The evil that had blinded Muslims

eastrun · Post time 13-4-2007 07:16 PM

1)
My dear fellow we are talking about rape of a woman and not adultry. You seem to confused always. Adulrty is a different matter althogather. Tell me about rape. How will a womn in Islam proof that she was raped and what does the syariah law on this matter?

My answer:
Yes, we are talking about rape. What I was trying to show you that the four witnesses method is only for those who committed adultery. So, when you show to me that the method has been used for rape, then I become curious with the originality of the article.You confused about the four witnesses method.That is why you follow the article Blindly.

In Islam, for the one who rape the woman, for sure will be punished.Because rape is an evil.But once again la, in order to proof that what the woman claimed also we need witness to prove and investigate the woman's body, whether she really has been raped or not!.

But for sure during the Judgement, the one who raped the woman, will be punish with heavier punishment.Even though, he might escape on earth...but in the Judgement Day..Sorry...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
I'm not asking about adultry. Even adultry can be set upon if the husban cand get four of his friends to lie in court. But today under modern law all a husband needs is to proof it by hiring PI's to take intimate pictures of his wife with whoever she is having an affair and that goes to men too who cheat on their wives. See how fair the modern law is compared to Islamic laws. But the matter in discussion is rape and tell me how does a rape victim needs to proof that she was raped according to Islamic law? I want to know. Please quote the verse on this matter.

My answer:
Then you think the modern laws do not need witnesses to prove whether the husband's claim is right or not?.Even with modern laws also people can lies with a perfect plan.About how to proof the woman has been raped, is by investigate the woman's body and for sure need proof in order to say the woman was raped.Same goes to the modern laws.Because you cannot simply accuse the woman or the man. Look what Allah say in order to take someone as witness:

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as
against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or
poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye
swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-
acquainted with all that ye do."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:135)

And the Justful witness will help in proving whether the woman has been raped or not.Plus with the investigation of the woman's body.

And in Islamic laws, a woman should wear a 'cawat besi' in order to prevent her to be raped. So, it is mercy of Islamic law to protect women from being raped or commit adultery.

And it applies only for Muslims,so you no need have to worry

OK, now your turn, what Hindusm says about this?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
Suc explanation has no bearing to us.

My answer:
Not to us but to you...Once again:

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether
thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:6)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)
Abraham was a prophet of the Jews and he spoke fo rthe Jews and not anyone outside the Jewish clan. The contens of the Quran ahs quotes from the bible and Torah which proves that it wanted to be part of the Jewish faith. Allah is not the Jewish GOD because the Jews has a name for their GOD and that is YHWH. So, if Muslims claim that Allah is the same as YHWH is not a confirmation but to delude the Jews and Christians.

My answer:
Abraham is the forefather of Muhammad...came from his son, Ismail.As you know, Abraham got two wives, one is Hagar and another one is Sarah. Sarah is a Jew and Hagar is an Arab. From Sarah, Abraham got Ishak and from Hagar, he got Ismail (mixed blood(Arabian and Jews)and Muhammad came from family line of Ismail.Therefore, Muhammad is in the family line of Abraham.

About the name of God.Yes, the Jews called the God as YHWH or translated Jehovah.But it is all about language.In Bahasa and Indonesia, the word Allah does in the Bible. So, it referred to same God.So, name is not a problem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
There is no record in the Jewish scripture that kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismail. It is the claim of the Muslims.

My answer:
Yes, but there is a record in the Bible, story about Hagar and Abraham.Have you read the story where Abraham brought Hagar away because Sarah is jealous with Hagar .And the Quran re-add the story and confirming the previous story where did Abraham had taken his wife.Like I said before, the Bible quoting the story, the confirmation is in the Quran.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
Harga, for your information was a slave of Abraham who conceived when Sarah could not have a baby. But when Sarah became pregnant with a child Abraham drove off Hagar and her son into the desert. She wondered in the desert for many years. Read about that in the Jewish bible.

My answer:
Yes, Abraham brought Hagar to the dessert, but the Bible didn't say what Hagar has done in the dessert. And that is the starting point of establishment of Kaaba and the existence of Zam-Zam waterThe Quran confirming that. And the proof is what you can see in Mecca.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)
The style is diferent because it was written in poetic style by Persian and Arabic poets of the 8th century. Nothing difficult when you already have a scripture of the Jews in hand. Morever you msut remember that Khatija's cousin was a Christian who had a bible and from that too the Quranic verse could be replicated. Please do not misjudge our intelligence

My answer:
Let see what Allah say about this:

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is
no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:"(Surah Yaasiin 36:69)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eastrun · Post time 13-4-2007 08:02 PM

8)
Sure you can calim as such but the Jews do not think so because their messiah had yet to come and for Christians after Jesus they are still expecting his return at the original place of his birth and not Mohammed who was born in Mecca. Sure I too can create a new religion and say it is the continuation of the Jewish and Christian faith butthey would not accept it because how could a Jewish GOD pick an Indian for messiah for the Jews or Christians. So, Muslims can claim all they want but for the last 1400 years you could not convience the Jews or Christians and so they became your enemies.

My answer:
Of course the Jews won't believe what the Christan claim, even though the prophecies are there in the Book.Furthermore, how could you expect that they will except Jesus as the messiah?.They don't even read the Injeel (Gospel) which confirming the prophecies in their book.That is why they never believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

And for Christians they believe that Jesus will come back and Muslims also believe in that.That Jesus will come.

Then, how could you say that Muhammad took them as enemies?.In fact the Christian should say thank you to Muhammad,because even though Muhammad came from different race, still he brought a scripture(with Allah permission) which protecting Jesus and his mother.See Surah Maryam, the 19th Surah in the Holy Quran.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9)
When our religious laws needed to be changed its GOD that would incarnate on earth in the form of man. He did that in the last Yuga and that was in the form of Krishna and gave us Gita. He had promised to return from yuga to yuga and we are expecting HIM to return at the end of Kali Yuga in the form of Kalki.  But ofcourse we would not be here in this form to see HIM because that is a few hundred thousand years left for HIS return. But in between  we have many divine souls who have come to confirm the Gita and that is our inspiration and guide to our life. We know GOD is All Mighty and Omnipresent who could do anything if HE wishes and we have no power to question HIS motiff. When we see a divine soul we know that our religion is forever save and the law of Karma is at work. GOD is observes and would only intervene when it is time for HIM to do so. HE does not punish you nor would cure you to hellfire. HE is All Forgiving and Mercifull at the same time watch over us because HE knows we remember HIM always through our prayer offered to HIM at the temples and homes. So, why do you think we need to confirm to your faith?

My answer:
Yes, He is Forgiving and that is why he give us chance to repent and do good deeds. And at the last day, he will gather all of us in a place called Padang Mahsyar. And that time, He will decide to give you punishment or reward you.Base on what you have done.That shows He is Justful.He is not simply punish you but he will only punish you when you are not following the right path and do bad deeds. And in order to keep human stay in His path, He sent His prophets to remind the peoples.

But, is this the core of the discussion?. I ask you to proof to me, is there any prophet that came after Muhammad and re-correct the laws his brought?,You are not answering me, but talks rubbish..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10)
No, the Quran was made to confrim by Mohammed so that Christians would accept Islam as their new religion after Christianity. This was a ploy to net the Christians when Jews refused to accept Mohammed. Come on, surely you can see the motiff of his claim.

My answer:
That is the answer of the Jews when the Christians claimed that their books have fulfilled the prophecies.Will you say the same thing to Christianity?.That their Jesus  asked his disciples to produce the Gospel in order to deceive the Jews, so that they accept Jesus as the Messiah?.I wonder if you are in the Jews side.But, Islam, with no doubt confirming the existence of Jesus as the Messiah, the Gospel and the Torah.Islam is the religion that re-correct the argument between those two faiths.So, Muhammad is not making them as enemies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11)
Wrong my friend! The Gospel does not say that GOD had asked Mary to name him Christ Jesus. Looks like Muslim writers made a serious error here. Gabriel only asked Mary to name him Jesus and the Christ came later. That is the problem when you make other's religion as part of yours when you have not studied fully about its origin and Arab Musilms fail to do that. Or may be they wanted to make something of their own to proof they are right. Sorry me dear fellow, bad copy.

My answer:
Did the Quran say that the name of the Christ came during his birth?.No..See the verse:

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word
from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this
world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God"(Surah Al-Imran 3:45)

See the word WILL BE.The verse said the son will be named as Christ Jesus, but Quran didn't say it is when Jesus was a baby or when he grew up.But his name WILL BE CHRIST JESUS.Sorry my friend, if you compare the Quranic and Biblical version regarding the birth of Jesus, surely the Quranic version is more beautiful,But, they are talking a same thing!.Quran is perfect.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12)
Well, that is your claim but not the Jews or Christians.

My answer:
Ask the Christian about the prophecies in the Bible, sure they will give the same answer like I have given to you.But, no  doubt Islam confirming what they have talked about because Islam is the religion of peaceful and settling the argument between those two faiths about the existence of Jesus Christ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13)
How can you confirm that it was the same angel? It is the word of Mohammed and him alone. Morever he said it was a dream. Mohammed was asleep in the cave when he dreamt of such incident. Whereas when Gabriel spoke to Mary she was awake and aware of the voice. That is why I say you need to go deep when you want to study anything related to religion. Always put the question why? how? for what?. Only by such you could realy get to the truth.

My answer:
Refer to the Quran and the Bible la. You see, Gabriel came to Mary to tell about the birth of Jesus.Bible says and Quran confirmed.Proofing that the angel is really angel and the angel named Gabriel.And the angel that has given the revelation to Muhammad also named Gabriel.So, it is the same angel.Muhammad is not dreaming when he received the revelation.If not, how can he run home after he saw Gabriel and received the first revelation in Hira' cave?.I wonder if when you are sleeping, you can run home perfectly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14)
My dear fellow the Quran did not exist before Mohammed so how can it confirm? Use logic when dealing with such matters. Quran only existed after Mohammed began to have dreams and said he received messages from Gabriel. Before that there was no Quran so how could it confirm? We are living in the 21st century and not the 7th century to accept anything told by Muslims.

