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Originally posted by bob at 24-7-2006 10:34 PM
and you definitely dont understand islamic banking. interest is guaranteed whilst dividends depends on the outcome of a transaction.
Anyway bob, do you use the service of conventional bank?
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FH3...
Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 24-7-2006 04:09 AM
The reality is the Islamic Banking still using interest but nicely repacked it as profit sharing. Its a nice gimmick and it works.
I already told you people are attracted to the gimmick "NO I ...
Nope. The reality is that, it is known throughout the world, islam forbid riba or interest. I pointed out to you earlier, it is up to you to call anything to suit your agenda, however, for us islamic banking does not involve interest. Once again, INTEREST not equal to PROFIT SHARING.
I already told you people are attracted to the gimmick "NO INTEREST".. when in actual fact it is fixed interest. Some people prefer fixed interest.. so they go for islamic banking which offers profit sharing a.k.a fixed interest. Most of the non-muslim really don't know how the islamic banking works.
[quote]Most of the non-muslim really don't know how the islamic banking works. 揫/quote]
I agree tha most of the non-muslim really don't know how the islamic banking works and does it include you?
Since you like to use the word 憫Gimmick |
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You have not asked the non-muslims why they like to go for Islamic bankings despite many conventional banks around!! I have not yet touching Takaful yet.
simple really.
Conventional banks like Public , Maybank or even chinese banks like OCBC /Hlong offers Fixed Interest Loans packaged with the name 'Islamic Banking'... they offer their variable interest loan as 'conventional loan products'. It's for marketing!!
how do i know ? i went to a few banks just last month inquiring about a housing loan.
Anyway - i did not go for 'islamic banking' because they want me to lock in for 10 years with a slightly lower rate (relative to BLR) than other banks. If the economy tanks and the interest rate goes to 4% - you are locked in at 6.5% tough luck!
Do you guys know anything about banking matters or do you just read , cut and paste |
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bob This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 25-7-2006 12:26 AM
Anyway bob, do you use the service of conventional bank?
you are trying very hard dont you..hehehe? yes i do. but i pose a different q. using a conventional or islamic is not the issue. the issue is - islamic banking is not the same as conventional loan. academics have proven it. inv banks have profess it and commercial banks all over the world have stood by it. and yet you think you know more. but you have yet to deny it. i think the onus is on you to deny it rather than the mainstream bankers. good luck trying. |
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RedChaSiew...
Originally posted by RedChaSiew at 25-7-2006 08:21 PM
simple really.
- Yes. Islamic Finance is simple. Profit and risks are shared between banks and customers.
Conventional banks like Public , Maybank or even chinese banks like OCBC /Hlong offers Fixed Interest
Loans packaged with the name 'Islamic Banking'... they offer their variable interest loan as 'conventional loan products'.
It's for marketing!!
how do i know ? i went to a few banks just last month inquiring about a housing loan.
Pls confirm that You are inquiring housing loan at Public, Maybank and even chinese banks like OCBC/Hlong! If that is the case,
that's why the confusion arises on the understandings by both of you (FH3 and RedChaSiew) when islamic banking services are being offered by Conventional banks.
And also, that's why both of you keep on accusing islamic banking involves INTEREST and equating INTEREST with profit sharing.
Rather than going to those conventional banks that offer islamic banking services, I advise both of you to go first to
Bank Islam Malaysia Berhad (BIMB) i.e. the first Islamic bank established in Malaysia which commenced operations on 1 July 1983.
Spend you precious time to ask them and acquire more knowledge. Pls remember that FH3 even stated that'Most of
the non-muslim really don't know how the islamic banking works'. When you ask BIMB, don't forget to ask about Takaful for example on Housing or Car.
For your initial info before you go there, the BIMB banking activities are based on Syariah principles. After more than a decade
in operations, BIMB has proved to be a viable banking institution with its activity expanding rapidly throughout the country with a
network of 80 branches and 1,200 employees. The bank was listed on the Main Board of the Kuala Lumpur
Stock Exchange on 17 January 1992. (http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=174&pg=467&ac=367)
Anyway - i did not go for 'islamic banking' because they want me to lock in for 10 years with a slightly
lower rate (relative to BLR) than other banks. If the economy tanks and the
interest rate goes to 4% - you are locked in at 6.5% tough luck!
