The evil that had blinded Muslims

barney50 · Post time 7-4-2007 01:55 PM

Reply #198 eastrun's post

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Since your laws got that kind of punishment, then why you make it as a
problem when the same laws implemented in Islamic Laws?.Like I said
before, Allah sent same message to every prophet, but each time new
prophet come, the new prophet will restore, re add or re correct the
previous laws, that is why between religions,got same laws and as well
as additional laws.

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No, that is barbaric traditional laws and not GOD's. Be it in Islam or any other, such laws could have been accepted for that period but not now in this era. It is uncivilize law which only heartless people would carry out and Musims who carry out such punishment are barbaric and heartless beings

I repeat:
"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers
after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to
Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the
Psalms.Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others
We have
not;- and to Moses God spoke direct;-"(Surah an Nisa' 4:163~164)

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All I can say is these verses are jsut xerox of the earlier religon. Have it in your Quran does not mean it aples to all or it is the religion of the old. Mulsims believe so but the Jews and Christians do not. And nothing can be done about it. get that?
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Initially, all laws came from Allah the Almighty because He:
"He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: and He has full
knowledge of all things."(Surah Al Hadiid 57:3)

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I do not deny that but using this verse to justify such laws is moronic. I too casn use ths verse and say something else would that be accepted as GOD's law?
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You don't need to Google, just ask the Christians in Christian and Christianity forum.Please clarify yourself.

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Why do I need to when I know the motives of Christians and their practice. It is you who need to know certain facts about Christianity because you are looking at Christianity form the view point of Islam which the Christians do not agree.
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r:
Hek eleh...read la the Holy Bible. Adam is not a Jew, Jonah is not a
Jew,please read in the book of Jonah, furthermore, your rishis also not
a group of Jews, then, why are you so worry when Muhammad an Arab has
been chosen by Allah to be one of His prophet?.Are you thinking that in
this world, only the Jews existed from the very beginning?.So, no
problem when Allah has chosen Muhammad an Arab as a prophet because
there are many non-Jews prophets before him.

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The Bible of the Jews were written for them and by their people and so it is for them. Your Quran was written by Muslims for the Arabs and it is for them. The Vedas were written by Indians and it is for them. What other clarification do you need to confirm that?
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And you are the stupidest Hindu I have met in this forum.Like I said,
if that place never got rainfall, so of course there is no living
things there.There is rainfall but with season.But can you see the
bright side of it?.It gave other human to do charity upon them.
But, like I said before, since you have condemned the Holy Quran just
because it has no keterangan about the climate of Africa, then show me
whether your scriptures got such verses telling about that or not.
What I can see is the Karma is like pouring oil in the fire...which is
blaming others for evils that you have done..it is unfair and it is
evil.Islam against that practice.

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It is clear that you did not understand a word that is spoken here. Karma is actin of individual and it never blame others for your onw action. Tell where did I blame others for Karma. So you have not been reading what I wrote but simple bulldoze what coems to your mind. It is stupid of you to say so. When you commin sin why would others carry it for you. It is your own seed that would if yu do not repent. Are you afraid that your children might pay for your sins? You need to because that is what Kawma is all about and take this as a warning
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That is why I said it applied only for Muslims, not for the whole
races.the Islamic laws are for Muslims.The Hindusm laws for
Hindus.Never the Syariah laws applied for all.Then why are you so worry
about that?.Why are you so worry when Islamic laws are applied upon
Muslims. It is laws of the religion, so it applies upon the followers.

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Yes, for Muslims of the 7th century and not for Muslims of the 21st century. During he 7th century they used gong to call Muslims for prayers but now in the 21st century they have PA system and so the gong was discarded. It is the same, when tiem changes laws too must be changed to suite the time.

Don't tell me that Hindusm laws never applied upon Hindus. Look at the
way you punish the evil followers, the way you worship your Lord and
etc. Aren't that included in the religion laws?.Can I ask you the same
question?.Since your religion also can be said outdated, then why are
you following them?.Why don't you create your own way in worshiping
your Lord and etc?.Why are you following your father and
mother.Why?.Because...it is your religion laws and it applies on you
because you are one of the followers!.

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Where have you heard that Hindus are punished under Hindu laws? What is wroong in the way we worship GOD? You aske me meaningless question based on heresay. The religious laws may be out dated but the religous believe is not. GOD is believed as GOD and that has no change nor can you change yours. Religion teaches to do good and that did not change but I wonder if you do the same. Religion says attend temple worship and that did not change and so is yours. So, what is good and acceptable by all can be accepted. Wheras Islam is not like that, weather you like it or not you must follow otheriwse yo are in blashpemy and would be charged in the syariah court.

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Then, how can you make sure that the one who has made prophecy upon you
regarding your death is not a false astrologer?.In this case, how you
want to proof that they are the true astrologer. That can give perfect
prophecy.You have to be careful.Who knows the astrologer you hired also
a fake astrologer who tried to be God by making prophecy about your
death.Be careful!.

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It is simple compare it with the other and see if it tell the same. If it does not than we know for sure that the first reader lied. Simple as that.

Regarding the verse:
"Verily, all things have We created in proportion and measure."(Surah Al-Qamar 54:49)
About the death in the wombs..so, that shows Allah has measured that the baby will only able to live in the womb.
About a boy grows up and died before he completed his study...that
shows Allah has measured that he only able to live before he completed
his study.

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So, now you believe in fate and destiny? Heh! That is the believe of Hindus and Buddhist, are you trying to say islam too beoieve in fate and destiny? This is something new I'm hearing and need to explore further.

A child in prime age is all well and good but suddenly has high fever
and becomes victim of polio, no more running around or abe to fend for
itself, it that perfect and complete?...that shows Allah has measured
that he only able to be healthy at certain time, and then he will be
sick.

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So, all this is fate and destiny, but you make fun when I talk about Karma. What a hypocrate Muslim you have become.
Is hyporacy your trade mark?.
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Ok...:
"Say: "Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know
who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received
Guidance.""(Surah Thaha 50:132)
"Verily, this is the Very Truth and Certainly."(Surah Al-Waaqiah 56:95)

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Why wait till judgement day. You should be able to detect it now as you can see who is liar and sinners in this world. No need to wait till judgement day to find out. Killers are sinners no mater for what they killed. Cheaters and liars any many in our society which is very obvious from what we see and hear. Political liars and conning wakil rakyats are al sinners in the eyes of the peopele and GOD. So why wait for judgement day to know of them. we know who they are and we know thye would pay the price for their wrong doings hee in their life time and their children too would suffer ofr their father's sin. No on can escape the law of karma./b]

eastrun · Post time 7-4-2007 05:55 PM

1)
No, that is barbaric traditional laws and not GOD's. Be it in Islam or any other, such laws could have been accepted for that period but not now in this era. It is uncivilize law which only heartless people would carry out and Musims who carry out such punishment are barbaric and heartless beings.

My answer:
You said that because in your head, you keep thinking that the Islamic laws are implemented on every person in the country, where as, as I say before, they applies on the Muslims.Initially all laws are God's. Because He is the Creator of all. If Islamic laws are uncivilized, then what would you call for the Hindusm laws which existed before Islam, which also a pack of old laws which cannot be implemented today, then why you follow your religion laws?.Well..in your religion also got punishments for the traitors of your religion,Will you say those devotees are heartless too?..for carrying such punishments until today?.Ask yourself!.
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2)
All I can say is these verses are jsut xerox of the earlier religon. Have it in your Quran does not mean it aples to all or it is the religion of the old. Mulsims believe so but the Jews and Christians do not. And nothing can be done about it. get that?

My answer:
I have a Christian friend, a Sarawakian, named Ricky.Which originally a Pagan.Before this he always say my book got no connection with his books. Then I revealed to him verse by verse from the Holy Quran. And now he realized that the book got connection and Muhammad does one of the receivers of divine revelations. Before this he doesn't know because he is not exposed to my Book.

"Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:121)
"When it is said to them, "Believe in what God Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:91)

So the Jews and the Christians didn't read the Holy Quran.Therefore they don't know what the Holy Quran is all about. That is why I always suggest the unbelievers to read the Holy Quran first before make commentary upon the Book or the Faith (Islam).
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3)
I do not deny that but using this verse to justify such laws is moronic. I too casn use ths verse and say something else would that be accepted as GOD's law?

My answer:
Yes, you can say because He is the The First and The Last.He created the laws...initially. Whatever it is, all laws initially came from Him.Allahuakbar!.
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4)
Why do I need to when I know the motives of Christians and their practice. It is you who need to know certain facts about Christianity because you are looking at Christianity form the view point of Islam which the Christians do not agree.

My answer:
Did you asked the Christians?. The law about adultery is in the Bible and I am sure a true Christian won't agree with you.That is why, I asked you to ask them because I know that you won't agree with my point.So, ask the true Christian about the law of adultery in the Book of Leviticus.Clarify yourself.
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5)
The Bible of the Jews were written for them and by their people and so it is for them. Your Quran was written by Muslims for the Arabs and it is for them. The Vedas were written by Indians and it is for them. What other clarification do you need to confirm that?