My answer:

Like Jesus, the Gospel existed after his death.But the word of the Gospel is believed came from him.And it confirmed what has been told in the Torah.Of course la the Quran came after Muhammad.If the Quran came before Muhammad, then of course Muhammad is not the one who has received the revelation.Think about that.That is why i TOLD you to read the Holy Quran.iT CONFIRMING the Gospel as well as the Torah.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15)
Rejecting or accepting Jesus as their messiah was the prerogative of the Jews. But for Mohammed to claim as their prophet was rediclues and malicious. Mohammed thought that he could gain more by doing so or whatever reason he had at the time to claim as suh.

My answer:
Huh..same answer..with assumptions.Islam is the religion of peace and no doubt Quran confimed the existence of Jesus Christ and Muhammad should not be insulted because of that.But for a blind people like you, you cannot see why Muhammad was chosen to confirm that, even though he came from different race .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16)
the style may be different because the person who had the task to compile the Quran wanted it look as authentic from the Arabic view point and so hired Arab and Persian poets to replicate the Torah abd the bible. Nothing strange or unique about it.

My answer:

Allah answered:

"When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!".By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!"(Surah Mutafifin 83:13~14)

barney50 · Post time 13-4-2007 08:25 PM

Reply #221 eastrun's post

by eastrun:
Yes, we are talking about rape. What I was trying to show you that the
four witnesses method is only for those who committed adultery. So,
when you show to me that the method has been used for rape, then I
become curious with the originality of the article.You confused about
the four witnesses method.That is why you follow the article Blindly.

Copy the Code

Are you confused? You know very well my question was about rape of a woman in Islam and what does the syariah law says about reporting rape. But here you are trying to deviate the question and instead giving me something else. Pleas keep to the matter.

In Islam, for the one who rape the woman, for sure will be
punished.Because rape is an evil.But once again la, in order to proof
that what the woman claimed also we need witness to prove and
investigate the woman's body, whether she really has been raped or not!.
But for sure during the Judgement, the one who raped the woman, will be
punish with heavier punishment.Even though, he might escape on
earth...but in the Judgement Day..Sorry...

Copy the Code

Do not evade the issue. Please give the verse in the Quran on how syariah wuld handle rape cases. That is all I ask for and please do not go out of track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Then you think the modern laws do not need witnesses to prove whether
the husband's claim is right or not?.Even with modern laws also people
can lies with a perfect plan.About how to proof the woman has been
raped, is by investigate the woman's body and for sure need proof in
order to say the woman was raped.Same goes to the modern laws.Because
you cannot simply accuse the woman or the man. Look what Allah say in
order to take someone as witness:
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as
against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or
poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye
swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-
acquainted with all that ye do."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:135)

Copy the Code

What modern law needs to commital of adultry is strict proof which would involve photograph of the wife have the affir with her lover, neighbours who had seen the lover going inot the house while the husband is away or hotel room receipts in her name or her lovers name. Many ways to determine the guilt so no problem on that issue and the same applies to the husband too. The PI's have many modern gadgets to nap the culprits. But in Islam it needs four wittness and that can always be set up by the husband but the poor wife cannot do such because it always the man to have any number of wives. There goes justice in the drain and the syariah law only favours the husband. But the verse above is silent on the proof of rape. So you mean to say there is no law on rape?

And the Justful witness will help in proving whether the woman has been
raped or not.Plus with the investigation of the woman's body.
And in Islamic laws, a woman should wear a 'cawat besi' in order to
prevent her to be raped. So, it is mercy of Islamic law to protect
women from being raped or commit adultery.
And it applies only for Muslims,so you no need have to worry
OK, now your turn, what Hindusm says about this?.

Copy the Code

That is absurd. Chastity belt is a medival tradition and even in Europe it had been in use in the 17th century. We are living in morden society and you expect Muslim women to wear that? You must be another Nik Aziz the lunatic. What justful wittness? Can you please explain that? No, it is not my turn yet as you have not answered my question how syariah law act on rape report. Answer that and I'll tell you how rape cases were handled during the vedic time. But anywayHindus do not implement such laws now because India is not run by Vedic laws. So, it serves no purpose now but Islam is because many countries are under Islamic laws and the human rights commission had reported women are treated with contempt. That is why you have to answer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Not to us but to you...Once again:
"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether
thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:6)

Copy the Code

I think you are wrong. This verse was formulated to despise the pagans of Mecca and not anyone outside Mecca. You have to realize that it was Mohammed who ploted to do away with the pagan worship his father and his clans men. When the idea was mooted he had to be strict in his implementation and so came up with such verses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Abraham is the forefather of Muhammad...came from his son,
Ismail.As you know, Abraham got two wives, one is Hagar and another
one is Sarah. Sarah is a Jew and Hagar is an Arab. From Sarah, Abraham
got Ishak and from Hagar, he got Ismail (mixed blood(Arabian and
Jews)and Muhammad came from family line of Ismail.Therefore, Muhammad
is in the family line of Abraham.

Copy the Code

My dear fellow please go back to the history of Abraham. He did not have two wives but only one and hagar was a maid in waiting. She was a slave woman who waited on Sarah. Since Sarah could not conceive due to old age she allowed Abraham to consumate with Hagar and she bore a child for him but later GOD blessed Sarah and she became pregnant and that was when Abraham decided to sent away Hagar and her son into the desert to fend for themsleves. You have to study the history on "The Family of Abraham"

http://injil.org/Books/FamOfAbraham.html.

About the name of God.Yes, the Jews called the God as YHWH or
translated Jehovah.But it is all about language.In Bahasa and
Indonesia, the word Allah does in the Bible. So, it referred to same
God.So, name is not a problem.

Copy the Code

It is a problem because you use the Arabic term Allah to say it has no Gender but YHWH has gender and it is male. So the Jewish GOD cannot be Allah.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Yes, but there is a record in the Bible, story about Hagar and
Abraham.Have you read the story where Abraham brought Hagar away
because Sarah is jealous with Hagar .And the Quran re-add the story and
confirming the previous story where did Abraham had taken his wife.Like
I said before, the Bible quoting the story, the confirmation is in the
Quran.

Copy the Code

No, it is not but may be it is in a bible created by Muslims.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Yes, Abraham brought Hagar to the dessert, but the Bible didn't say
what Hagar has done in the dessert. And that is the starting point of
establishment of Kaaba and the existence of Zam-Zam waterThe Quran
confirming that. And the proof is what you can see in Mecca.

Copy the Code

I have said before and I say it now Abraham did not built the kaaba but may he built a podok for Hagar and her son and that pondok was used by the Meccans for the pagan religion centuries later. To rememebr that now Muslims have sekolah pondok. That figures very well and after Mohamemd founded Islam he rebuild it inot a kaaba. See, it only needs figuring out and the truth will be revealed
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Let see what Allah say about this:
"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is
no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:"(Surah Yaasiin 36:69)

Copy the Code

Sure such verses could be written and is no big deal.

wira_melayu · Post time 14-4-2007 02:40 AM

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-4-2007 08:25 PM

I have said before and I say it now Abraham did not built the kaaba but may he built a podok for Hagar and her son and that pondok was used by the Meccans for the pagan religion centuries later. To rememebr that now Muslims have sekolah pondok. That figures very well and after Mohamemd founded Islam he rebuild it inot a kaaba. See, it only needs figuring out and the truth will be revealed

Its pointless to argue without showing the facts, can you disapproves it?

eastrun · Post time 15-4-2007 12:20 PM

1)
Are you confused? You know very well my question was about rape of a woman in Islam and what does the syariah law says about reporting rape. But here you are trying to deviate the question and instead giving me something else. Pleas keep to the matter. Do not evade the issue. Please give the verse in the Quran on how syariah wuld handle rape cases. That is all I ask for and please do not go out of track.What modern law needs to commital of adultry is strict proof which would involve photograph of the wife have the affir with her lover, neighbours who had seen the lover going inot the house while the husband is away or hotel room receipts in her name or her lovers name. Many ways to determine the guilt so no problem on that issue and the same applies to the husband too. The PI's have many modern gadgets to nap the culprits. But in Islam it needs four wittness and that can always be set up by the husband but the poor wife cannot do such because it always the man to have any number of wives. There goes justice in the drain and the syariah law only favours the husband. But the verse above is silent on the proof of rape. So you mean to say there is no law on rape?

My answer:
The law is by wearing the cawat besi. As we all know the prevention is better than cure.There is law about for those who have been raped in Islam, but if I show to you, surely you won't believe it and will say it is created. So, I suggest you to read this book : Women status in criminal laws of Islam- distributed by Yayasan Dakwah Islamiah Malaysia (Islamic Da'wah Foundation Malaysia).The author is Paizah Haji Ismail. Have a read.

Because I am not able to give a brief explanation here.Because short explanation won't make you understand.But Islam is there to protect those who have been raped.

Regarding the four witnesses method.Even though the law looks fragile in the eyes of you, but you have to remember, the modern laws also very fragile. Because you also can cheat the Court by hiring the best lawyer and perfect plan.Even with brief investigation, you also can escape yourself from being accused. So, you cannot just simply blame Islamic law for that.

So, the best way here is by preventing. The use of cawat besi is acceptable.BUT. it applies to the Muslims only and it is not compulsory.So, have a read and May Allah clears your mind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
hat is absurd. Chastity belt is a medival tradition and even in Europe it had been in use in the 17th century. We are living in morden society and you expect Muslim women to wear that? You must be another Nik Aziz the lunatic. What justful wittness? Can you please explain that? No, it is not my turn yet as you have not answered my question how syariah law act on rape report. Answer that and I'll tell you how rape cases were handled during the vedic time. But anywayHindus do not implement such laws now because India is not run by Vedic laws. So, it serves no purpose now but Islam is because many countries are under Islamic laws and the human rights commission had reported women are treated with contempt. That is why you have to answer.

My answer:
It is not cruel, but it is the way to prevent the women from getting raped.Do you meant that preventing the women from being raped is a cruel thing?.Then, you support the women to be raped?.But, you have to think ,if Islamic law is cruel, of course it will make the use of cawat besi as COMPULSORY, but no, you need to make a choice.But for better protection, the use of cawat is acceptable. About the law, I have asked you to read the book, therefore, please have a read and clear your mind regarding this.

Yes, it is your turn!.You have asked me about the Islamic law regarding this, and now I want to know what your religion says about this.

And, Im really curious, why you are so worry with Islamic laws.The laws are not applied on you, then why should you mess your old brain with them?.If you want to think that they are old laws, then keep on thinking like that!.Because the laws have nothing to do with you.You are very annoying!!.

