?

I don't think there is any ad hominem attacks on you. I think you are confused and trying to manipulate the language in your argument. If you think I am wrong , point it out.

Any other versions of the Torah till now (apart from the recompilation of Ezra)?

Truth.8

there is no injil....

sam1528

albatross posted on 22-11-2014 05:08 PM
Is that really what the verse said? It clearly states: "And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein." Nowhere does it state in that verse about them judging by the Injil is so that Allah would judge them. that is only an interpolation by Ibn Kathir.

Second of all, if that is really true, then the question I asked still stand. So just because people refuse to go by the Quran, God is letting people to reject it? What kind of God is that, that he allows people to judge by corrupt books for any reason whatsoever given by them? So Allah is okay with Christians saying Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, and Jews saying Ishmael is a wild ass of a man whose hand shall be against everybody?

Ok then , since you want to take the literal understanding we will address it.

Go back 2 verses and take it from there :
(45) it has been ordained in the Torah the ruling of eye for an eye
(46) the Injeel is a confirmation of the Torah , meaning the laws of the Torah stays
(47) christians need to judge by the Injeel (which confirms the Torah)

Now you need to kill apostates and adulterous couples. My question to you. Where is the Injeel meaning Gospel according to Jesus? In addition , where in bible that states of Jesus admitting that he is God? Why blame Allah because it is the actions of the Christians that came up with the 4 gospels instead of the Gospel according to Jesus.

The question you asked does not stand because you are verse isolating.

kid

So just because people refuse to go by the Quran, God is letting people to reject it?

YES.. that is the FREEWILL given by God. Freedom to choose, accept and reject. Now you know that

So Allah is okay with Christians saying Jesus Christ is God in the flesh

Of course God not okay, that is blasphemy towards God. They will be judged accordingly upon what they did. So that's the WORLD is about, to make choice, to show who the real liars, rebels, good and bad people. It was human who asked to be tested in this world.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 05:20 PM
Allah talking to Prophet Moosa(as) in that Quran7:157? Allah is narrating the story of Prophet Moo ...

He was talking to Moses. Read the context. Moses was asking Allah for mercy, then Allah said, IN REPLY TO MOSES, it started with "HE SAID". here's the verse in context: "He said: I smite with My punishment whom I will, and My mercy embraceth all things, therefore I shall ordain it for those who ward off (evil) and pay the poor-due, and those who believe Our revelations;Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them"

sam1528 posted on 22-11-2014 05:20 PM
With such , how can you manage to understand that 'the Tawrat' in this case means the original (or in your argument , the actual) Torah?

Because that is already given! when you say "THE taurat" without saying anything else, it refers to the actual, original Tawrat unless specified! That's what people would understand when you put a definite article in front of an object, that the speaker is referring to the actual thing!