My answer:
Even though the book is for them, but the book not only talk about the prophets among them.Like Quran, even though the Book sent to Muhammad an Arab, but it also talk about other prophets which are not a group of Arabs.So, it shows in the books, that before the existence of the Jews and the Arabs, Allah already sent His divine revelations to the previous prophets which came from different races too. So, it is not a problem when Muhammad an Arab was chosen by Allah to be one of the receivers of the divine revelations.
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6)
It is clear that you did not understand a word that is spoken here. Karma is actin of individual and it never blame others for your onw action. Tell where did I blame others for Karma. So you have not been reading what I wrote but simple bulldoze what coems to your mind. It is stupid of you to say so. When you commin sin why would others carry it for you. It is your own seed that would if yu do not repent. Are you afraid that your children might pay for your sins? You need to because that is what Kawma is all about and take this as a warning

My answer:
Before this you talk about..When you do a wrongdoing, your son will also be blamed for that.But I said no, because Islam said that when you do a wrongdoing, you will suffer with what you have done, not your sons or daughters.But you said No...just see the way the community treat your sons and daughters when you do wrong things..it is because of Karma.

Then I said, it is an evil and Karma doesn't stop it, but Islam against that. That is why I said the Karma is like pouring oil into the fire and make blaming others phenomena becomes worst including your own seed. So, I am not wrong saying that because Islam never taught that, but the Karma did!.

Allah said:

"That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:134)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)
Yes, for Muslims of the 7th century and not for Muslims of the 21st century. During he 7th century they used gong to call Muslims for prayers but now in the 21st century they have PA system and so the gong was discarded. It is the same, when tiem changes laws too must be changed to suite the time.

My answer:
During the 7th centuries, not only tabuk was used to call Muslims for prayers, but also using azan.And now,the practice is still there, where the azan still has been used to call the Muslim for prayers.Nothing change.Same method.The use of PA is to make the azan can be heard clearer to others. But the way of calling Muslims for Prayers is still the same.I don't see it changes the laws, but it makes the laws implemented better.No changes.
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8)
Where have you heard that Hindus are punished under Hindu laws? What is wroong in the way we worship GOD? You aske me meaningless question based on heresay. The religious laws may be out dated but the religous believe is not. GOD is believed as GOD and that has no change nor can you change yours. Religion teaches to do good and that did not change but I wonder if you do the same. Religion says attend temple worship and that did not change and so is yours. So, what is good and acceptable by all can be accepted. Wheras Islam is not like that, weather you like it or not you must follow otheriwse yo are in blashpemy and would be charged in the syariah court.

My answer:
Then, the way you worship your God is not the Hindusm laws?.The way you attend the temple, is not the Hindusm laws?.It is all laws.And the laws make you become a devotee.This is where the connection of the belief and laws appear.The religious beliefs are not outdated therefore the religious laws of Hindusm in the eyes of the Hindus also not outdated because when you have faith with your religion, automatically you will accept your religion's laws.

Before this I asked you to search what are the meanings of HARAM, HALAL, WAJIB, SUNAT, MAKRUH in Islam.But, maybe you forgot. Study about these and you will see that Islam is not a cruel religion like you have thought.
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[ Last edited by eastrun at 8-4-2007 11:47 AM ]

eastrun · Post time 7-4-2007 05:55 PM

9)
It is simple compare it with the other and see if it tell the same. Ifit does not than we know for sure that the first reader lied. Simple asthat.

My answer:
When it is different, then how do you know the first reader iswrong?.Maybe the first reader is right and the 2nd reader is wrong.Then which is the true and which is the wrong one?.
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10)
So, now you believe in fate and destiny? Heh! That is the believe ofHindus and Buddhist, are you trying to say islam too beoieve in fateand destiny? This is something new I'm hearing and need to explorefurther.

My answer:
My goodness..after 25 years of research, this is the first time youheard that the Muslims believe in fate?.What research are youdoing?.Research based on hearsay?
See this:

"He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has
He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things,
and ordered them in due proportions."(Surah Al-Furqaan 25:2)

"So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to
each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven withlights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) theExalted in Might, Full of Knowledge."(Surah Fussilat 41:12)

And the Christians, the Jews also believe in fate.
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11)
So, all this is fate and destiny, but you make fun when I talk about Karma. What a hypocrate Muslim you have become.
Is hyporacy your trade mark?.

My answer:
You karma blame others including your own seeds,that is the fate you are talking about. But in Islam, the fate is not blaming others for what you have done.So, it is different between those two Faiths.No, hypocracy, but clear statement that fate in Islam is not like Karma.
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12)
Why wait till judgement day. You should be able to detect it now as you can see who is liar and sinners in this world. No need to wait till judgement day to find out. Killers are sinners no mater for what they killed. Cheaters and liars any many in our society which is very obvious from what we see and hear. Political liars and conning wakil rakyats are al sinners in the eyes of the peopele and GOD. So why wait for judgement day to know of them. we know who they are and we know thye would pay the price for their wrong doings hee in their life time and their children too would suffer ofr their father's sin. No on can escape the law of karma./b]

My answer:
Wait and see who deserves the punishments from Allah.The punishments are different from what you have suffered in the world.But Allah said,before the time comes:

"Others (there are who) have acknowledged their wrong-doings: they have
mixed an act that was good with another that was evil. Perhaps God will turn unto
them (in Mercy): for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"(Surah At-Taubah 9:102).

That is why the Judgement Day will be the true 'court' for all.

"And say: "Work (righteousness): Soon will God observe your work, and His
Apostle, and the Believers: Soon will ye be brought back to the knower of what is
hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."(Surah At-Taubah 9:105)

You are welcome, Barney....always....

Allah Knows Best.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 8-4-2007 11:41 AM ]

barney50 · Post time 9-4-2007 01:56 PM

Reply #202 eastrun's post

by eastrun:
You said that because in your head, you keep thinking that the
Islamic laws are implemented on every person in the country, where as,
as I say before, they applies on the Muslims.Initially all laws are
God's. Because He is the Creator of all. If Islamic laws are
uncivilized, then what would you call for the Hindusm laws which
existed before Islam, which also a pack of old laws which cannot be
implemented today, then why you follow your religion laws?.Well..in
your religion also got punishments for the traitors of your
religion,Will you say those devotees are heartless too?..for carrying
such punishments until today?.Ask yourself!.

Copy the Code

As I have said time and time again those laws practiced by Hindus during the vedic period had ended and are not applied in this era. Show me in the Indian penal code where Vedic laws are used to punish people? It is the same Islam had laws know as syariah during aperiod diffeent from ours and was acceptabbel by peole of that region but now it is different as peole have evolve since then and are now know as modern times where man had began to think and rationalize all forms of legislation. We do not follow religious laws but religious rituals on matters related to religion. Rituals are different from religious laws. You need to know that difference. You go to Mecca and go around the kaaba and that is religious ritual which is a must because you prophet did it and as Muslims you must folow the sunnah of the prophet. You go to Mecca and trow stones on the four pillars of satan and that is called riligious ritual. Make sure you understand this difference etween this two first.
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I have a Christian friend, a Sarawakian, named Ricky.Which
originally a Pagan.Before this he always say my book got no connection
with his books. Then I revealed to him verse by verse from the Holy
Quran. And now he realized that the book got connection and Muhammad
does one of the receivers of divine revelations. Before this he doesn't
know because he is not exposed to my Book.
"Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as
it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who
reject faith therein,- the loss is their own."(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:121)
"
When it is said to them, "Believe in what God
Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:"
yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is
with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times
gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:91)
So the Jews and the Christians didn't read the Holy Quran.Therefore
they don't know what the Holy Quran is all about. That is why I always
suggest the unbelievers to read the Holy Quran first before make
commentary upon the Book or the Faith (Islam).

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I do not need to drink the whole bowl of curry to tell you how it taste. A spoonfull would tell if it is palatable. To me it is not and that is why I speak my mind here.
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Yes, you can say because He is the The First and The Last.He created
the laws...initially. Whatever it is, all laws initially came from
Him.Allahuakbar!.

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Laws may have been transmitted by GOD to his chosen men but was the transmission recorded as it suppose to be. Surely over the centuries it would have gone through many interpretations ans so the original transmition was not recored as we now record in CD's and tapes. It was oral and could go through many mouths and written later with different perception. You cannot be one hundred percent sure of it but believe it to be so.
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by eastrun:
Did you asked the Christians?. The law about adultery is in the
Bible and I am sure a true Christian won't agree with you.That is why,
I asked you to ask them because I know that you won't agree with my
point.So, ask the true Christian about the law of adultery in the Book
of Leviticus.Clarify yourself.

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Bookof Leviticus is from the Jewish faith and not Christians. Morever this laws aws adopted by Mohammed into the quran to say it is from GOD of Adam and so all must accept islam which confirem the OT. It is ploy to delude the Jews and others. What I'm saying is such laws cannot be apllied in this modern age. THat is my argument here. It sounds barbaric and should be be accepted by rational Muslims.
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by eastrun:
Even though the book is for them, but the book not only talk about
the prophets among them.Like Quran, even though the Book sent to
Muhammad an Arab, but it also talk about other prophets which are not a
group of Arabs.So, it shows in the books, that before the existence of
the Jews and the Arabs, Allah already sent His divine revelations to
the previous prophets which came from different races too. So, it is
not a problem when Muhammad an Arab was chosen by Allah to be one of
the receivers of the divine revelations.