But when I read the Vedas, there are verses show that women are not special in Hinduism.For example:

"Indra himself hath said, The mind of woman brooks not discipline,Her intellect hath little weight."(Rig Veda book number 8/Indra 33/verse 17)

"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - (Rig Veda book 10/95/verse 15.

Look at The Holy Quran.Women are so special.In fact there is a Surah named Surah An-Nisa' (the 4th Surah), dedicated for women!.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
My dear fellow please go back to the history of Abraham. He did not have two wives but only one and hagar was a maid in waiting. She was a slave woman who waited on Sarah. Since Sarah could not conceive due to old age she allowed Abraham to consumate with Hagar and she bore a child for him but later GOD blessed Sarah and she became pregnant and that was when Abraham decided to sent away Hagar and her son into the desert to fend for themsleves. You have to study the history on "The Family of Abraham"

My answer:
On that time, slave is 'halal' to be sleep with because there is no law saying that is wrong.Like I said before, the law just came with Moses which I have revealed to you in the book of Leviticus.In Islamic view Hagar was his wife.What you have followed is in the Christian view.But the story of where Abraham brought the son and Hagar to the desert, is the starting point of the establishment of Kaaba.Yes, the Bible didn't say that because the confirmation is in the last book, The Holy Quran.You have to study the Holy Quran in order to know that Quran is fulfilling the prophecies and the stories in the Holy Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)
It is a problem because you use the Arabic term Allah to say it has no Gender but YHWH has gender and it is male. So the Jewish GOD cannot be Allah.

My answer:
You see...if you open the Hebrew Bible, you will see the God called as Elohim. For example in the Genesis chapter 1 verse 1:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. "(Genesis 1:verse 1)

In Hebrew, the word God is ELOHIM.

ELOH /ELAH stands for God and IM (is Plural of Respect) for God.

So, God was called ELAH...ELAH...ELAH...same like Allah...Allah...Allah...even though in the Judaism, God has gender, but still it referred to the same God.The way the believe in God is different,but it referred to SAME GOD and the God name is ELOHIM.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
No, it is not but may be it is in a bible created by Muslims.

My answer:
Obviously you are not reading the book of Genesis, so better keep quiet, or else you are just revealing that you are not doing your homework in claiming something.

"Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this handmaid and her son. For the son of this handmaid shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."(Genesis 21:10)

See how jealous she was!!.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
I have said before and I say it now Abraham did not built the kaaba but may he built a podok for Hagar and her son and that pondok was used by the Meccans for the pagan religion centuries later. To rememebr that now Muslims have sekolah pondok. That figures very well and after Mohamemd founded Islam he rebuild it inot a kaaba. See, it only needs figuring out and the truth will be revealed

My answer:
Show to me in the Bible saying that Abraham built a pondok for his wife(Islamic view)/slave (Christian view). Muhammad didn't built the KAABA, The Kaaba existed long before the Christian and Judaism.So, the truth has been revealed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)
Sure such verses could be written and is no big deal.

My answer:
It shows that Quran already knew (by Allah permission) that people like that(accuse Muhammad wrote Poems in the Quran) will exist.Therefore Allah sent the verse to answer the pointless claim.I repeat,

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is
no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:"(Surah Yaasiin 36:69)

"That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth)."(Surah Yaasiin 36:70)

barney50 · Post time 15-4-2007 03:02 PM

Reply #225 eastrun's post

:
The law is by wearing the cawat besi. As we all know the prevention is
better than cure.There is law about for those who have been raped in
Islam, but if I show to you, surely you won't believe it and will say
it is created. So, I suggest you to read this book : Women status in
criminal laws of Islam- distributed by Yayasan Dakwah Islamiah Malaysia
(Islamic Da'wah Foundation Malaysia).The author is Paizah Haji Ismail.
Have a read.

Copy the Code

So, you are afraid to show the verse? Why, is it bias that women are not given the equal opportunity as men? You spoke about iyt and yet you fail to show me here what the syariah law saya about rape. That is why I told you such laws are man made for their onw selfish gain. The 8th century Arab Muslims had ulterior motive to come up with such syariah laws. Such outdated laws are for barbarians and not civiliae people.

Because I am not able to give a brief explanation here.Because short
explanation won't make you understand.But Islam is there to protect
those who have been raped.
Regarding the four witnesses method.Even though the law looks fragile
in the eyes of you, but you have to remember, the modern laws also very
fragile. Because you also can cheat the Court by hiring the best lawyer
and perfect plan.Even with brief investigation, you also can escape
yourself from being accused. So, you cannot just simply blame Islamic
law for that.
So, the best way here is by preventing. The use of cawat besi is
acceptable.BUT. it applies to the Muslims only and it is not
compulsory.So, have a read and May Allah clears your mind.

Copy the Code

Your Islam is defeated here today because your excuse in comparison is with civil law failed because you said syariah aws are divine law but your failure to show the verse proves it is not. I'd suggest you give your wife the cawat besi to proof your point instead of preaching to the public.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
It is not cruel, but it is the way to prevent the women from getting
raped.Do you meant that preventing the women from being raped is a
cruel thing?.Then, you support the women to be raped?.But, you have to
think ,if Islamic law is cruel, of course it will make the use of cawat
besi as COMPULSORY, but no, you need to make a choice.But for better
protection, the use of cawat is acceptable. About the law, I have asked
you to read the book, therefore, please have a read and clear your mind
regarding this.

Copy the Code

If your religion is a true religion of GOD and MUslims feared Allah why then are tee rapes in Musims countries and why do you need cawat besi? Whcih means, Muslims thenselves are not afraid of the punishment on judgement day but kepp on talking about it only. Why are there still crimes in Islamic countries? Even with the syariah laws these crimes are happening and yet you talk as though if all converted to Islam the world would be crime free. That is pure hyprocracy to me.

Yes, it is your turn!.You have asked me about the Islamic law regarding
this, and now I want to know what your religion says about this.
And, Im really curious, why you are so worry with Islamic laws.The laws
are not applied on you, then why should you mess your old brain with
them?.If you want to think that they are old laws, then keep on
thinking like that!.Because the laws have nothing to do with you.You
are very annoying!!.

Copy the Code

Why do you need to know what our scriptures sactioned for rapist or proof of rape? Hindus are not in any way eager like Muslims who are in a hurry to implement Islamic laws in the whole country. We are satisfied with the secular laws as it is. It is Muslims who think the syariah laws are divine and should be implemented but I do not see any divine aspiration in them except what has been written by bigots of Islam in the 8th and 9th century.

But when I read the Vedas, there are verses show that women are not special in Hinduism.For example:
"Indra himself hath said, The mind of woman brooks not discipline,Her
intellect hath little weight."(Rig Veda book number 8/Indra 33/verse 17)
"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - (Rig Veda book 10/95/verse 15.
Look at The Holy Quran.Women are so special.In fact there is a Surah named Surah An-Nisa' (the 4th Surah), dedicated for women!.

Copy the Code

Yes, that is what Mohammed has assimilated into his Quran. Many such verses from the vedic religion and the Jewish faith makes up the Quran and that is why I say it is man made. I'm never wrong in it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
My dear fellow please go back to the history of Abraham. He did nothave two wives but only one and hagar was a maid in waiting. She was aslave woman who waited on Sarah. Since Sarah could not conceive due toold age she allowed Abraham to consumate with Hagar and she bore achild for him but later GOD blessed Sarah and she became pregnant andthat was when Abraham decided to sent away Hagar and her son into thedesert to fend for themsleves. You have to study the history on "TheFamily of Abraham"

My answer:
On that time, slave is 'halal' to be sleep with because there is no lawsaying that is wrong.Like I said before, the law just came with Moseswhich I have revealed to you in the book of Leviticus.In Islamic viewHagar was his wife.What you have followed is in the Christian view.Butthe story of where Abraham brought the son and Hagar to the desert, isthe starting point of the establishment of Kaaba.Yes, the Bible didn'tsay that because the confirmation is in the last book, The HolyQuran.You have to study the Holy Quran in order to know that Quran isfulfilling the prophecies and the stories in the Holy Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)
It is a problem because you use the Arabic term Allah to say it has noGender but YHWH has gender and it is male. So the Jewish GOD cannot beAllah.

My answer:
You see...if you open the Hebrew Bible, you will see the God called as Elohim. For example in the Genesis chapter 1 verse 1:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. "(Genesis 1:verse 1)

In Hebrew, the word God is ELOHIM.

ELOH /ELAH stands for God and IM (is Plural of Respect) for God.

So, God was called ELAH...ELAH...ELAH...same likeAllah...Allah...Allah...even though in the Judaism, God has gender, butstill it referred to the same God.The way the believe in God isdifferent,but it referred to SAME GOD and the God name is ELOHIM.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
No, it is not but may be it is in a bible created by Muslims.

My answer:
Obviously you are not reading the book of Genesis, so better keepquiet, or else you are just revealing that you are not doing yourhomework in claiming something.

"Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this handmaid and her son.For the son of this handmaid shall not be heir with my son, even withIsaac."(Genesis 21:10)

See how jealous she was!!.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
I have said before and I say it now Abraham did not built the kaaba butmay he built a podok for Hagar and her son and that pondok was used bythe Meccans for the pagan religion centuries later. To rememebr thatnow Muslims have sekolah pondok. That figures very well and afterMohamemd founded Islam he rebuild it inot a kaaba. See, it only needsfiguring out and the truth will be revealed

My answer:
Show to me in the Bible saying that Abraham built a pondok for hiswife(Islamic view)/slave (Christian view). Muhammad didn't built theKAABA, The Kaaba existed long before the Christian and Judaism.So, thetruth has been revealed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)
Sure such verses could be written and is no big deal.

My answer:
It shows that Quran already knew (by Allah permission) that people likethat(accuse Muhammad wrote Poems in the Quran) will exist.ThereforeAllah sent the verse to answer the pointless claim.I repeat,

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is
no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:"(Surah Yaasiin 36:69)

"That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that thecharge may be proved against those who reject (Truth)."(Surah Yaasiin36:70)

barney50 · Post time 15-4-2007 03:35 PM

Reply #225 eastrun's post

:
The law is by wearing the cawat besi. As we all know the prevention is
better than cure.There is law about for those who have been raped in
Islam, but if I show to you, surely you won't believe it and will say
it is created. So, I suggest you to read this book : Women status in
criminal laws of Islam- distributed by Yayasan Dakwah Islamiah Malaysia
(Islamic Da'wah Foundation Malaysia).The author is Paizah Haji Ismail.
Have a read.