For me, it is simple. If you do not want to go for islamic banking, it is up to you, it's your money anyway and it's you choice. So you go ahead with your conventional banks.
Do you guys know anything about banking matters or do you just read , cut and paste
Yes, I know and I am learning. I got my MBA 7 years ago.
An excerpt from Bank Negara Malaysia website:
Islamic Banks (Malaysia):
Bank Islam Malaysia Berhad
Bank Muamalat Malaysia Berhad
Commerce TIJARI Bank Berhad
Hong Leong Islamic Bank Berhad
Kuwait Finance House (Malaysia) Berhad
RHB ISLAMIC Bank Berhad
Affin Islamic Bank Berhad
EONCAP Islamic Bank Berhad
Overview of Islamic Banking in Malaysia:
Since the 1970s, Islamic banking has emerged as a new reality in the international financial scene.
Its philosophies and principles are however, not new, having been outlined in the Holy Qur'an
and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) more than 1,400 years ago. The emergence of Islamic
banking is often related to the revival of Islam and the desire of Muslims to live all aspects of their live
in accordance with the teachings of Islam
Sources:
http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=174&pg=467&ac=367
http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=174&pg=467&ac=369
http://www.islamic-banking.com/ibanking/statusib.php
[ Last edited by anta at 26-7-2006 01:13 AM ] |
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Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
Nope. The reality is that, it is known throughout the world, islam forbid riba or interest.
But apparently muslims don't mind indulging in interest taking and giving.
Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
I pointed out to you earlier, it is up to you to call anything to suit your agenda, however, for us islamic banking does not involve interest. Once again, INTEREST not equal to PROFIT SHARING.
We know the meaning of profit sharing but islamic banks missuse the term profit-sharing when they use interest based calculation to arrive at the "profit-sharing". The interest they use is close to what the conventional banks are giving.
Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
2.
a. An innovative stratagem or scheme employed especially to promote a project: an advertising gimmick.
If I take a few of those definitions, you are really in the mode of accusing something that you do not know or do not want to know.
read again meaning that you gave..
Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
If you go back again to the description about Murabaha as follows:
"Murabaha is a contract for purchase and resale and allows the customer to make purchases without having to take out a loan and pay interest. Islamic Bank of Britain purchases the goods for the customer, and re-sells them to the customer on a deferred basis, adding an agreed profit margin. The customer then pays the sale price for the goods over instalments, effectively obtaining credit without paying interest"
http://www.islamic-bank.com/isla ... ome.jsp#defMurabaha
It (Murabaha) is a form of 'trust sale' since the buyer must trust that the seller is disclosing his true costs. After discussing the true costs, a profit margin may be agreed either on a percentage of cost basis or as a fixed amount.
Relating to the above definition, the seller (Islamic bank) is disclosing his (Islamic bank) TRUE COSTS and THERE IS AGREEMENT between both parties on the profit margin between the banks and the customers.
It may be similar to fixed interest loan of conventional banks where the "true cost' is also known. If you disagree that interest is used to calculate the "true cost" in islamic banking then tell me how do the islamic bank come up with the value that you have to pay back.
tell me how they do the calculations?
Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
Is he/she a muslim?
Could you pls give the name of the bank at that time 1998~9 and nowadays?
Could you pls clarify your statement above that your statement equate islamic bank with the conventional bank? if you read again your sentences that you have written
He is a hindu, anyway does it make any difference if the person who takes the loan is non-muslim? why do you ask wheather he is muslim or not?
and why does it matter what bank it was? the issue is islamic banking not which bank.
Originally posted by anta at 25-7-2006 01:02 PM]
If that抯 the case, to you, all banks are similar i.e. no matter whether they are islamic banks or conventional. Once again, pls clarify your statement!
In conventional banking, after few years of monthy repaying, the principle amount will do down. But in your islamic banking the principle amount goes up to the "true cost" that is( principal amount) + (interest calculated for the number of years in affect) - (monthly paid amount).
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Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 27-7-2006 09:20 PM
But apparently muslims don't mind indulging in interest taking and giving.
* Read the last paragraph in my previous post
" Since the 1970s, Islamic banking has emerged as a new reality in the international financial scene. Its philosophies and principles are however, not new, having been outlined in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) more than 1,400 years ago. The emergence of Islamic banking is often related to the revival of Islam and the desire of Muslims to live all aspects of their live in accordance with the teachings of Islam"
Remember the underline words. As muslims we do mind NOT to indulge in interest taking and giving.
Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 27-7-2006 09:20 PM
We know the meaning of profit sharing but islamic banks missuse the term profit-sharing when they use interest based calculation to arrive at the "profit-sharing". The interest they use is close to what the conventional banks are giving.
Another accusation by FH3 with the word 憁issuse |
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faithealer, in malaysia, usually the interest rate for islamic loan is much lower, and it's fixed throughout the tenure. conventional loan, on the other hand, depends very much on the BLR, so it will fluctuate throughout the tenure. the conventional loan that you're talking about in your last posting is based on new schemes introduced by certain banks like SCB, HSBC. but still, the rate depends on current BLR.
and please read the newspaper, islamic finance is a reality and lotsa FI are turning into islamic banking. recently SCB tied up with bank muamalat so they could offer islamic banking to their customers. not only that, even dow jones got islamic index...
i''m not sure where this figure comes from, but it was said that 60% of islamic banking customers are non-muslims. this is because they know the benefits of islamic banking than conventional ones... even islamic insurance products offer better return than conventional ones... |
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Infact, in Bible too God made very stern statements that increasing high interest is not allowed. I would like to see if Christian Banking established base on Biblical God statements.
Leviticus 25:36-37 (King James Version)
36Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
37Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
Usury or Interest
The lending of money or other property for increase.
Leviticus 25:37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
Those enriched by unlawful, not allowed to enjoy their gain.
Psalms 28:8 The LORD is their strength, and he is the saving strength of his anointed.
The curse attending the giving or receiving of unlawful, alluded to.
Jeremiah 15:10 Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent on usury, nor men have lent to me on usury; yet every one of them doth curse me.
THE JEWS
Forbidden to take, from brethren.
Deuteronomy 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
Forbidden to take, from brethren specially when poor.
Exodus 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Leviticus 25:35-37 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
Often guilty of taking.
Nehemiah 5:6-7 And I was very angry when I heard their cry and these words. Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them.
Required to restore.
Nehemiah 5:9-13 Also I said, It is not good that ye do: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies? I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury. Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them. Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they should do according to this promise. Also I shook my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, and from his labour, that performeth not this promise, even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the congregation said, Amen, and praised the LORD. And the people did according to this promise. ...
Allowed to take, from strangers.
Deuteronomy 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
True and faithful Israelites never took, from their brethren.
Psalms 15:5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.
Ezekiel 18:8-9 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Judgments denounced against those who exacted unlawful.
Isaiah 24:1-2 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Illustrative of the improvement of talents received from God.
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Luke 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
[ Last edited by Truth.8 at 29-7-2006 11:22 AM ] |
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>>>>>>>>>>>
faithealer, in malaysia, usually the interest rate for islamic loan is much lower, and it's fixed throughout the tenure. conventional loan, on the other hand, depends very much on the BLR, so it will fluctuate throughout the tenure.
<<<<<<<<<<<
it is only slightly lower - not "much lower" - just go into a bank.
Fluctuations means - if the interest rates are lowered - you still pay the fixed amount of interest eventhough mkt rate BLR has already dropped - like in the case of stagflation and recession. |
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Originally posted by anta at 26-7-2006 01:10 AM
Overview of Islamic Banking in Malaysia:
Since the 1970s, Islamic banking has emerged as a new reality in the international financial scene.
Its philosophies and principles are however, not new, having been outlined in the Holy Qur'an
and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) more than 1,400 years ago. The emergence of Islamic
banking is often related to the revival of Islam and the desire of Muslims to live all aspects of their live
in accordance with the teachings of Islam
Can you give more details from Quran and Hadiths about the philosophies and principles of islamic banking?
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Originally posted by anta at 29-7-2006 03:41 AM
The emergence of Islamic banking is often related to the revival of Islam and the desire of Muslims to live all aspects of their live in accordance with the teachings of Islam"
Remember the underline words. As muslims we do mind NOT to indulge in interest taking and giving.
If what you claim is true than all muslim will rush only to islamic banking. They will avoid any banks that gives or takes riba. But reality is not so. Many muslims still indulge in conventional banking that gives and takes riba when alternative islamic banking is availbale. Am i right or wrong?