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I have already said it was a political ploy to win the Jews and Christians over to Islam. You cannot say just because Mohamemd had said so would mean Jews and Christians must follow such laws. They to knew that GOD had sent such laws only or the period of time and not forever till doomsday.
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by eastrun:
Before this you talk about..When you do a wrongdoing, your son will
also be blamed for that.But I said no, because Islam said that when you
do a wrongdoing, you will suffer with what you have done, not your sons
or daughters.But you said No...just see the way the community treat
your sons and daughters when you do wrong things..it is because of
Karma.
Then I said, it is an evil and Karma doesn't stop it, but Islam
against that. That is why I said the Karma is like pouring oil into
the fire and make blaming others phenomena becomes worst including
your own seed. So, I am not wrong saying that because Islam never
taught that, but the Karma did!.
"That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:134)

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Islam is against Karma because Mohammed was not able to comprehend the happenings in man's life. Allah to could not explain because your Allah is weak according to you. When I say you wil suffer for your bad deeds you said Allah would punish during judgement day but you yourself notknowing of what you said post this verse to tell me that they shall reap the fruit of what the did. Is it not a contradictory? You use syariah to punish sinners and say they would be punished by Allah too on judgement day but here you give a different interpretation. So, when cornered you try to wist and slot some verse fro the hadith to jsutify your false claim. That is Islam for you!

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by eastrun::
During the 7th centuries, not only tabuk was used to call Muslims
for prayers, but also using azan.And now,the practice is still there,
where the azan still has been used to call the Muslim for
prayers.Nothing change.Same method.The use of PA is to make the azan
can be heard clearer to others. But the way of calling Muslims for
Prayers is still the same.I don't see it changes the laws, but it makes
the laws implemented better.No changes.

Copy the Code

Yes, that is what I meant. Changes are required when time is changing. Today is PA system but who knows what method would they use in some fifty years from now. Muslim's needs to change according to time and not be stuborn sticking to some medieval laws. The secular laws is much better and more realistic to time.
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Then, the way you worship your God is not the Hindusm laws?.The way
you attend the temple, is not the Hindusm laws?.It is all laws.And the
laws make you become a devotee.This is where the connection of the
belief and laws appear.The religious beliefs are not outdated therefore
the religious laws of Hindusm in the eyes of the Hindus also not
outdated because when you have faith with your religion, automatically
you will accept your religion's laws.
Before this I asked you to search what are the meanings of HARAM,
HALAL, WAJIB, SUNAT, MAKRUH in Islam.But, maybe you forgot. Study about
these and you will see that Islam is not a cruel religion like you have
thought.

Copy the Code

There you are. You are confused between ritual and laws. Religious ritual are different from religious laws and I have clearly explained above and would not wish to repeat here again. read again my reply in the first part of this page to understand what it means laws and rituals.

eastrun · Post time 9-4-2007 06:41 PM

1)
As I have said time and time again those laws practiced by Hindus during the vedic period had ended and are not applied in this era. Show me in the Indian penal code where Vedic laws are used to punish people? It is the same Islam had laws know as syariah during aperiod diffeent from ours and was acceptabbel by peole of that region but now it is different as peole have evolve since then and are now know as modern times where man had began to think and rationalize all forms of legislation. We do not follow religious laws but religious rituals on matters related to religion. Rituals are different from religious laws. You need to know that difference. You go to Mecca and go around the kaaba and that is religious ritual which is a must because you prophet did it and as Muslims you must folow the sunnah of the prophet. You go to Mecca and trow stones on the four pillars of satan and that is called riligious ritual. Make sure you understand this difference etween this two first.

My answer:
So, that is the problem for Hinduism, not Islam.You cannot say that Islam cannot implement the laws among the followers, just because the Hinduism didn't applied the laws to the followers too.Like I have told before, since the laws make people (followers) aware with him/herself from commit wrongdoings, so the laws can be acceptable. The important thing to see here is the goodness or benefit of the laws .Religion rituals and laws can be considered same. Because in order to do the ritual, you must have laws to guide the rituals.Not simply do the ritual without guidance.
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2)
I do not need to drink the whole bowl of curry to tell you how it taste. A spoonfull would tell if it is palatable. To me it is not and that is why I speak my mind here.

My answer:
Scripture and curry is not a same thing. The curry just one spoon, you can know the taste, but the scripture, you need to read the whole scripture first, before you can get a complete picture of what Quran is talking about.Well..since you refused, so you will never learn and will keep raising questions.
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3)
Laws may have been transmitted by GOD to his chosen men but was the transmission recorded as it suppose to be. Surely over the centuries it would have gone through many interpretations ans so the original transmition was not recored as we now record in CD's and tapes. It was oral and could go through many mouths and written later with different perception. You cannot be one hundred percent sure of it but believe it to be so.

My answer:
Like I said before, Quran and Islam got connection between Christian and Jewish. Therefore, if you read those three scriptures, you can see the similarity of the laws between the three religions.Can you imagine that?.The difference is, when you read the (the four books), you will see there are some additional laws from the previous books.By that, you can see, the laws actually not distorted.But re-added throughout the periods.
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4)
Bookof Leviticus is from the Jewish faith and not Christians. Morever this laws aws adopted by Mohammed into the quran to say it is from GOD of Adam and so all must accept islam which confirem the OT. It is ploy to delude the Jews and others. What I'm saying is such laws cannot be apllied in this modern age. THat is my argument here. It sounds barbaric and should be be accepted by rational Muslims.

My answer:
No..you also can see the laws in the book of Matthew, one of the books of Christian faith.Where it mentioned that, even when you set a vision to a woman also can be considered commit adultery.

Leviticus is one of the books that the Jews and Christians believe that was written by Moses. So, Jesus was came to confirm the laws.See this:

Jesus said:
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17~19)

And Quran confirming that Jesus said the same:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"(Surah Ash-Shaff 61:9)

But for more clarification, ask the Christians..the true Christians
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5)
I have already said it was a political ploy to win the Jews and Christians over to Islam. You cannot say just because Mohamemd had said so would mean Jews and Christians must follow such laws. They to knew that GOD had sent such laws only or the period of time and not forever till doomsday.

My answer:
Hek eleh...read the Bible...the book also talks about the non-Jews prophets such as Adam and Jonah. So, it is not a problem when an Arab was chosen to be one of the prophets.
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[ Last edited by eastrun at 9-4-2007 07:01 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 9-4-2007 06:56 PM

6)
Islam is against Karma because Mohammed was not able to comprehend the happenings in man's life. Allah to could not explain because your Allah is weak according to you. When I say you wil suffer for your bad deeds you said Allah would punish during judgement day but you yourself notknowing of what you said post this verse to tell me that they shall reap the fruit of what the did. Is it not a contradictory? You use syariah to punish sinners and say they would be punished by Allah too on judgement day but here you give a different interpretation. So, when cornered you try to wist and slot some verse fro the hadith to jsutify your false claim. That is Islam for you!

My answer:
No.. it shows that by Allah permission, Muhammad was able to bring the justful law.When you commit wrongdoing, you will get what you have done, not your friends or your seeds or whoever around you!.Your karma making a community act worse by because it teaches people to blame others for what you have done!!.That is why I said, it is like pouring oil into the fire.Like I have said before, the punishments on earth are to prevent human from commit bad things and we may repent.And when we are not repent, then during the Judgement, Allah will give heavier punishments.But, Allah won't punish your seeds, your friends and whoever around you.He will punish you!!.
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7)
Yes, that is what I meant. Changes are required when time is changing. Today is PA system but who knows what method would they use in some fifty years from now. Muslim's needs to change according to time and not be stuborn sticking to some medieval laws. The secular laws is much better and more realistic to time.

My answer:
It made the laws implemented better...not changing the laws at all.The way of calling people for prayers is still the same, there is azan and some place, they also use tabuk.It is not compulsory.That is why I ask you to learn about HARAM, HALAL, SUNAT, MAKRUH,WAJIB.Go and have a search.
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8)
There you are. You are confused between ritual and laws. Religious ritual are different from religious laws and I have clearly explained above and would not wish to repeat here again. read again my reply in the first part of this page to understand what it means laws and rituals.

My answer:
What I meant was, in order to do the rituals, you also need the laws to guide the rituals.Everything we do in our life needs laws as guidance. So, I am not wrong saying that because the laws are the core of the rituals.

"Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah. they are manifestly wandering (in error)!"(Surah Az-Zumar 39:22)

You are welcome, Barney...

[ Last edited by eastrun at 9-4-2007 06:59 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 10-4-2007 07:12 AM

Reply #205 eastru's post

by eastrun:
So, that is the problem for Hinduism, not Islam.You cannot say that
Islam cannot implement the laws among the followers, just because the
Hinduism didn't applied the laws to the followers too.Like I have told
before, since the laws make people (followers) aware with him/herself
from commit wrongdoings, so the laws can be acceptable. The important
thing to see here is the goodness or benefit of the laws .Religion
rituals and laws can be considered same. Because in order to do the
ritual, you must have laws to guide the rituals.Not simply do the
ritual without guidance.