Copy the Code

So, you are afraid to show the verse? Why, is it bias that womenare not given the equal opportunity as men? You spoke about iyt and yetyou fail to show me here what the syariah law saya about rape. That iswhy I told you such laws are man made for their onw selfish gain. The8th century Arab Muslims had ulterior motive to come up with suchsyariah laws. Such outdated laws are for barbarians and not civiliaepeople.

Because I am not able to give a brief explanation here.Because short
explanation won't make you understand.But Islam is there to protect
those who have been raped.
Regarding the four witnesses method.Even though the law looks fragile
in the eyes of you, but you have to remember, the modern laws also very
fragile. Because you also can cheat the Court by hiring the best lawyer
and perfect plan.Even with brief investigation, you also can escape
yourself from being accused. So, you cannot just simply blame Islamic
law for that.
So, the best way here is by preventing. The use of cawat besi is
acceptable.BUT. it applies to the Muslims only and it is not
compulsory.So, have a read and May Allah clears your mind.

Copy the Code

Your Islam is defeated here today because your excuse in comparisonis with civil law failed because you said syariah aws are divine lawbut your failure to show the verse proves it is not. I'd suggest yougive your wife the cawat besi to proof your point instead of preachingto the public.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
It is not cruel, but it is the way to prevent the women from getting
raped.Do you meant that preventing the women from being raped is a
cruel thing?.Then, you support the women to be raped?.But, you have to
think ,if Islamic law is cruel, of course it will make the use of cawat
besi as COMPULSORY, but no, you need to make a choice.But for better
protection, the use of cawat is acceptable. About the law, I have asked
you to read the book, therefore, please have a read and clear your mind
regarding this.

Copy the Code

If your religion is a true religion of GOD and MUslims feared Allahwhy then are tee rapes in Musims countries and why do you need cawatbesi? Whcih means, Muslims thenselves are not afraid of the punishmenton judgement day but kepp on talking about it only. Why are there stillcrimes in Islamic countries? Even with the syariah laws these crimesare happening and yet you talk as though if all converted to Islam theworld would be crime free. That is pure hyprocracy to me.

Yes, it is your turn!.You have asked me about the Islamic law regarding
this, and now I want to know what your religion says about this.
And, Im really curious, why you are so worry with Islamic laws.The laws
are not applied on you, then why should you mess your old brain with
them?.If you want to think that they are old laws, then keep on
thinking like that!.Because the laws have nothing to do with you.You
are very annoying!!.

Copy the Code

Why do you need to know what our scriptures sactioned for rapist orproof of rape? Hindus are not in any way eager like Muslims who are ina hurry to implement Islamic laws in the whole country. We aresatisfied with the secular laws as it is. It is Muslims who think thesyariah laws are divine and should be implemented but I do not see anydivine aspiration in them except what has been written by bigots ofIslam in the 8th and 9th century.

But when I read the Vedas, there are verses show that women are not special in Hinduism.For example:
"Indra himself hath said, The mind of woman brooks not discipline,Her
intellect hath little weight."(Rig Veda book number 8/Indra 33/verse 17)
"There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna" - (Rig Veda book 10/95/verse 15.
Look at The Holy Quran.Women are so special.In fact there is a Surah
named Surah An-Nisa' (the 4th Surah), dedicated for women!.

Copy the Code

Yes, that is what Mohammed has assimilated into his Quran. Manysuch verses from the vedic religion and the Jewish faith makes up theQuran and that is why I say it is man made. I'm never wrong in it. Hereis some of them from the Qurn:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

According to the above if we look at it, women who are independant and working wives are sinners who would burn in hell.

012.109
YUSUFALI: Nor did We send before thee (as messengers) any but men, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?

So, Islam believes women cannot be mesangers? Or is Allah so stupidthat he did not realize that women can doo better in men's world. Howcould GOD of Islam know all this in the 7th century because the 7thcentury women in Islam were living in bondage and that was created byAllah.

barney50 · Post time 15-4-2007 03:36 PM

sambungan:

Volume    1, Book 6, Number 301:
   Narrated    Abu Said Al-Khudri:
   Once    Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha    or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women!    Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire    were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle    ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your    husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and    religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of    you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in    our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of    two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the    affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence.    Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her    menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is    the deficiency in her religion."

Need I continue further how Islam looks at women?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
On that time, slave is 'halal' to be sleep with because there is no law
saying that is wrong.Like I said before, the law just came with Moses
which I have revealed to you in the book of Leviticus.In Islamic view
Hagar was his wife.What you have followed is in the Christian view.But
the story of where Abraham brought the son and Hagar to the desert, is
the starting point of the establishment of Kaaba.Yes, the Bible didn't
say that because the confirmation is in the last book, The Holy
Quran.You have to study the Holy Quran in order to know that Quran is
fulfilling the prophecies and the stories in the Holy Bible.

Copy the Code

Which came first the OT and NT or the Quran? I reserve my comment
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
You see...if you open the Hebrew Bible, you will see the God called as Elohim. For example in the Genesis chapter 1 verse 1:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. "(Genesis 1:verse 1)

Copy the Code

That is ok but they did not say Allah. They call him Elohim which has no bearings to Muslims calling Allah for GOD.

In Hebrew, the word God is ELOHIM.
ELOH /ELAH stands for God and IM (is Plural of Respect) for God.
So, God was called ELAH...ELAH...ELAH...same like
Allah...Allah...Allah...even though in the Judaism, God has gender, but
still it referred to the same God.The way the believe in God is
different,but it referred to SAME GOD and the God name is ELOHIM.

Copy the Code

That is your calim and not from the Jews. They do not believe GODthe why Musslims believe. So, it makes alot of difference as it wasMUslims who are trying to calim them as one. Mohammed failed in his aimand so harping over it d not have any added value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Obviously you are not reading the book of Genesis, so better keep
quiet, or else you are just revealing that you are not doing your
homework in claiming something.
"Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this handmaid and her son.
For the son of this handmaid shall not be heir with my son, even with
Isaac."(Genesis 21:10)
See how jealous she was!!.

Copy the Code

Jealous? Hagar was a maid in waiting and she being a slave cannotdream of becoming the masters wife. Even to this very day maids arealways trying their best to become the masters wife in order to becomecitizen of this country. It was so then too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Show to me in the Bible saying that Abraham built a pondok for his
wife(Islamic view)/slave (Christian view). Muhammad didn't built the
KAABA, The Kaaba existed long before the Christian and Judaism.So, the
truth has been revealed.

Copy the Code

If it was not written does not mean it did not happen. Such smallthings would not be highlighted but if you weigh the situation that iswhat you have to deduce. Otherwise a prophet and friend of GOD wqouldnot just leave his maid and son in the open desert to die. Surely hewould have given enough supply of food anf built a pondok for them todwell in. That is how you have to look at it. Otherwise Abraham wouldlook like a cruel prophet. Was Abrahman a cruel prophet? No furthercomment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
It shows that Quran already knew (by Allah permission) that people like
that(accuse Muhammad wrote Poems in the Quran) will exist.Therefore
Allah sent the verse to answer the pointless claim.I repeat,
"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is
no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:"(Surah Yaasiin 36:69)
"That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the
charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth)."(Surah Yaasiin
36:70)

Copy the Code

A GOD who knew of the criticism could not do anything to reverse it.Are you saying Allah was so weak that although he knew of it yet couldnot do anything to avert it? Looks like Allah did not know many thingthat would happen in later years. No wonder he has such a verse. Heknew such verse is so weak that smart people would know it is not fromthe real GOD.

eastrun · Post time 16-4-2007 08:52 PM

1)
So, you are afraid to show the verse? Why, is it bias that womenare not given the equal opportunity as men? You spoke about iyt and yetyou fail to show me here what the syariah law saya about rape. That iswhy I told you such laws are man made for their onw selfish gain. The8th century Arab Muslims had ulterior motive to come up with suchsyariah laws. Such outdated laws are for barbarians and not civiliaepeople. Your Islam is defeated here today because your excuse in comparisonis with civil law failed because you said syariah aws are divine lawbut your failure to show the verse proves it is not. I'd suggest yougive your wife the cawat besi to proof your point instead of preachingto the public.

My answer:
The verse is there,but if I reveal the verse, for sure you cannot understand just like the four witnesses method revealed to you before this. That is why I asked you to read the Book, distributed by YADIM. And clarify yourself, because you won't believe even I give a brief explanation to you. In Holy Quran no verse is bias upon women.But In Vedas, does contain that kind of verses.

My religion laws defeated because the civil laws?.In the first place, I told you that the Islamic laws are only applied upon the Muslims.Then, how could you say the laws are trying to over rule the civil laws?.You are a busy body...talking and messing up your old brain with laws that have nothing to do with you.

And the wear of cawat is NOT COMPULSARY, it is a way of prevention, but up to you to follow or not.But today's cawat won't be as same as the previous one.So, please take note about that!.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) If your religion is a true religion of GOD and MUslims feared Allah why then are tee rapes in Musims countries and why do you need cawat besi? Whcih means, Muslims thenselves are not afraid of the punishmenton judgement day but kepp on talking about it only. Why are there still crimes in Islamic countries? Even with the syariah laws these crimes are happening and yet you talk as though if all converted to Islam the world would be crime free. That is pure hyprocracy to me.Why do you need to know what our scriptures sactioned for rapist orproof of rape?  Hindus are not in any way eager like Muslims who are ina hurry to implement Islamic laws in the whole country. We aresatisfied with the secular laws as it is. It is Muslims who think thesyariah laws are divine and should be implemented but I do not see anydivine aspiration in them except what has been written by bigots ofIslam in the 8th and 9th century.

My answer:
Before this, you told me that in a religion got peoples with Thomas faith.They say they believe, but actually they are not.Every religion got that kind of people.Including Hinduism. So, those with Thomas faith against what Islam has taught. Are you thinking Muslims are angels?.Are you crazy?.We all are humans and humans are not free from wrongdoing. But Allah is Merciful, that is why He gives us time to repent ALWAYS!.But if we really follow what Islam has taught, for sure the world will be criminal free!.

You said like Hindus never committed into criminal things.Like those Hinduism are angels.You are crazy and forgot where you have came from!.

By the way, before this you PROMISED me to show how Hinduism protects the women that have been raped.So, please FULFILL your promise and stop talking rubbish!!.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Yes, that is what Mohammed has assimilated into his Quran. Manysuch verses from the vedic religion and the Jewish faith makes up theQuran and that is why I say it is man made. I'm never wrong in it. Hereis some of them from the Qurn:

004.034
   YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of    women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and    because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women    are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah    would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty    and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their    beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience,    seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great    (above you all).