[quote]Originally posted by anta at 29-7-2006 03:41 AM
Another accusation by FH3 with the word 憁issuse |
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bob This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 29-7-2006 07:28 PM
If what you claim is true than all muslim will rush only to islamic banking. They will avoid any banks that gives or takes riba. But reality is not so. Many muslims still indulge in convention ...
fh, you contradict yourself. you dont like dogmas but you practice one yourself.. how? others have rights too. muslims have right to practice islamic banking and conventional too. but you are forcing your opinion that muslims should use just conventional. you are effected - anything islamic is wrong to you. your opinions are biased and now hold no more substance as it is hate driven rather than academics. |
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Originally posted by bob at 29-7-2006 10:46 PM
fh, you contradict yourself. you dont like dogmas but you practice one yourself.. how? others have rights too. muslims have right to practice islamic banking and conventional too. but you are f ...
Bob, my point is to expose the hypocrisy in islamic banking. I think i have done that quite well.
Islamic banking portray as if there is no interest at all in islamic banking but the truth is islamic banking rely on interest.
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FH3...
FH3...
You missed and neglected many points that I had brought up. Once again, before answering your statements and before going further, I would like you (F3) to answers the followings:
1. What is your religion?
2. Can you confirm the following statements that
• You(FH3) are not a muslim and you require details explanations about USURY/RIBA/INTEREST?
• You(FH3) are equating Islamic bankings with Conventional bankings? and all banks are similar!
• You(FH3) really hate Islam and muslims?
[ Last edited by anta at 30-7-2006 08:33 AM ] |
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Originally posted by anta at 30-7-2006 08:29 AM
FH3...
You missed and neglected many points that I had brought up. Once again, before answering your statements and before going further, I would like you (F3) to answers the followings:
1. What is your religion?
2. Can you confirm the following statements that
• You(FH3) are not a muslim and you require details explanations about USURY/RIBA/INTEREST?
• You(FH3) are equating Islamic bankings with Conventional bankings? and all banks are similar!
• You(FH3) really hate Islam and muslims?
I hv answered your question in post #33.
Pls read again.
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anta - stop being so paranoia and defensive. nobody hates you! |
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FH3...
Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 30-7-2006 10:26 AM
I hv answered your question in post #33.
Pls read again.
FH3,
Read again your post. Is this what you call answer?
Anta question Q1.
1. What is your religion?
FH3 answer:
what relevant does my religion have on the subject we are debating on?
Anta Question Q2:
2. Can you confirm the following statements that
a) You(FH3) are not a muslim and you require details explanations about USURY/RIBA/INTEREST?
b) You(FH3) are equating Islamic bankings with Conventional bankings? and all banks are similar!
c) You(FH3) really hate Islam and muslims?
FH3 answer:
2a) yeap. i want to know why riba is still used in islamic banking.
2b) my view is that islamic banking runs on interest but the banks are cheating the public with thier gimmick that their banking is interest-free.
2c) I hate any dogma that discriminate those who don't follow thier version of religion and I hate those who discriminate others based on religion.
Once again, read again.
Originally posted by RedChaSiew at 30-7-2006 09:29 PM
anta - stop being so paranoia and defensive. nobody hates you!
RedChaSiew,
It would be better for you to answer the above 4 questions too.
FH3,
Since from the beginning of my post, I want to educate you and RedChaSiew a little bit. As a muslim, InsyaAllah, I will challenge your thinking ability. You don't have to worry on the relevancy to the topic(thread) that you had started. It will be related to the topic.
While waiting for your answer to the above, for a start
Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمـَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
Narrated Abu Hurairah:
The Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens
himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not
be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that
you will be rewarded; and gain strength by offering the Salat(prayers) in the
mornings, afternoons and during the last hours of the nights." (See Fath Ab-Bari, Vol
1, Page 102) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, Hadith No.38)
Islam is my way of life.
http://www.geocities.com/mewatch99/
[ Last edited by anta at 30-7-2006 11:31 PM ] |
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Originally posted by anta at 30-7-2006 10:52 PM
FH3,
Read again your post. Is this what you call answer?
Anta question Q1.
1. What is your religion?
FH3 answer:
what relevant does my religion have on the subject we are debating on?
well then answer my question: what relevant does my religion have on the subjuct we are debating on?
Instead of asking irrelevant question, you should concentrate on islamic banking calculation. From the example that you gave its been proven that RIBA is used in islamic banking. How are you going to dismiss the obvious?
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Author
Post time 25-7-2006 01:02 PM