Copy the Code

I do not bother if it was applied to their own kind but why impose on others? The invasion of Iraq, Persia, Afghanistan and India was to impose these belif and laws formulated for the desert people. There is no goodness as it brings misery to others. No, you are wrong. Rituals and laws are not the same. Rituals can be avoided but laws cannot be avoided. As for Muslims they believe these laws are given to Mohammed by GOD. We do not believe so because laws of GOD would not be bias or impartial. These so called laws are bias to women. When a woman reports she had been raped instead of punishming the culprit the Islamic laws punishes the victim. What kind of GOD's law is that? Thsi is only one example of bias Islamic law. That is why i say such laws cannot be from GOD. It was created by men and for the benefit of them so that they can be masters of Islam. Such stupid idea of 7th century nits.
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:
Scripture and curry is not a same thing. The curry just one spoon,
you can know the taste, but the scripture, you need to read the whole
scripture first, before you can get a complete picture of what Quran is
talking about.Well..since you refused, so you will never learn and will
keep raising questions.

Copy the Code

Why does a book contain preface? So that a reader can understand what the content of the whoe story is al about. It is the same with you Quran. It does not taste good to me as I had browsed through its content and realize it gives provocation to our mind and turn us inot robots and slaves to it. Simple truth.
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:
Like I said before, Quran and Islam got connection between Christian
and Jewish. Therefore, if you read those three scriptures, you can see
the similarity of the laws between the three religions.Can you imagine
that?.The difference is, when you read the (the four books), you will
see there are some additional laws from the previous books.By that, you
can see, the laws actually not distorted.But re-added throughout the
periods.

Copy the Code

Only Muslims say so because Mohammed said so. But why are Jews and Christians not saying the same? Did you think about it? Please do not think we are people of the 7th century. The similarity in OT and NT I can agree because Jesus was born of the Jews clan and the Torah promised the coming oif the saviour. But for an Arab to claim that would be fairy tale to Jews and Christians. The were not promised of a messanger from the Arab clan nor was it mentioned in their scripture but Mohamemd claimed it so in order to make the Jews and Christians believe in his religion. Simple facts to ponder by converts of Islam
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:
No..you also can see the laws in the book of Matthew, one of the
books of Christian faith.Where it mentioned that, even when you set a
vision to a woman also can be considered commit adultery.
Leviticus is one of the books that the Jews and Christians believe
that was written by Moses. So, Jesus was came to confirm the laws.See
this:
Jesus said:
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be
accomplished. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17~19)

Copy the Code

If Mohammed wanted to follow the path of Jesus then he should not have formulated any other new laws. He should have stuck to the old laws given to the Isrealites by GOD to Abraham, Moses and the others.. Why did he make changes and still claim that it is the continuation of the OT and NT.? If he had just followed the OT and NT would not be easier where the Arabs would become Jews and Christians have the same GOD and celebrating the same festivals as the former? No, that was not the idea of Mohammed. He wanted to be a leadr of all and made sure Mecca would become the centre of the religion he created to unite the others. It is like political entity where other parties joined together and call it BN. But each would have their own agenda. My dear fellow such an idea would not work because politics and religion are two different entiry. Do not confuse yourself as Mohammed was a confused person.

And Quran confirming that Jesus said the same:
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me,
and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name
shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said,
"this is evident sorcery!"(Surah Ash-Shaff 61:9)
But for more clarification, ask the Christians..the true Christians

Copy the Code

Yeh! I can see that but the bible did not confirm the coming of Mohammed. It was Mohammed who claimed it so. I too can claim the same but would the Jews or Christians accept me as one of them? These verse is the verse of Mulims and not the true bible verse. Why, did Mohammed think the Jews would so gullible to accept his word? I which part of the OT or the NT did Mohamemd pointed out to them of his coming? Can you lead me to that particular verse?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Hek eleh...read the Bible...the book also talks about the non-Jews
prophets such as Adam and Jonah. So, it is not a problem when an Arab
was chosen to be one of the prophets.

Copy the Code

No, Adam or any others mentioned in the Bible were not non Jews but of the Jewish clan. Muslims are trying to mislead others into believeing so. You wnated to make your point by making fictious stories without any authentication.

barney50 · Post time 10-4-2007 07:28 AM

Reply #206 eastrun's post

:
No.. it shows that by Allah permission, Muhammad was able to bring
the justful law.When you commit wrongdoing, you will get what you have
done, not your friends or your seeds or whoever around you!.Your karma
making a community act worse by because it teaches people to blame
others for what you have done!!.That is why I said, it is like pouring
oil into the fire.Like I have said before, the punishments on earth are
to prevent human from commit bad things and we may repent.And when we
are not repent, then during the Judgement, Allah will give heavier
punishments.But, Allah won't punish your seeds, your friends and
whoever around you.He will punish you!!.

Copy the Code

Whoevre said your friend would be punished for your wrong doing? Are you trying to mislead others here of what I said? Very cunning of you to say such. Is this how Islam was spread with lies? I said, I repeat I said your sins would follow your seed. Which means if you escape paying here in this life, you'd still pay it in your next and if you escape that then your seeds [children born from your seed] would pay the price. It is how the karmic law works. You cannot escape without paying for your sins. It is more logical then to punish you here and then get punished in the hereafter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
It made the laws implemented better...not changing the laws at
all.The way of calling people for prayers is still the same, there is
azan and some place, they also use tabuk.It is not compulsory.That is
why I ask you to learn about HARAM, HALAL, SUNAT, MAKRUH,WAJIB.Go and
have a search.

Copy the Code

How did Mohammed address his followers? Did he use PA system? But now you see Imams suing PA system to address the gathering. This are changes in one's life. During Mohammed's time if someone had to send a messahe to Mohammed they would have to travel hundred of miles by camel and may take days but today a Mufti can send SMS to his people with lies too. Simple exapmle of a inccident that took place in Ipoh. This is no fiction but actual event.
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[code]:
What I meant was, in order to do the rituals, you also need the lawsto guide the rituals.Everything we do in our life needs laws asguidance. So, I am not wrong saying that because the laws are the coreof the rituals.

"Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, sothat he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than onehard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened againstcelebrating the praises of Allah. they are manifestly wandering (inerror)!"(Surah Az-Zumar 39:22)[code]

No, you said Laws and Rituals are the same. You said it and so I replied. Now you realize the difference and admit the mistake indirectly. Laws are laws and rituals are rituals. Law says rape is a sin and must be punished. Ritual says you must throw stones at the four pillars when you are doing your hj but if you are unable to do it is ok as it is not compulsary. Can you understand the difference now?

eastrun · Post time 10-4-2007 06:58 PM

1)
I do not bother if it was applied to their own kind but why impose on others? The invasion of Iraq, Persia, Afghanistan and India was to impose these belif and laws formulated for the desert people. There is no goodness as it brings misery to others. No, you are wrong. Rituals and laws are not the same. Rituals can be avoided but laws cannot be avoided. As for Muslims they believe these laws are given to Mohammed by GOD. We do not believe so because laws of GOD would not be bias or impartial. These so called laws are bias to women. When a woman reports she had been raped instead of punishming the culprit the Islamic laws punishes the victim. What kind of GOD's law is that? Thsi is only one example of bias Islamic law. That is why i say such laws cannot be from GOD. It was created by men and for the benefit of them so that they can be masters of Islam. Such stupid idea of 7th century nits.

My answer:

I really don't understand why you make the laws as a problem. Like there is no other thing to be thought about.The laws are to control people from commit wrongdoings. It is not something to worry of, when you said the laws have no goodness because you just don't want to understand why the laws are created. You messed up your old brain.

Barney, you should learn more about Islamic laws, before you talk about it.When did the laws of Islam against women?.You talk about something you don't know and this is the 1st time I met a stupid researcher:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four
(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way"(Surah An-Nisa' 4:15)

Did the laws blindly punish the women?.Before punish, you need to ask the women first whether they commit adultery or not! with four reliable witnesses.If they do, then punish them.If not?.Then, they will not be punished.

Where got in the Islamic laws said that women that was raped will be punished?.Are you crazy.That is why I say, you messed up your brain and at last you appear as a crazy uncle.
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2)
Why does a book contain preface? So that a reader can understand what the content of the whoe story is al about. It is the same with you Quran. It does not taste good to me as I had browsed through its content and realize it gives provocation to our mind and turn us inot robots and slaves to it. Simple truth.

My answer:
The preface is the summary.It is not telling the whole story.Just like when you are reading a novel la.When you read the summary, you only get a small picture of the novel.But you don't know what are the novel is talking about briefly. By reading summary, you can make your own mind, but for better understanding, read the whole novel.If the preface is telling everything, then why should the producer produce the novel instead of producing the preface ONLY?.
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3)
Only Muslims say so because Mohammed said so. But why are Jews and Christians not saying the same? Did you think about it? Please do not think we are people of the 7th century. The similarity in OT and NT I can agree because Jesus was born of the Jews clan and the Torah promised the coming oif the saviour. But for an Arab to claim that would be fairy tale to Jews and Christians. The were not promised of a messanger from the Arab clan nor was it mentioned in their scripture but Mohamemd claimed it so in order to make the Jews and Christians believe in his religion. Simple facts to ponder by converts of Islam

My answer:
Can you ask the same thing to them?. Why don't the Christians and the Jews believe in Vedas?.Why don't they accept the laws of Hinduism?.Is it because your books are books of fairy tales?.
Muhammad was mentioned by name in the Torah (in Hebrew, the word Muhammad is Muhammadim), where the translators already translated into "Altogether lovely". It is in SONG OF SOLOMON.Read the chapter in Hebrew. If I am not mistaken, the pronunciation is:

Hikkoh mamibtaqim mikulloh Muhammadim zaihdudi,mizaihrai Bainah Jerusalem.