According to the above if we look at it, women who are independant and working wives are sinners who would burn in hell.

012.109
   YUSUFALI: Nor did We send before thee (as messengers) any    but men, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they    not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before    them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will    ye not then understand?

So, Islam believes women cannot be mesangers? Or is Allah so stupidthat he did not realize that women can doo better in men's world. Howcould GOD of Islam know all this in the 7th century because the 7thcentury women in Islam were living in bondage and that was created byAllah.

My answer:
The verse above does praise the women.Read the verse carefully.Allah is praising the women.Please read the verse carefully. Allah just asked the husband to control the women when the women (wives) behave like some that need to be ashamed of.Why?.Because Allah loves the women too...therefore He wants them to stay in a good manner and prevent them from commit wrong doing.Is that wrong?.

The verse didn't say the women are hyena, the women are stupid like what have been stated in the Vedas.Therefore the verse above has nothing to do about what have been stated in the Vedas regarding women,therefore, the Holy Quran is not a copy of Vedas.

"Husbands are not supposed to have intercourse with a wife who bore only daughters."[Hindu Law and Custom, p.145]

"A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions." [Manu VIII.416-417]

Is this what you called a fair/ justful religion upon women?

Read in the Holy Quran, in Surah An-Nisa and Surah Al-Baqarah...and you will see how Islam protects the property of the women!!!.

Why the prophets are among men?.Did Allah said that the women cannot be a prophet?The verse above told that all the messengers are men. Is that a problem?Isn't that true?.Adam is a man, Noah is a man, Jesus is a man, Moses is a man, Abraham is a man, Muhammad is man..Can't you see?.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4)
Need I continue further how Islam looks at women?

My answer:
Have a look in the Holy Quran..esspecially in Surah Al-Baqarah and An-Nisa...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
Which came first the OT and NT or the Quran? I reserve my comment

My answer:
The OT came first, then the NT and the final one is the Holy Quran.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
That is ok but they did not say Allah. They call him Elohim which has no bearings to Muslims calling Allah for GOD. That is your calim and not from the Jews. They do not believe GODthe why Musslims believe. So, it makes alot of difference as it wasMUslims who are trying to calim them as one. Mohammed failed in his aimand so harping over it d not have any added value

My answer:
How many time do I need to explain?. It referred to same God, but the God is called in different name in different religion.Why are you making name of God as a problem..And,,,before this I have asked you to open the Arabic, the Malay and the Indonesia Bible, because the word Allah is in there?.Have you opened and have a look...Of course NO,because you are to worry and just cannot accept that the God called Allah.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Last edited by  eastrun at 16-4-2007 09:09 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 16-4-2007 09:06 PM

7)
Jealous? Hagar was a maid in waiting and she being a slave cannotdream of becoming the masters wife. Even to this very day maids arealways trying their best to become the masters wife in order to becomecitizen of this country. It was so then too. If it was not written does not mean it did not happen. Such smallthings would not be highlighted but if you weigh the situation that iswhat you have to deduce. Otherwise a prophet and friend of GOD wqouldnot just leave his maid and son in the open desert to die. Surely hewould have given enough supply of food anf built a pondok for them todwell in. That is how you have to look at it. Otherwise Abraham wouldlook like a cruel prophet. Was Abrahman a cruel prophet? No furthercomment.

My answer:
Yes, Sarah was jealous with Hagar and that's why Abraham brought Hagar and Ismail to the dessert and the story stopped there, because the continuation is in the Holy Quran.

In Islamic view, when Abraham left Hagar and his son in the desert, Hagar run between mount safa and Marwah to search for water to give to his son. And because he (Ismail) was too thirsty, he shivered and unintentionally he kicked the land and when the land broke, Zam-Zam water rushed out!.

By that water, Hagar and Ismail were able to stay alive and build a new life. And at the same time,Abraham and Ismail built the Kaabah.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8)
A GOD who knew of the criticism could not do anything to reverse it.Are you saying Allah was so weak that although he knew of it yet couldnot do anything to avert it? Looks like Allah did not know many thingthat would happen in later years. No wonder he has such a verse. Heknew such verse is so weak that smart people would know it is not fromthe real GOD.

My answer:
He will only reverse it when you want to reverse yourself first!.And this one, I have discussed with you before this. The verse is a warning for Muhammad and every person on earth that the persons will exist.And for those who already behave like that and when they read the verse and they know that behaving like that is an evil, so they have to repent and start to behave better.Hope you understand.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 16-4-2007 09:10 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 17-4-2007 11:30 AM

Reply #229 eastrun's post

by eastrun:
The verse is there,but if I reveal the verse, for sure you cannot
understand just like the four witnesses method revealed to you before
this. That is why I asked you to read the Book, distributed by YADIM.
And clarify yourself, because you won't believe even I give a brief
explanation to you. In Holy Quran no verse is bias upon women.But In
Vedas, does contain that kind of verses.

Copy the Code

I do not want any YADIM or YADAM. Just show me the verse from the Quran. Because you believe Quran is the word of Allah the GOD of Islam. So, stop being evasive and proof your point otherwise you are aliar and Quran is a myth. That is the conclusion I have to make if you do not give me the verse relating to rape.

My religion laws defeated because the civil laws?.In the first
place, I told you that the Islamic laws are only applied upon the
Muslims.Then, how could you say the laws are trying to over rule the
civil laws?.You are a busy body...talking and messing up your old brain
with laws that have nothing to do with you.

Copy the Code

Hello! My dear ignorant friend did you not know what the president of PAS had once said? If all Malaysians give a chance to PAS to rule Malaysia they would understand how Islamic laws work. What is the motiff and idea of Nik Aziz? He wants to implement Islamic laws so that non Muslims too would accept it. That is why I'm a busy body wanting to know what your Quran says in relating to rape cases. Please next time do not ask me stupid question again. We are all Malaysians and one state in Malaysia is ruled by an Islamic party and that is the concern of all citizens irrespective of religion or race.

And the wear of cawat is NOT COMPULSARY, it is
a way of prevention, but up to you to follow or not.But today's cawat
won't be as same as the previous one.So, please take note about that!.

Copy the Code

Cawat or no cawat it is medieval and used by barbarian women for fear of being raped by enemies. Are you are barbarian?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
Before this, you told me that in a religion got
peoples with Thomas faith.They say they believe, but actually they are
not.Every religion got that kind of people.Including Hinduism. So,
those with Thomas faith against what Islam has taught. Are you thinking
Muslims are angels?.Are you crazy?.We all are humans and humans are not
free from wrongdoing. But Allah is Merciful, that is why He gives us
time to repent ALWAYS!.But if we really follow what Islam has taught,
for sure the world will be criminal free!.

Copy the Code

My dear child, that is a dream of all religious entity. "IF" is a limitless word. It also can be applied for Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism and Jainism too. So, what makes Islam so special that these religions do not have?

You said like Hindus never committed into criminal things.Like those
Hinduism are angels.You are crazy and forgot where you have came from!.
By the way, before this you PROMISED me to show how Hinduism
protects the women that have been raped.So, please FULFILL your promise
and stop talking rubbish!!.

Copy the Code

Show me where is my promise? Are you making this statement to defend Islam's weakness? Even if I had said the question of rape laws in Islam was posed by me first. So, it is you who have to show me what the Quran says instead of reversing the question to me. You are a cunning Muslim who is trying to escape from the real issue at hand. Is this how you defend your religion? If you think you are so smart then you must be able to answer otherwise just shut your gap and crawl inot a hole. I see a fearful Muslim who is caught in his own trap.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by eastrun:
The verse above does praise the women.Read the verse carefully.Allah
is praising the women.Please read the verse carefully. Allah just asked
the husband to control the women when the women (wives) behave like
some that need to be ashamed of.Why?.Because Allah loves the women
too...therefore He wants them to stay in a good manner and prevent them
from commit wrong doing.Is that wrong?.

Copy the Code

What about men? Are they angels that they do not need such advice? Man deceive women in most cases and cheating the wife is the norm in Islamic families. Have you not heard that? What does you Quran says about that? Or is your Quran only made for MCP's?

The verse didn't say the women are hyena, the women are stupid like
what have been stated in the Vedas.Therefore the verse above has
nothing to do about what have been stated in the Vedas regarding
women,therefore, the Holy Quran is not a copy of Vedas.
"Husbands are not supposed to have intercourse with a wife who bore only daughters."[Hindu Law and Custom, p.145]

Copy the Code

Is that your understand of Hinduism? Showing how stupid a Muslim can be? There is no Hindu law in India and there is no such thing as Hindu law so your claim is baseless. We have Vedic laws and are quoted according to verse and Vol and not by page. This proves that your source if from anti-Hindus and you become a laughing stock.

"
A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared
to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him
to whom they belong. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of
(his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his
master may take his possessions." [Manu VIII.416-417]
Is this what you called a fair/ justful religion upon women?

Copy the Code

Why stop short? I can give you more anti Hindu websites with doctrated texts:

[size=-1]www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.htm
http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/3365.shtml

Do you see in India women kept as prisoners at home? Do you see women in India being covered all over and kept as slaves by their husbands? But all these you can see in Islamic countries and you come here to talk about something that does not exist. If you want to lie you must learn to be good liar so go to the Mullas and learn how to lie to non Muslims.

Read in the Holy Quran, in Surah An-Nisa and Surah Al-Baqarah...and
you will see how Islam protects the property of the women!!!.
Why the prophets are among men?.Did Allah said that the women cannot
be a prophet?The verse above told that all the messengers are men. Is
that a problem?Isn't that true?.Adam is a man, Noah is a man, Jesus is
a man, Moses is a man, Abraham is a man, Muhammad is man..Can't you
see?.

Copy the Code

Is that an excuse for the above verse? If that is word of GOD I'd say Malaysia is owned by Robert Kok.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Have a look in the Holy Quran..esspecially in Surah Al-Baqarah and An-Nisa...

Copy the Code

They were all written by men of the 7th century and has no value now
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
The OT came first, then the NT and the final one is the Holy Quran.

Copy the Code

No comment.

:
How many time do I need to explain?. It referred to same God, but
the God is called in different name in different religion.Why are you
making name of God as a problem..And,,,before this I have asked you to
open the Arabic, the Malay and the Indonesia Bible, because the word
Allah is in there?.Have you opened and have a look...Of course
NO,because you are to worry and just cannot accept that the God called
Allah.