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4)
If Mohammed wanted to follow the path of Jesus then he should not have formulated any other new laws. He should have stuck to the old laws given to the Isrealites by GOD to Abraham, Moses and the others.. Why did he make changes and still claim that it is the continuation of the OT and NT.? If he had just followed the OT and NT would not be easier where the Arabs would become Jews and Christians have the same GOD and celebrating the same festivals as the former? No, that was not the idea of Mohammed. He wanted to be a leadr of all and made sure Mecca would become the centre of the religion he created to unite the others. It is like political entity where other parties joined together and call it BN. But each would have their own agenda. My dear fellow such an idea would not work because politics and religion are two different entiry. Do not confuse yourself as Mohammed was a confused person.

My answer:
Muhammad came to reconfirm, re-correct and re-add the laws that were brought by Jesus. But Jesus came to fulfill the previous laws only.Heh...every prophet brought different laws. Like Abraham, during his period, he brought no law about adultery, but during Moses, Allah sent down a law that prevent human from commit adultery...which can be found in the book of Leviticus..why don't you ask the same question to Moses?.If he wanted to follow the path of the previous messengers, then why he changed and re-add the laws?.But still we believe that he is a continuation of previous messengers because there are laws that same as previous messenger's in the book.Why don't you say that Moses had a political agenda?.

What I can see here..you are really confused.Before this you agree that the laws should be changed according to the period, and now, you twist to the laws of the prophet should be as same as like previous prophets.It is only Jesus was sent to fulfill the previous laws.other prophets brought new laws!.
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5)
Yeh! I can see that but the bible did not confirm the coming of Mohammed. It was Mohammed who claimed it so. I too can claim the same but would the Jews or Christians accept me as one of them? These verse is the verse of Mulims and not the true bible verse. Why, did Mohammed think the Jews would so gullible to accept his word? I which part of the OT or the NT did Mohamemd pointed out to them of his coming? Can you lead me to that particular verse?

My answer:
Do you read the OT?.In there got many prophecies about a Saviour (Jesus) that will come in future, but the book didn't mention his name at all. Then, why the Christian believe that Jesus is the saviour which has been prophesied?.Because Jesus not mentioned at all.The Christians claimed the verses/prophecies in the OT are for Jesus, but the Jews say NO!.

There is a verse in the NT which Muslims claimed it is for Muhammad, but the Christians said no!.The verse is:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, `these' shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. "(John 16:13)

The Christian said it is the Holy Spirit because it is SPIRIT OF TRUTH.But Muslims said NO, according to the verse below:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world"(1 John 4:1)

The verse above explained the true spirit is the true prophet!. So, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is Prophet of TRUTH... And if you see verse John 16:13, the SPIRIT can TALK and SPEAK..therefore the SPIRIT is a PROPHET.

But, as usual, the Christians didn't want to agree about that just like the Jews who rejected Jesus, even though according to Christians, the OT got many prophecies about Jesus.But, for Muslim, no doubt, we accept that Jesus is one of the Messengers and he existed!.
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6)
No, Adam or any others mentioned in the Bible were not non Jews but of the Jewish clan. Muslims are trying to mislead others into believeing so. You wnated to make your point by making fictious stories without any authentication.

My answer:

Ok..see this, about Jonah:

"Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. "(Jonah 1:2)

It is not talking about go to the Jews...but He asked Jonah to go to Nineveh, the place of his people.His people was not Jews, but people of Nineveh.Are you thinking that in the world previously were living by the Jews only?. Then why don't you say your rishis as Jews also?.
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"

[ Last edited by eastrun at 10-4-2007 07:16 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 10-4-2007 07:13 PM

7)
Whoevre said your friend would be punished for your wrong doing? Are you trying to mislead others here of what I said? Very cunning of you to say such. Is this how Islam was spread with lies? I said, I repeat I said your sins would follow your seed. Which means if you escape paying here in this life, you'd still pay it in your next and if you escape that then your seeds [children born from your seed] would pay the price. It is how the karmic law works. You cannot escape without paying for your sins. It is more logical then to punish you here and then get punished in the hereafter.

My answer:
Are you trying to say that when your seeds suffered by your previous wrongdoings, it is not as same as you are blaming others?.Hem...what can I say for a belief that encourage people to blame his or her own seeds for what he/she has done.Why should your seeds pay the price even though it is not his or her mistake?.Karma failed to make a person to responsible with what she/he has done.Is it from God?.I don't think so!.
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8)
How did Mohammed address his followers? Did he use PA system? But now you see Imams suing PA system to address the gathering. This are changes in one's life. During Mohammed's time if someone had to send a messahe to Mohammed they would have to travel hundred of miles by camel and may take days but today a Mufti can send SMS to his people with lies too. Simple exapmle of a inccident that took place in Ipoh. This is no fiction but actual event.

My answer:
Using tabuk, azan and the messenger to spread the message of gathering (for those who lived far away). But the laws of calling the followers for Prayers are still remain the same,but implemented better with technology.The life has changed, but the laws are still there and the same methods are still been used until now.Hek eleh...are you thinking only Muslims are able to spread lies using SMS?.In which world are you living?.Do you think only Muslims got the hand phones?.Stop dreaming!!.
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9)
No, you said Laws and Rituals are the same. You said it and so I replied. Now you realize the difference and admit the mistake indirectly. Laws are laws and rituals are rituals. Law says rape is a sin and must be punished. Ritual says you must throw stones at the four pillars when you are doing your hj but if you are unable to do it is ok as it is not compulsary. Can you understand the difference now?

My answer:
I ask you...what makes the rituals?if it is not laws of religion.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 10-4-2007 07:17 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 11-4-2007 02:37 PM

Reply #209 eastrun's post

by eastrun:
Barney, you should learn more about Islamic laws, before you talk
about it.When did the laws of Islam against women?.You talk about
something you don't know and this is the 1st time I met a stupid
researcher:
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four
(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you
against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death
do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way"(Surah An-Nisa' 4:15)
Did the laws blindly punish the women?.Before punish, you need to
ask the women first whether they commit adultery or not! with four
reliable witnesses.If they do, then punish them.If not?.Then, they will
not be punished.
Where got in the Islamic laws said that women that was raped will be
punished?.Are you crazy.That is why I say, you messed up your brain and
at last you appear as a crazy uncle.

Copy the Code

You refuse to believe what I told you. May be this can shed some lightin your brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5323858.stm

Saudi Kidnap, Rape Victim Faces Lashing for 'Crime' of Being Alone With Man Not Related to Her

Tuesday, March 06, 2007

A 19-year-old Saudi woman who was kidnapped, beaten and gang raped byseven men who then took photos of their victim and threatened to killher, was sentenced under the country's Islamic-based law to 90 lashesfor the "crime" of being alone with a man not related to her.

The woman is appealing to Saudi King Abdullah to intervene in the controversial case.

"I ask the king to consider me as one of his own daughters and havemercy on me and set me free from the 90 lashes," the woman said in anemotional interview published Monday in the Saudi Gazette.

"I was shocked at the verdict. I couldn't believe my ears. Ninetylashes! Ninety lashes!" the woman, identified only as "G," told theEnglish-language newspaper.

Five months after the harsh judgment, her sentence has yet to becarried out, "G" said she waits in fear every day for the phone calltelling her to submit to authorities to carry out her punishment.

Lashes are usually spread over several days. About 50 lashes are given at a time.

The woman's ordeal began a year ago when she was blackmailed intomeeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having arelationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the desert kingdom,according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper.

She met the man at a shopping mall and, after driving off together, theblackmailer's car was stopped by two other cars bearing men wieldingknives and meat cleavers.

During the next three hours, the woman was raped 14 times by her seven captors.

One of the men took pictures of her naked with his mobile phone and threatened to blackmail her with them.

Back at home in a town near the eastern city of Qatif, the young womandid not tell her family of her ordeal. Nor did she inform theauthorities, fearing the rapist would circulate the pictures of hernaked. She also attempted suicide.

Five of the rapists were arrested and given jail terms ranging from 10months to five years. The prosecutor had asked for the death penaltyfor the men.

The Saudi justice ministry, however, said rape could not be provedbecause there were no witnesses and the men had recanted confessionsthey made during interrogation.

The judges, basing their decision on Islamic law, also decided tosentence the woman and her original blackmailer to lashes for beingalone together in his car.
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:
The preface is the summary.It is not telling the whole story.Just
like when you are reading a novel la.When you read the summary, you
only get a small picture of the novel.But you don't know what are the
novel is talking about briefly. By reading summary, you can make your
own mind, but for better understanding, read the whole novel.If the
preface is telling everything, then why should the producer produce the
novel instead of producing the preface ONLY?.

Copy the Code

The example is to tell you that the beginning of Quran would tell what it contains and the rest could be understood easily because Quran is full of repeations. By so and so and so and so and so with the hadith. Why are they trying to proof that it has been authenticated by more then one person? This only happens if it is in doubt and so the Quran was in doubt from day one and so the writers had to mentioned a few names to proof that all these people spoke of the same incident. This is what hapens when you want to make your more authenticated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Can you ask the same thing to them?. Why don't the Christians and
the Jews believe in Vedas?.Why don't they accept the laws of
Hinduism?.Is it because your books are books of fairy tales?.
Muhammad was mentioned by name in the Torah (in Hebrew, the word
Muhammad is Muhammadim), where the translators already translated into
"Altogether lovely". It is in SONG OF SOLOMON.Read the chapter in
Hebrew. If I am not mistaken, the pronunciation is:
Hikkoh mamibtaqim mikulloh Muhammadim zaihdudi,mizaihrai Bainah Jerusalem.

Copy the Code

Look here my friend the Vedas are not claiming anything here nor the Jews or Christians claiming theirs is the continuation of the Vedas. It is Islam whcih claims so and that is why the whole debate is about. So, pelase do not get confused and talk jibrish here. Give your learned knowledge a meaning otherwise it is a waste.

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barney50 · Post time 11-4-2007 03:21 PM

sambungan:

:
Muhammad came to reconfirm, re-correct and re-add the laws that were
brought by Jesus. But Jesus came to fulfill the previous laws
only.Heh...every prophet brought different laws. Like Abraham, during
his period, he brought no law about adultery, but during Moses, Allah
sent down a law that prevent human from commit adultery...which can be
found in the book of Leviticus..why don't you ask the same question to
Moses?.If he wanted to follow the path of the previous messengers, then
why he changed and re-add the laws?.But still we believe that he is a
continuation of previous messengers because there are laws that same as
previous messenger's in the book.Why don't you say that Moses had a
political agenda?.

Copy the Code

Moses was a Jew and chosen by GOD to deliever his people from bondage. Was the Arabs in bondage that GOD chose Mohammed to deliever them from bondage? The Jews ahd no permenant country for Moses to become a politician. He was commanded by GOD to save his people frm the clutches of Pharoah. You need to study the history of the Jews from their onw perspective and not from Muslim scholars.

What I can see here..you are really confused.Before this you agree
that the laws should be changed according to the period, and now, you
twist to the laws of the prophet should be as same as like previous
prophets.It is only Jesus was sent to fulfill the previous laws.other
prophets brought new laws!.

Copy the Code

My, my , my! It was you 3who once said Hindus has no respect for GOD law and keep changing as they like and now you try to twist the facts. Mohammed was a self proclaimed prophet who was not even mentioned in any scriptures nor prophesied in any scriptures of his coming. Muslims had been lied in order to accept Mohammed as their prophet because the Arabs had no othe scriptures nor culture before Islam. It is through Islam that the Arabs learn of culture from the Jews and Christians.
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:
Do you read the OT?.In there got many prophecies about a Saviour
(Jesus) that will come in future, but the book didn't mention his name
at all. Then, why the Christian believe that Jesus is the saviour which
has been prophesied?.Because Jesus not mentioned at all.The Christians
claimed the verses/prophecies in the OT are for Jesus, but the Jews say
NO!.

Copy the Code

The book may not have mentioned his name but angel Gabriel had foretold of his coming to his mother Mary and told her to name him Jesus. Morever Jesus as a boy was educated in the Jewish Torah. But Mohammed was educated in which scripture? He was not foretold in any scripture nor was he educated in any scriptures, so how could GOD proclaim him as prophet? This is all a myth and you believe in myth.

There is a verse in the NT which Muslims claimed it is for Muhammad, but the Christians said no!.The verse is:
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from
himself; but what things soever he shall hear, `these' shall he speak:
and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. "(John 16:13)

Copy the Code

Huh! That is another lie. That verse is not for Mohammed because Mohammed spoke for himself. Have you not read in the hadith that says when Mohammed wanted to marry his adopted son's wife he told GOD had sanction his wish? Prophets cannot be a selfish person but Mohammed was. Hidtory of his life would tell you Mohammed was selfish in many ways.

The Christian said it is the Holy Spirit because it is SPIRIT OF TRUTH.But Muslims said NO, according to the verse below:
"
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the
spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone
out into the world"(1 John 4:1)

Copy the Code

If that is what it means then the spirit that spoke to Mohammed in the cave cannot be accepted as Gabriel. So, now the Quran itself becomes questionable

The verse above explained the true spirit is the true prophet!. So,
the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is Prophet of TRUTH... And if you see verse John
16:13, the SPIRIT can TALK and SPEAK..therefore the SPIRIT is a PROPHET.
But, as usual, the Christians didn't want to agree about that just
like the Jews who rejected Jesus, even though according to Christians,
the OT got many prophecies about Jesus.But, for Muslim, no doubt, we
accept that Jesus is one of the Messengers and he existed!.

Copy the Code

Spirit of Truth is a prophet but was Mohammed a spirit of truth? It is not Muslims who accepted Jesus but Mohammed. Because Mohammed accepted Jesus and so did his followers after him. But Mohammed had a motive in accepting Jesus because he wanted the Christians to accept him as a prophet too. But how could his follwoers know of his motives? They feared him and kissed the ground he walked and so whatever Mohammed said was like word coming from Allah his GOD.
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by eastrun:
Ok..see this, about Jonah:
"Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. "(Jonah 1:2)
It is not talking about go to the Jews...but He asked Jonah to go to
Nineveh, the place of his people.His people was not Jews, but people of
Nineveh.Are you thinking that in the world previously were living by
the Jews only?. Then why don't you say your rishis as Jews also?.

Copy the Code

You just love to change the truth to suite Muslim perception, don't you? Here is the exact verse from the book of Jonah.

God's Command (1:1-2)God commanded Jonah to go to Ninevah and preach tothem about their sinfulness and call them to repentance. This is theonly time in the OT where Israel is commanded to actively pursue theGentiles.

Do you know what it means? Jonah was a Jew and GOD commaned him to go and preach the word of GOD to the people of Nineveh. Please do not lie to cover you lie coz that would make tqo lies.

eastrun · Post time 11-4-2007 08:50 PM

1)
You refuse to believe what I told you. May be this can shed some lightin your brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5323858.stm

Saudi Kidnap, Rape Victim Faces Lashing for 'Crime' of Being Alone With Man Not Related to Her

Tuesday, March 06, 2007

A 19-year-old Saudi woman who was kidnapped, beaten and gang raped byseven men who then took photos of their victim and threatened to killher, was sentenced under the country's Islamic-based law to 90 lashesfor the "crime" of being alone with a man not related to her.

The woman is appealing to Saudi King Abdullah to intervene in the controversial case.

"I ask the king to consider me as one of his own daughters and havemercy on me and set me free from the 90 lashes," the woman said in anemotional interview published Monday in the Saudi Gazette.

"I was shocked at the verdict. I couldn't believe my ears. Ninetylashes! Ninety lashes!" the woman, identified only as "G," told theEnglish-language newspaper.

Five months after the harsh judgment, her sentence has yet to becarried out, "G" said she waits in fear every day for the phone calltelling her to submit to authorities to carry out her punishment.

Lashes are usually spread over several days. About 50 lashes are given at a time.

The woman's ordeal began a year ago when she was blackmailed intomeeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having arelationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the desert kingdom,according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper.

She met the man at a shopping mall and, after driving off together, theblackmailer's car was stopped by two other cars bearing men wieldingknives and meat cleavers.

During the next three hours, the woman was raped 14 times by her seven captors.

One of the men took pictures of her naked with his mobile phone and threatened to blackmail her with them.

Back at home in a town near the eastern city of Qatif, the young womandid not tell her family of her ordeal. Nor did she inform theauthorities, fearing the rapist would circulate the pictures of hernaked. She also attempted suicide.

Five of the rapists were arrested and given jail terms ranging from 10months to five years. The prosecutor had asked for the death penalty for the men.

The Saudi justice ministry, however, said rape could not be provedbecause there were no witnesses and the men had recanted confessionsthey made during interrogation.

The judges, basing their decision on Islamic law, also decided tosentence the woman and her original blackmailer to lashes for beingalone together in his car.

My answer:
I am not asking you to show a story from the tabloid..but I am asking you from the Hadith or The Holy Quran saying that the rapist should be let go and the raped should be punished.Showing an article is not the way to proof it, Barney.Because as you know an article can be created easily.Show me...from Hadith or from the Holy Quran.
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2)
The example is to tell you that the beginning of Quran would tell what it contains and the rest could be understood easily because Quran is full of repeations. By so and so and so and so and so with the hadith. Why are they trying to proof that it has been authenticated by more then one person? This only happens if it is in doubt and so the Quran was in doubt from day one and so the writers had to mentioned a few names to proof that all these people spoke of the same incident. This is what hapens when you want to make your more authenticated.

My answer:

Allah said, the reason He repeated some stories in the Holy Quran:

"And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:89)

If you read the stories or warnings in the Holy Quran, they did repeated by Allah, BUT with different kind of ways (explanations).The reason...to make the human remember the warnings and the moral of the stories, because we need constant reminders in order to make us remember.But unfortunately, even Allah had appeared the warnings and the moral of the stories with different kind of ways, but still got people don't understand what Allah tried to show.That is the reason.