Copy the Code

The Malay word for GOD is Tuhan and so is in Indonesia. Allah is an arabic word and name of the Arab GOD. So it makes al lot of difference.

eastrun · Post time 17-4-2007 08:42 PM

1)
I do not want any YADIM or YADAM. Just show me the verse from the Quran. Because you believe Quran is the word of Allah the GOD of Islam. So, stop being evasive and proof your point otherwise you are aliar and Quran is a myth. That is the conclusion I have to make if you do not give me the verse relating to rape. Hello! My dear ignorant friend did you not know what the president of PAS had once said? If all Malaysians give a chance to PAS to rule Malaysia they would understand how Islamic laws work. What is the motiff and idea of Nik Aziz? He wants to implement Islamic laws so that non Muslims too would accept it. That is why I'm a busy body wanting to know what your Quran says in relating to rape cases. Please next time do not ask me stupid question again. We are all Malaysians and one state in Malaysia is ruled by an Islamic party and that is the concern of all citizens irrespective of religion or race.Cawat or no cawat it is medieval and used by barbarian women for fear of being raped by enemies. Are you are barbarian?

My answer:
I am no liar. That is why I asked you to read the book.Where the book explains briefly about the Islamic law against rogol together with verses from the Holy Quran.Which I think that can make you understand better.But if you refuse to read the book, then I cannot do anything and don't blame others when you don't understand..

Islam also provide information more on prevention. For example:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

(Surah An-Nur 24:30~31)

Prevention is better than cure, because when the rogol, any laws find difficulty to proof whether the woman has been raped or not or the man has raped the woman or not.

My suggestion, read the book.

That is what Nik Aziz said, but Muhammad never said wearing the CAWAT BESI is COMPULSORY.So it is up to you want to wear or not.If you think it is not suitable, then don't wear, if you want better protection then, wear la.It doesn't make you as a babarian because it wasn't forced to wear that thing

Why are you so stupid?.Even Nik Aziz said he wants to implement the Islamic laws, but he never said that he will apply the laws UPON NON MUSLIMS TOO.That is why I curious, why you are so busy body with the laws that have nothing to do with you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
My dear child, that is a dream of all religious entity. "IF" is a limitless word. It also can be applied for Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism and Jainism too. So, what makes Islam so special that these religions do not have? Show me where is my promise? Are you making this statement to defend Islam's weakness? Even if I had said the question of rape laws in Islam was posed by me first. So, it is you who have to show me what the Quran says instead of reversing the question to me. You are a cunning Muslim who is trying to escape from the real issue at hand. Is this how you defend your religion? If you think you are so smart then you must be able to answer otherwise just shut your gap and crawl inot a hole. I see a fearful Muslim who is caught in his own trap.

My answer:
I don't say it cannot been applied upon all religions.What I was trying to explain to you is that Islam never asked the followers to commit wrongdoings.Since you said that Muslims do not behave like Muslims,so I explained to you that Muslims behave like that because they want to behave like that.Islam never asked and taught them to behave like that.If Muslims really follow what the religion taught, for sure the Muslims will become better persons. And if the non-Muslims follow, they also will behave better.Insya Allah.The specialty of Islam is the way we praise God and not create partner besides him.We respect God and we never put Him on the same level of His creations.That is the difference of Islam.

See..you are a liar..let me quote what you have said in your reply #221:

" That is absurd. Chastity belt is a medival tradition and even in Europe it had been in use in the 17th century. We are living in morden society and you expect Muslim women to wear that? You must be another Nik Aziz the lunatic. What justful wittness? Can you please explain that? No, it is not my turn yet as you have not answered my question how syariah law act on rape report. Answer that and I'll tell you how rape cases were handled during the vedic time. But anywayHindus do not implement such laws now because India is not run by Vedic laws. So, it serves no purpose now but Islam is because many countries are under Islamic laws and the human rights commission had reported women are treated with contempt. That is why you have to answer."

Now, tell me how Hinduism handles such issue...Liar!!.I have answered in the very first post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
What about men? Are they angels that they do not need such advice? Man deceive women in most cases and cheating the wife is the norm in Islamic families. Have you not heard that? What does you Quran says about that? Or is your Quran only made for MCP's?

My answer:
Got. Allah said:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:19)

Explained.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Last edited by eastrun at 17-4-2007 09:06 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 17-4-2007 08:59 PM

4)
Do you see in India women kept as prisoners at home? Do you see women in India being covered all over and kept as slaves by their husbands? But all these you can see in Islamic countries and you come here to talk about something that does not exist. If you want to lie you must learn to be good liar so go to the Mullas and learn how to lie to non Muslims.

My answer:
I ask you back...did Islam taught to treat you wife as prisoner?.Did Islam taught to keep your wife as slave?.Of course no.If the Muslims act like that,then it is not Islam to be blamed.They need to be blamed for not following what the religion had taught..Allah said:

"Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf."(Surah At-Talaaq 65:6)

Even when you have divorced with your wife, you cannot simply ignore them,especially when she is pregnant.

Be soft with your wife:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:19)

And regarding the property:

"To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:33)

"Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise."(Surah An-Nisa 4:11)

Women got their share in the property.

You see how Islam has put women on the level that full of respect.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
Is that an excuse for the above verse? If that is word of GOD I'd say Malaysia is owned by Robert Kok. They were all written by men of the 7th century and has no value now.The Malay word for GOD is Tuhan and so is in Indonesia. Allah is an arabic word and name of the Arab GOD. So it makes al lot of difference.

My answer:
It is not excuse but it is truth.Allah sent all messengers from men.Therefore, Quran is not wrong about that.I have revealed some of the verses in the Holy Quran that have put women on the level that full of respect.

Yes, the Malay word for God is Tuhan and the name of the God is Allah, the Indonesian Christians/Muslims call the God as Allah too.So name doesn't matter because it refers to same God.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
[size=-1]www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.htm
http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/3365.shtml

My answer:
Is this a fake website created by you?.It cannot be opened.Whatever it is, the unjustful laws upon women are in the Vedas, You cannot erase the laws even you want to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Last edited by eastrun at 17-4-2007 09:03 PM ]

authentic16 · Post time 17-4-2007 09:05 PM

Oh yah,
wearing 'cawat besi' is medieval... very cruel, out of this world..but we change it to look modern,haha.. so any other better way to stop rape? sometimes, a radical method is needed..
i am very young, and i am very surprise to see people trying to prove other people wrong rather than trying to explain and educate other people regarding their believes.. the best thing about adults are, they don't listen. I thought budak kecik 'keras kepala' and 'bodoh tak boleh diajar', seems adults are worse.
i wonder, how can we live in piece if adults these days likes to create problem rather trying to understand...
very stupid post coming from a very young fellow uh?

salam

barney50 · Post time 18-4-2007 08:03 AM

In reply to authentic16

Oh yah,
wearing 'cawat besi' is medieval... very cruel, out of this
world..but we change it to look modern,haha.. so any other better way
to stop rape? sometimes, a radical method is needed..
i am very young, and i am very surprise to see people trying to prove
other people wrong rather than trying to explain and educate other
people regarding their believes.. the best thing about adults are, they
don't listen. I thought budak kecik 'keras kepala' and 'bodoh tak boleh
diajar', seems adults are worse.
i wonder, how can we live in piece if adults these days likes to create problem rather trying to understand...
very stupid post coming from a very young fellow uh?

Copy the Code

Not so funny and nothing to be proud. If Muslims claim Islam is the true religion of GOD and Muslims after reading the Quran would become steadfast in their belief in Allah because they start from a very tender age why then are there rape cases on the rise among Mulsims? Don't worry about non Muslims because Muslims claim non Muslim religions are all crap and full of myths so let us deal with Islam alone. Tell me why there are more rape cases among the Muslims? Is it because the teachings are inadequate or may child had to be though from the womb? Any good reasons that you have to enlightent the adults?

authentic16 · Post time 18-4-2007 01:03 PM

really?? many rape cases done by muslims?? oh yah, i forgot, we are in malaysia, many rape cases are by muslims..so is there any difference in the U.S or any part of the world where other followers also involve in rape? i am on this earth not as long as some of you here, but what i see is simple, people are the problem, not the religion. i mean, with my weak analogy, i am not that smart. 2 family, the purpose is the same, to have good life and good kid, family A has no clear rule of conduct on how their children could behave because everything is base on logic(well, we believe in you my child, u can go out but take care of yourelf) family B has rule of conduct that is very strict(curfew at 10, if you don't you will get smack).which family will produce better child? the probability of both family to produce a bad child is there, but the probability of family B is less.
That's what religion do, try to solve problem but at the end, we human is responsible on our act.
Take example like in Malaysia, our IPTA has very freaking streak rules, student can't join politics la, can't have riots la and other stuff to protect the student themselves. IPTs in overseas such as US, rules are minimal, students can have riots and join politics, and see what happens? vandalisme occurs, free sex, free boost, why and yah, killing spree in uni and colleges? coz there is no rule of conduct.
Thing is, whether you are christian, hindu, muslim, jew, everything boils down to people i, that is what i think. the religion can have a very tight rule covers every aspect of life, but can you carry or follow it completely? the answer is no. example, in christian as well it is not allowed to do with pre-marital sex, yet so many chirstians had pre marital sex, so should we blame the religion or the people? and that is the basic rule, not the tough ones that i bet a lot of people do not even bother to know and pratice. same goes to Islam, everything is already set, but boils down to people. everything in life doesn't come easy, as for Islam, doesn't not meand you are a muslim, you will go straight to heaven, because everything goes back to your 'deed' and whether you follow the teachings.
then comes the argument that GOD should be fair, GOD should not burden us with all these troubles of religion if he is really the MOST COMMPASIONATE. if there is no troubles of religion, how do you expect us human to know who is GOD. we know that humans are people who easily forgets, and religion remind us not to forget, religion reminds us that we are not the superior.

that is why GOD is merciful, he forgives if you repent.

barney50 · Post time 18-4-2007 04:18 PM

Reply #232 eastrun's post

:
I am no liar. That is why I asked you to read the book.Where the book explains briefly about the Islamic law against rogol together with verses from the Holy Quran.Which I think that can make you understand better.But if you refuse to read the book, then I cannot do anything and don't blame others when you don't understand..