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3)
Look here my friend the Vedas are not claiming anything here nor the Jews or Christians claiming theirs is the continuation of the Vedas. It is Islam whcih claims so and that is why the whole debate is about. So, pelase do not get confused and talk jibrish here. Give your learned knowledge a meaning otherwise it is a waste.

My answer:
Of course la the Vedas not claiming anything because the VEDAS existed long before and incomplete. But it does a continuation for the latest books.By looking at the core teaching..that is worship ONE GOD.It is normal Barney, like I have said before each follower from each religion will never accept what came after them or what came before them.But Islam...the religion that full of tolerance, does tell the followers to believe that the scriptures came from Allah, whether they are distorted or not!.There fore if the Christians or the Jews rejected the Quran and claiming that the Quran is the book of tales, then what can I do?.They are reading the Quran, but they made claims like they have. It is normal.:

"When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:91)

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds."(Surah Yunus 10:37)
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4)
Moses was a Jew and chosen by GOD to deliever his people from bondage. Was the Arabs in bondage that GOD chose Mohammed to deliever them from bondage? The Jews ahd no permenant country for Moses to become a politician. He was commanded by GOD to save his people frm the clutches of Pharoah. You need to study the history of the Jews from their onw perspective and not from Muslim scholars.

My answer:
What do you meant with the word bondage?.I never heard about the word.
Look in the dictionary,,,no such word existed

Our core discussion here was not about whether Moses became a politican or not, but what we discussed is, why every prophet brought different laws.Please read the previous post.Allah sent the prophets to initially to REMIND the peoples,that is the core mission of every prophet. Moses gone through different way in spreading his preaching.

Look at Noah..are you thinking initially he was sent to build an Ark?.No!.He was sent to remind the people.Then, when the peoples rejected him, then Allah asked him to build an Ark because Allah wanted to punish the peoples with flood.So, the core mission is reminding the people.

You no need to tell me about the story of the Moses.Because it is mentioned in the Quran and I know what you said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5)
My, my , my! It was you 3who once said Hindus has no respect for GOD law and keep changing as they like and now you try to twist the facts. Mohammed was a self proclaimed prophet who was not even mentioned in any scriptures nor prophesied in any scriptures of his coming. Muslims had been lied in order to accept Mohammed as their prophet because the Arabs had no othe scriptures nor culture before Islam. It is through Islam that the Arabs learn of culture from the Jews and Christians.

My answer:
Barney, don't twist the fact.Before this I said that Allah sent different laws to different prophets by looking at the surrounding of the period.When did I say that the laws are not changing?.Read my previous posts and I am sure that the viewers also know what I was trying to tell..About Muhammad, I will answer below.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Last edited by eastrun at 11-4-2007 09:35 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 11-4-2007 09:33 PM

6)
The book may not have mentioned his name but angel Gabriel had foretold of his coming to his mother Mary and told her to name him Jesus. Morever Jesus as a boy was educated in the Jewish Torah. But Mohammed was educated in which scripture? He was not foretold in any scripture nor was he educated in any scriptures, so how could GOD proclaim him as prophet? This is all a myth and you believe in myth.

My answer:
You see..the instruction of Gabriel came to Mary in the book of Luke. One of the Books that the Christian believe in.It is not in the book of Torah or book that The Jews believe in.But why Christian said the prophecies are for Jesus?. Because the four books in their hands confirming the prophecies that the Saviour is Jesus. So the Christians are not wrong to say that, because it is in their Books.And the Jews also can be side on the true side because in their scripture, Jesus was not mentioned by name.

Muslims have no doubt to say that Jesus was a clever man and he knows the Torah until he was able to debate with the preacher.Because Allah had taught Him two Scriptures, Torah and Injeel. See this:

"And Allah will teach him the Book (Torah) and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel"
(SURAH AL-IMRAN 3:48)

As I explained to you before, there are prophecies about Muhammad in the Gospel, but just because his name is not in the prophecies, the Christians rejected them...Same like Jews that rejected Jesus just because HIS NAME was not mentioned in the prophecies existed in their book!.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)
Huh! That is another lie. That verse is not for Mohammed because Mohammed spoke for himself. Have you not read in the hadith that says when Mohammed wanted to marry his adopted son's wife he told GOD had sanction his wish? Prophets cannot be a selfish person but Mohammed was. Hidtory of his life would tell you Mohammed was selfish in many ways.

My answer:
Before this do told you to refer the Holy Quran 1st.Let see what Holy Quran said...CONFIRMING the John 16:13:

Compare those two verse:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from
himself; but what things soever he shall hear, `these' shall he speak:and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. "(John 16:13)

"Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:He was taught by one Mighty in Power"(Surah An-Najm 53:2~5)

The Gospel got the prophecy and the Holy Quran confirming it.Like the Torah got the prophecy and the Gospel confirming it.
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8)
If that is what it means then the spirit that spoke to Mohammed in the cave cannot be accepted as Gabriel. So, now the Quran itself becomes questionable

My answer:
Gabriel is an angel and his existence was confirmed by the Gospel. So, why don't you ask the Christians. If the verse talked like what you have claimed, then why they believe the angel that asked Mary to name her son as Jesus is an angel, not as a prophet?.
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9)
Spirit of Truth is a prophet but was Mohammed a spirit of truth? It is not Muslims who accepted Jesus but Mohammed. Because Mohammed accepted Jesus and so did his followers after him. But Mohammed had a motive in accepting Jesus because he wanted the Christians to accept him as a prophet too. But how could his follwoers know of his motives? They feared him and kissed the ground he walked and so whatever Mohammed said was like word coming from Allah his GOD.

My answer:
You said that because you are stubborn to believe him even though the prophecies is there.When a Christian ask a Jew,why they didn't accepted Jesus..SURELY, the answer as same as yours!.Because they will never believe even you come to them with thousands reasons and proofs!.

Muslims accepted Jesus.Not only Jesus, but every prophet existed in the world.If you claimed that Muhammad has hidden motive to the Christians just because he asked the followers to believe in Jesus, then what would you say to the Christians that follow the books that asked them to accept Moses as a prophet?.
Would you say that Jesus and his disciples have hidden motive too?.

We Muslims say...NO. Because Jesus came to confirm Moses and like Muhammad was came to confirm the existence of Jesus";

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:87)
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[ Last edited by eastrun at 11-4-2007 09:37 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 12-4-2007 12:52 AM

Reply #213 eastrun's post

:
I am not asking you to show a story from the tabloid..but I am
asking you from the Hadith or The Holy Quran saying that the rapist
should be let go and the raped should be punished.Showing an article is
not the way to proof it, Barney.Because as you know an article can be
created easily.Show me...from Hadith or from the Holy Quran.

Copy the Code

Simple fact can tell you that the syariah law favours men on rape matter. Don't you know your own Islamic law. The law ask to produce four wittnesess if a women wants o report a rape. But if she could not then she would be charged for illicit sex. This is what is happening in Islamic countries. Those reports are not doctorated but or lies but what had happened to Muslim women aho had been raped by men knwoing how the syariah works. Either you are blind or intentionally do not wish to believe such stories. You are protecting a barbaric law which was formulated by Arab Muslms of the 7th century.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Allah said, the reason He repeated some stories in the Holy Quran:
"And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:89)
If you read the stories or warnings in the Holy Quran, they did
repeated by Allah, BUT with different kind of ways (explanations).The
reason...to make the human remember the warnings and the moral of the
stories, because we need constant reminders in order to make us
remember.But unfortunately, even Allah had appeared the warnings and
the moral of the stories with different kind of ways, but still got
people don't understand what Allah tried to show.That is the reason.

Copy the Code

Such lame excuse for mistakes done by Quran writers. No excuse.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Of course la the Vedas not claiming anything because the VEDAS
existed long before and incomplete. But it does a continuation for the
latest books.By looking at the core teaching..that is worship ONE
GOD.It is normal Barney, like I have said before each follower from
each religion will never accept what came after them or what came
before them.But Islam...the religion that full of tolerance, does tell
the followers to believe that the scriptures came from Allah, whether
they are distorted or not!.There fore if the Christians or the Jews
rejected the Quran and claiming that the Quran is the book of tales,
then what can I do?.They are reading the Quran, but they made claims
like they have. It is normal.:

Copy the Code

That is not the point here my friend. Your claim or Mohammed's claim does not hold water. VEDAS were given in India to Indians. Tora was given to Israelites in the Sinai Desert on the 6th day of Sivan 2448 years after Creation and the Gospel of Jesus was in Jerusalem. Now the question is was the Quran given or composed by Muslim thinkers? To me it was composed on the dictation of Mohammed as per Torah. Reason was obvious. The Arabs including Mohammed's clan were pagans and Mohammed did not like what was going on in the kaaba. He decided to become the first caliph of Mecca and the only way was to create a religious order based of the Jews and Christians. That is the truth no matter what explanation you give.