Copy the Code

Looks like you are having difficulties in tracing the verse or may you are ashame to show me the verse be use the syariah law has no protection for women. Here is an example of such:

A few cases will disturbingly illustrate the concern. In 1982, fifteen-year-old Jehan Mina became pregnant as a result of a reported rape. Lacking the testimony of four eye-witnesses that the intercourse was in fact rape, Jehan was convicted of zina on the evidence of her illegitimate pregnancy (Mina v. State, 1983 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct 183). Her child was born in prison (Mehdi 1990, 25). Later, a similar case caused public outcry and drew public attention to the new law. In 1985, Safia Bibi, a sixteen-year-old nearly blind domestic servant reported that she was repeatedly raped by her landlord/employer and his son, and became pregnant as a result. When she charged the men with rape, the case was dismissed for lack of evidence, as she was the only witness against them. Safia, however, being unmarried and pregnant, was charged with zina and convicted on this evidence (Bibi v. State, 1985 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct. 120).5

What I can gather from the above is a woman or a girl must bring along four wittness when she is bing raped. Sounds the most ridicules and moronic law on the part of Islam. Secondly have such Islam law it gives full indirect authority for males to rape any woman of their choice because the victim cannot produce four wittnesses. Deep in your hurt do feel these laws were really given to Mohammed by your so called Allah?

Islam also provide information more on prevention. For example:
(Surah An-Nur 24:30~31)
Prevention is better than cure, because when the rogol, any laws find difficulty to proof whether the woman has been raped or not or the man has raped the woman or not.

Copy the Code

You are wrong, the secular laws have convited many rapist in the past as well as the present. It is more towards protecting women then your Islamic laws. Study the secular law instead of talking crap. Islamic laws were formulated by Mullas with no experience in law in their life. They were bias and against the freedom of women so they made sure women in Islam becomes the losers if they report against Muslims men. Syaria laws are prejudice against women and you or any Musims cannot deny that.

My suggestion, read the book.
That is what Nik Aziz said, but Muhammad never said wearing the CAWAT BESI is COMPULSORY.So it is up to you want to wear or not.If you think it is not suitable, then don't wear, if you want better protection then, wear la.It doesn't make you as a babarian because it wasn't forced to wear that thing
Why are you so stupid?.Even Nik Aziz said he wants to implement the Islamic laws, but he never said that he will apply the laws UPON NON MUSLIMS TOO.That is why I curious, why you are so busy body with the laws that have nothing to do with you.

Copy the Code

I think you are the one being so stupid and stuborn. Read the political speeches and campaign of Nik Aziz before you make fool of youself here. He had clearly appealed to Malaysians of all races to vote for PAS and give it a chance to rule Malaysia under Islamic rule. What does that mean?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
I don't say it cannot been applied upon all religions.What I was trying to explain to you is that Islam never asked the followers to commit wrongdoings.Since you said that Muslims do not behave like Muslims,so I explained to you that Muslims behave like that because they want to behave like that.Islam never asked and taught them to behave like that.If Muslims really follow what the religion taught, for sure the Muslims will become better persons. And if the non-Muslims follow, they also will behave better.Insya Allah.The specialty of Islam is the way we praise God and not create partner besides him.We respect God and we never put Him on the same level of His creations.That is the difference of Islam.

Copy the Code

No, you were trying to say only Islam can be fare while all other religions are useless as Islam had come to reaffirm, re correct and give new laws. Is that not your word? Your had ulterior motives when you said that which means all other religions are useless and outdated. Now you turn and twist the fact. It show Musims can lie any time to reverse their comments when it suits them. It goes without saying even Hindus, Christians, Buddhist to can become better person if they all follow the true teachings of their respective scriptures. Islam is no exception on that matter. There is no speciality is Islam buyt only Muslims think as such. There are specialities in all religions which you fail to see because you turn a blind eye concerning other beliefs. The difference is we respect, love and show our appreciation to GOD while Muslims fear Allah and would kill others to satisfy Allah's ego.

See..you are a liar..let me quote what you have said in your reply #221:
" That is absurd. Chastity belt is a medival tradition and even in Europe it had been in use in the 17th century. We are living in morden society and you expect Muslim women to wear that? You must be another Nik Aziz the lunatic. What justful wittness? Can you please explain that? No, it is not my turn yet as you have not answered my question how syariah law act on rape report. Answer that and I'll tell you how rape cases were handled during the vedic time. But anywayHindus do not implement such laws now because India is not run by Vedic laws. So, it serves no purpose now but Islam is because many countries are under Islamic laws and the human rights commission had reported women are treated with contempt. That is why you have to answer."
Now, tell me how Hinduism handles such issue...Liar!!.I have answered in the very first post.

Copy the Code

Oh! For telling the truth and exposing Islamic gimmic , I am a liar? Well so be it. As fara as I can see and have read Islam and Muslims motiff, I know their agenda very well. They want show the worl;d that only Islam is a true relgion while others are all myth. It obvious from the view point of your reply and remarks. You had never for once said all religion must live upt to its teaching of human development and understand on unity in divercity. So, it is you who is the biggest liar here who pretends to be a innocent victim of Islam bashing. Shows you stupidity and imaturity.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Got. Allah said:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:19)
Explained.

Copy the Code

Explained what? See what happens to minorities when they live in Islamic countries under Islam law.

Kidnap Hindu, Force Marriage to Muslim
January 04, 2007 12:00 PM EST

Sanao Menghwar has had three of his daughters kidnapped, then forced to marry Muslim men. That means that the young women were coerced into becoming Islamics.

This happens daily, particularly in the Pakistani Sindh province, according to Hasan Mansoor, reporter, Midday.com.

Other Hindus in the province worry when their daughters will disappear. Therefore, there are entire Hindu families leaving Pakistan for Canada, India or other nations.Menghewar and his wife left their house on errands. When they returned to their residence, their daughters were missing. They reported the missing young women to the police department, filing the necessary papers. Neighbors helped them on a search party to locate the daughters, but to no avail.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/21634.html

[ Last edited by barney50 at 18-4-2007 04:22 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 18-4-2007 04:30 PM

Reply #233 eastrun's post

:
I ask you back...did Islam taught to treat you wife as prisoner?.Did Islam taught to keep your wife as slave?.Of course no.If the Muslims act like that,then it is not Islam to be blamed.They need to be blamed for not following what the religion had taught..Allah said:
"Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf."(Surah At-Talaaq 65:6)
Even when you have divorced with your wife, you cannot simply ignore them,especially when she is pregnant.
Be soft with your wife:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:19)
And regarding the property:
"To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:33)
"Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise."(Surah An-Nisa 4:11)
Women got their share in the property.
You see how Islam has put women on the level that full of respect.

Copy the Code

That is bunch of pure lies. See how Saudi Muslims women are treated:

So, how my sisters live in this society?

As Saudi women, my sisters go through extraordinary suffering. They have no right whatsoever to manage their lives by themselves. They are totally dependent on my father, on me and their other brothers. They cannot go anywhere alone, by themselves. Whenever anyone of them ventures outside, some men (brother or father) must accompany her as her protector and minder. They cannot even go out for such events like accident, hospital emergency, etc. Believe me, when they need to go to a hospital, they have to call my brother to take them there. He has to come from anther city, 300km afar. Because they cannot drive (women in Saudi Arabia are banned from driving cars) and my father cannot drive, (not allowed for them to go with non mahram), my sisters have no choice but to undergo such unspeakable ordeal of agony. No matter how mush urgent and emergency, they must wait for their mahram (in this case, their brother) to take them to hospital. There is no way out for them. Since my father does not know how to use an ATM, when any of my sisters wants to withdraw money from ATM, she must handover her card to a stranger (a man) to withdraw money for her. When my sisters want to do regular marketing, they must hand over the money to a stranger and he will charge whatever price he wishes. These are just a few examples of the plights Saudi women go through in their daily lives.

http://www.islam-watch.org/KhaledWaleed/SaudiWomenStory.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
It is not excuse but it is truth.Allah sent all messengers from men.Therefore, Quran is not wrong about that.I have revealed some of the verses in the Holy Quran that have put women on the level that full of respect.
Yes, the Malay word for God is Tuhan and the name of the God is Allah, the Indonesian Christians/Muslims call the God as Allah too.So name doesn't matter because it refers to same God.

Copy the Code

To this very day no Muslim scholar had ever debated with a Jew to confirm that Allah is YHWH. May I ask you why they had no done so? Why is there open debate with Christians or Jews as regards to their believe and yours? That is because Muslims are afraid that they would not be able to answer questions put forth by them. Even in this country Muslims do not want a interreligious forum to be held. What are they really afraid of? Beats me!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Is this a fake website created by you?.It cannot be opened.Whatever it is, the unjustful laws upon women are in the Vedas, You cannot erase the laws even you want to.

Copy the Code

I aske you a question you cannot answer me and here you go rattling. No Hindus are ruled by Vedic laws in India so what is the fuss about? But Muslims are ruled by Islamic laws and that is the problem here.

Women and Islam

by Mohammad Asghar

19 December, 2005

Islam's stand on woman is a highly contentious issue. It is more so for those people who are not Muslims. They often want to know what rights and privileges Islam has granted to woman, a question that arises out of the claim that Islam is the latest and the modern religion of the world. The question becomes very important, when it is considered from the standpoint of Allah's claim. He is believed to have claimed that it is He who has established Islam and that, among all the religions of the world, Islam is the perfect one, which all humans should follow, if they want to earn His pleasure, and heaven in their next life.

But is Islam truly a perfect religion and does it require its followers to treat their women in the manner all humans are supposed to be treated? We need to examine the teachings of Islam to answer these critical questions as clearly as it is possible.

Allah does not like daughters, because (1) they grow up wearing trinkets and (2) they cannot give a clear account in a dispute (43:18).

He does not like women, because they are easily susceptible to forgetfulness and to the commission of errors (2:282).

Because women are not liked by Allah, He granted men a degree of advantage over them (2:229). Because men have a degree of advantage over their women, Allah has granted the right of marriage to Muslim men (2:237). Muslim women cannot marry, it being the prerogative of their men only.

As because Muslim women have no right to marry, they also do not have the right to divorce their husbands, even in situations where they find them to be brute or impotent. Muslim women can gain their freedom from their husbands only if they are able to induce them to utter the words of divorce with some gifts or compensation (2:229).

Read about it all here:

http://www.islam-watch.org/MAsghar/WomenIslam.htm

eastrun · Post time 18-4-2007 06:56 PM

1)
Looks like you are having difficulties in tracing the verse or may you are ashame to show me the verse be use the syariah law has no protection for women. Here is an example of such:

A few cases will disturbingly illustrate the concern. In 1982, fifteen-year-old Jehan Mina became pregnant as a result of a reported rape. Lacking the testimony of four eye-witnesses that the intercourse was in fact rape, Jehan was convicted of zina on the evidence of her illegitimate pregnancy (Mina v. State, 1983 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct 183). Her child was born in prison (Mehdi 1990, 25). Later, a similar case caused public outcry and drew public attention to the new law. In 1985, Safia Bibi, a sixteen-year-old nearly blind domestic servant reported that she was repeatedly raped by her landlord/employer and his son, and became pregnant as a result. When she charged the men with rape, the case was dismissed for lack of evidence, as she was the only witness against them. Safia, however, being unmarried and pregnant, was charged with zina and convicted on this evidence (Bibi v. State, 1985 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct. 120).5

What I can gather from the above is a woman or a girl must bring along four wittness when she is bing raped. Sounds the most ridicules and moronic law on the part of Islam. Secondly have such Islam law it gives full indirect authority for males to rape any woman of their choice because the victim cannot produce four wittnesses. Deep in your hurt do feel these laws were really given to Mohammed by your so called Allah?

You are wrong, the secular laws have convited many rapist in the past as well as the present. It is more towards protecting women then your Islamic laws. Study the secular law instead of talking crap. Islamic laws were formulated by Mullas with no experience in law in their life. They were bias and against the freedom of women so they made sure women in Islam becomes the losers if they report against Muslims men. Syaria laws are prejudice against women and you or any Musims cannot deny that.

My answer:
Looks like you are being stubborn to read the book and now looks like you don't understand.Please read the book I have suggested to you, so that you can understand better because the book can explain better to you.

Can you proof to me the originality of the articles you have quoted above?.You can see how those people that don't understand the four witnesses method,twisting the method and create such stories.

In any laws, without strong evidences and proofs, you can be accused by the wrongdoings that you never done.Therefore,without strong evidences, no laws can protect you including the secular laws. Can you see how many cases pending which until now cannot be proved?.It is all because lack of evidence.I just cannot accept the way you think.,Furthermore I just curious why you are so busy body thinking about something that have nothing to do with you.

And before you talk about Islamic laws against women, why don't you open your Vedas and see how your scriptures put the women on the level that cannot be acceptable.Like they never existed in the world.

If Islamic laws is prejudice upon women, surely man can escape from the punishment.But,no...Man also being punished when they are proved guilty with strong evidences.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
I think you are the one being so stupid and stuborn. Read the political speeches and campaign of Nik Aziz before you make fool of youself here. He had clearly appealed to Malaysians of all races to vote for PAS and give it a chance to rule Malaysia under Islamic rule. What does that mean? No, you were trying to say only Islam can be fare while all other religions are useless as Islam had come to reaffirm, re correct and give new laws. Is that not your word? Your had ulterior motives when you said that which means all other religions are useless and outdated. Now you turn and twist the fact. It show Musims can lie any time to reverse their comments when it suits them. It goes without saying even Hindus, Christians, Buddhist to can become better person if they all follow the true teachings of their respective scriptures. Islam is no exception on that matter. There is no speciality is Islam buyt only Muslims think as such. There are specialities in all religions which you fail to see because you turn a blind eye concerning other beliefs. The difference is No, you were trying to say only Islam can be fare while all other religions are useless as Islam had come to reaffirm, re correct and give new laws. Is that not your word? Your had ulterior motives when you said that which means all other religions are useless and outdated. Now you turn and twist the fact. It show Musims can lie any time to reverse their comments when it suits them. It goes without saying even Hindus, Christians, Buddhist to can become better person if they all follow the true teachings of their respective scriptures. Islam is no exception on that matter. There is no speciality is Islam buyt only Muslims think as such. There are specialities in all religions which you fail to see because you turn a blind eye concerning other beliefs. The difference is we respect, love and show our appreciation to GOD while Muslims fear Allah and would kill others to satisfy Allah's ego.

My answer:

You got him wrong. He never said that he will apply the laws upon Non-Muslims even though the party wins the election.But why are you so stupid?.

The true leader of Islam is Muhammad S.A.W.If he said that the Islamic laws are just applied upon Muslims, then it only applied upon Muslim.You just don't have worry about something that not applied upon you.

You twisted my word. I said when a new prophet comes, he will brought new laws which re-add and re-confirm the previous laws.That is why you can see the similarity of the laws between religions.I never said that the previous laws cannot make you become a better person.Because the reason new laws were sent down are to make the previous laws stronger and re-add the previous laws to make it suit the current surrounding.That is why I say to you to see why the laws are created..the reason is to make people to prevent themselves from commit wrongdoings.

When I say if the Non-Muslims follow the Holy Quran and they are able to become a better person.I am not wrong about that because the way to become a better person also in the Holy Quran.I didn't meant that the Non-Muslims need to embrace Islam for that.Because Islam never forced others to embrace the religion.And I have explained this!!.

All this while, what I can say...you are the one who is ego by saying:"we respect, love and show our appreciation to GOD while Muslims fear Allah and would kill others to satisfy Allah's ego."

Certainly you don't know Islam. Fear Him is because we RESPECT Him.Therefore, we try our best to prevent ourselves from commit wrongdoings.About killing others...this one I have asked you many times...show me in the Holy Quran where Allah said kill others,and I will love you.He never said that.But He said:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and
made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may
despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Surah Al-Huujurat 49:13)

You just cannot understand!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
Oh! For telling the truth and exposing Islamic gimmic , I am a liar? Well so be it. As fara as I can see and have read Islam and Muslims motiff, I know their agenda very well. They want show the worl;d that only Islam is a true relgion while others are all myth. It obvious from the view point of your reply and remarks. You had never for once said all religion must live upt to its teaching of human development and understand on unity in divercity. So, it is you who is the biggest liar here who pretends to be a innocent victim of Islam bashing. Shows you stupidity and imaturity.

My answer:
The reason I called you a liar is because you are promised something and yet you broke the promise.Only a liar will behave like that.All this while, no doubt you are a liar. In a thread you said you have married, but in another thread you said you are not.You have twisted your statements here and there,Are you thinking that the viewers are stupid and cannot remember what they have read?.You just make yourself become a fool.

Why you only blame Islam?.Ask any followers from any religions.Will they say that other religions are the truth religions?.For sure the followers will say that "The religion that we have belief is a true religion".Either he/she is a Christian or Jews or Buddhist or etc..He will strongly say that his/her religion is the religion and others are myth!!.

The agenda of Islam for humankind,I repeat:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and
made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may
despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Surah Al-Huujurat 49:13)

eastrun · Post time 18-4-2007 07:39 PM

4)
Explained what? See what happens to minorities when they live in Islamic countries under Islam law.

Kidnap Hindu, Force Marriage to Muslim
January 04, 2007 12:00 PM EST
Sanao Menghwar has had three of his daughters kidnapped, then forced to marry Muslim men. That means that the young women were coerced into becoming Islamics.

This happens daily, particularly in the Pakistani Sindh province, according to Hasan Mansoor, reporter, Midday.com.

Other Hindus in the province worry when their daughters will disappear. Therefore, there are entire Hindu families leaving Pakistan for Canada, India or other nations.Menghewar and his wife left their house on errands. When they returned to their residence, their daughters were missing. They reported the missing young women to the police department, filing the necessary papers. Neighbors helped them on a search party to locate the daughters, but to no avail.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/21634.html

My answer:
But I ask you...do Islam taught the followers to behave that.Study my religion and you will see that it is no force in Islam, either in embracing it or marriage.You follow a source that is not related with Islamic teaching.What Islam had taught the followers is:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."(Surah An-Nisa' 4:19)

Islam never taught us to be rough to women blindly.If the Muslims behave like that, it is nothing to do with Islam.Islam never taught to call the women as hyena.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
That is bunch of pure lies. See how Saudi Muslims women are treated:

So, how my sisters live in this society?

As Saudi women, my sisters go through extraordinary suffering. They have no right whatsoever to manage their lives by themselves. They are totally dependent on my father, on me and their other brothers. They cannot go anywhere alone, by themselves. Whenever anyone of them ventures outside, some men (brother or father) must accompany her as her protector and minder. They cannot even go out for such events like accident, hospital emergency, etc. Believe me, when they need to go to a hospital, they have to call my brother to take them there. He has to come from anther city, 300km afar. Because they cannot drive (women in Saudi Arabia are banned from driving cars) and my father cannot drive, (not allowed for them to go with non mahram), my sisters have no choice but to undergo such unspeakable ordeal of agony. No matter how mush urgent and emergency, they must wait for their mahram (in this case, their brother) to take them to hospital. There is no way out for them. Since my father does not know how to use an ATM, when any of my sisters wants to withdraw money from ATM, she must handover her card to a stranger (a man) to withdraw money for her. When my sisters want to do regular marketing, they must hand over the money to a stranger and he will charge whatever price he wishes. These are just a few examples of the plights Saudi women go through in their daily lives.

http://www.islam-watch.org/KhaledWaleed/SaudiWomenStory.htm

My answer:
Can you see the bright side?.Why women cannot go out from the house alone...All that is to protect the women.If they go out with her friends, a woman, or with her brother or husband, that will make her becomes more secure.When they need help, the one who followed them can help them.When got people disturb her, the one that followed her can protect her.The women can go outside the house alone with her husband permission or she has to tell her husband first.WHY?.By that her husband can know where she is going and when a problem occurs, he can find her and help her.Is that a problem?.Protecting women is a problem?.You must be kidding
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)
To this very day no Muslim scholar had ever debated with a Jew to confirm that Allah is YHWH. May I ask you why they had no done so? Why is there open debate with Christians or Jews as regards to their believe and yours? That is because Muslims are afraid that they would not be able to answer questions put forth by them. Even in this country Muslims do not want a interreligious forum to be held. What are they really afraid of? Beats me!

My answer:
In this country, open debate between religions is not allowed.The reason?.Because Malaysia is a country that full of tolerance in religion.That is why you cannot watch the debate.But the debate happened.You can see the debates by the well-known scholar,Ahmed Deedat,around the world.You can read his books or if you don't want to believe, you can watch his videos.But we all are worshiping to same God, but we call Him with different names.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Last edited by eastrun at 18-4-2007 07:41 PM ]