"
When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath
sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet
they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with
them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone
by, if ye did indeed believe?"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:91)
"
This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other
than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that
went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is
no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds."(Surah Yunus 10:37)

Copy the Code

The verses in the Quran was followed in the style of the Torah. Is that so difficult to replicate?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
What do you meant with the word bondage?.I never heard about the word.
Look in the dictionary,,,no such word existed
Our core discussion here was not about whether Moses became a
politican or not, but what we discussed is, why every prophet brought
different laws.Please read the previous post.Allah sent the prophets to
initially to REMIND the peoples,that is the core mission of every
prophet. Moses gone through different way in spreading his preaching.

Copy the Code

Please look up the dictionary. It means salvery. The Jews were slaves of of Egypt and Pharoah owned them as slaves. Are you not aware of it? Or your Quran does not mention about such historical facts on the bible story?

Look at Noah..are you thinking initially he was sent to build an
Ark?.No!.He was sent to remind the people.Then, when the peoples
rejected him, then Allah asked him to build an Ark because Allah wanted
to punish the peoples with flood.So, the core mission is reminding the
people.
You no need to tell me about the story of the Moses.Because it is mentioned in the Quran and I know what you said.

Copy the Code

I need to because the story of Moses in the Quran is corrupted. In the Torah no mention of Allah but only Yaweh. The name of the Jewish GOD is YHVH and not Allah. The Jews say Allah is not the GOD of the Jewish people Arabs alone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Barney, don't twist the fact.Before this I said that Allah sent
different laws to different prophets by looking at the surrounding of
the period.When did I say that the laws are not changing?.Read my
previous posts and I am sure that the viewers also know what I was
trying to tell..About Muhammad, I will answer below.

Copy the Code

No, you said that we Hindus do not reapect our GOD because we change his laws. But here you said Allah send Mohamemd to change some of the laws. May be during the time of Mohammed he thought the laws before Mohammed were too old and out dated and so gave new laws to Mohammed. Then in the same way these Mohammedan laws need to be changed because it has passed the exoiry date. In a short time that is 600 years after death of Jesus GOD had to send an Arabd to change his lwas again. So what is wrong if the 1400 years laws be changed to fit the period of time. Vast difference between 600 years and 1400 years. So, think about it.

barney50 · Post time 12-4-2007 01:18 AM

Reply #214 eastrun's post

:
You see..the instruction of Gabriel came to Mary in the book of
Luke. One of the Books that the Christian believe in.It is not in the
book of Torah or book that The Jews believe in.But why Christian said
the prophecies are for Jesus?. Because the four books in their hands
confirming the prophecies that the Saviour is Jesus. So the Christians
are not wrong to say that, because it is in their Books.And the Jews
also can be side on the true side because in their scripture, Jesus was
not mentioned by name.[code]
[b] Wrong my friend. The Christians did not have any Gospel before Jesus. It was after Jesus his apostles wrote the Gospel so your claim is wrong and misleading. It was mentioned in the Torah and the Jews were expecting a King and not a carpenters son as their saviour. You need to reall study the Toran and the bible of teh Christians to understand these two religions. Do not refer to Islamic books for them because it would be the Arabs version and not according to the Jews.[/b]
[code]Muslims have no doubt to say that Jesus was a clever man and he
knows the Torah until he was able to debate with the preacher.Because
Allah had taught Him two Scriptures, Torah and Injeel. See this:
"And Allah will teach him the Book (Torah) and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel"
(SURAH AL-IMRAN 3:48)
As I explained to you before, there are prophecies about Muhammad in
the Gospel, but just because his name is not in the prophecies, the
Christians rejected them...Same like Jews that rejected Jesus just
because HIS NAME was not mentioned in the prophecies existed in their
book!.

Copy the Code

[b] Wrong again. The Muslim version lies and contradicts. The gospel was written by his apostles during and after the death of Jesus. Your Islamic version says Allah will teach him the Book (Torah) and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Before this do told you to refer the Holy Quran 1st.Let see what Holy Quran said...CONFIRMING the John 16:13:
Compare those two verse:
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from
himself; but what things soever he shall hear, `these' shall he speak:and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. "(John 16:13)
"
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:He was taught by one Mighty in Power"(Surah An-Najm 53:2~5)
The Gospel got the prophecy and the Holy Quran confirming it.Like the Torah got the prophecy and the Gospel confirming it.

Copy the Code

No, the Torah itself had the prophecy and the Gospel justt quoted what the Torah said. You are a confused Muslims who had taken the verses doctoraed by Muslims of the 1st century of the Muslim era.
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:
Gabriel is an angel and his existence was confirmed by the Gospel.
So, why don't you ask the Christians. If the verse talked like what you
have claimed, then why they believe the angel that asked Mary to name
her son as Jesus is an angel, not as a prophet?.

Copy the Code

Thatis what I said. Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary mother of Jesus who was concieved by the holy spirit. I do not understand your question because you are now confused and speaking jibbrish. Please study my earlier reply well before you make any remarks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
You said that because you are stubborn to believe him even though
the prophecies is there.When a Christian ask a Jew,why they didn't
accepted Jesus..SURELY, the answer as same as yours!.Because they will
never believe even you come to them with thousands reasons and proofs!.

Copy the Code

To accept someone as prophet the scriptures must confirm of his arrival. But in the case of Mohammed no scriptures ahd foretold of Mohammed's comming.

Muslims accepted Jesus.Not only Jesus, but every prophet existed in
the world.If you claimed that Muhammad has hidden motive to the
Christians just because he asked the followers to believe in Jesus,
then what would you say to the Christians that follow the books that
asked them to accept Moses as a prophet?. Would you say that Jesus and his disciples have hidden motive too?.

Copy the Code

That is because it was the linage. What linage did Mohammed had with the Jews? For him to claim that he is the last prophet of the Jews is ridiclues because the Jews are a close knitted clan that would not accept an outsider and they knew the motiff of Mohammed. The Jews woudl not submit to any other race except their own.

We Muslims say...NO. Because Jesus came to confirm Moses and like Muhammad was came to confirm the existence of Jesus";
"
We gave Moses the Book and followed
him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary
Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it
that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves
desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and
others ye slay!"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:87)

Copy the Code

All that is quoted is version of the Arab Muslims and has nothing to do with the Jewish Torah. You cannot argue in this point because it shows your weakness. Better equip yourslef with logical answers otherwise it looks very vague.

eastrun · Post time 12-4-2007 06:42 PM

1)
Simple fact can tell you that the syariah law favours men on rape matter. Don't you know your own Islamic law. The law ask to produce four wittnesess if a women wants o report a rape. But if she could not then she would be charged for illicit sex. This is what is happening in Islamic countries. Those reports are not doctorated but or lies but what had happened to Muslim women aho had been raped by men knwoing how the syariah works. Either you are blind or intentionally do not wish to believe such stories. You are protecting a barbaric law which was formulated by Arab Muslms of the 7th century.

My answer:
You got the verse wrong.I repeat:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four
(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way."(Surah An-Nisa 4:15)

The four witnesses are to proof whether a woman commit adultery or not.The four witnesses are too confirm whether a woman commit adultery or not.Because you cannot simply accuse a woman commit adultery.

Not raped. Commit adultery is by her own desire.Raped is not.Therefore Islam never set that kind of law.If you are raped, surely that the one who find guilty that he has raped the woman will be punished by any laws.You see how blind your heart is.I tell you once again.Islam is not a bad religion like you thought!
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2)
Such lame excuse for mistakes done by Quran writers. No excuse.

My answer:
No excuse. but constant reminder, so that we will always remember.Explained:

"And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:89)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)
That is not the point here my friend. Your claim or Mohammed's claim does not hold water. VEDAS were given in India to Indians. Tora was given to Israelites in the Sinai Desert on the 6th day of Sivan 2448 years after Creation and the Gospel of Jesus was in Jerusalem. Now the question is was the Quran given or composed by Muslim thinkers? To me it was composed on the dictation of Mohammed as per Torah. Reason was obvious. The Arabs including Mohammed's clan were pagans and Mohammed did not like what was going on in the kaaba. He decided to become the first caliph of Mecca and the only way was to create a religious order based of the Jews and Christians. That is the truth no matter what explanation you give.

My answer:
You are not reading the Holy Quran that is why you produced such claim..If the Quran was composed as per the Torah, the content should be as same as the Torah, but no...the content is different.The content of the Quran is more like fulfilling the previous prophecies in the previous books including the Gospels.It is not a problem when Allah gave the scriptures not on a same place.Do you know who created the Baitullah in Mecca?.Not Muhammad, but Abraham which existed long before Moses and Jesus.Long before the Christian.

"And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House
(With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-
Hearing, the All-knowing."(Surah AL-Baqarah 2:127)

Then, how could you say that Muhammad is following the Christians and the Jews ?.He is following his forefather..Abraham. and his son..Ismail. The Bible got the story too..about Abraham  and his wife, Hagar. That is the starting point of the establishment of Kaaba.And the Quran confirming the story. The Christian existed after the crucification of Jesus not before Abraham, so what is practicing in Islam now has nothing to do with Christian and Judaism, even though the core teaching is same.
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4)
The verses in the Quran was followed in the style of the Torah. Is that so difficult to replicate?

My answer:
Oh..really?.The style got slight different even though the QURAN confirming and fulfilling the previous books.Have a read, ok.You will amaze the way Quran explains.
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5)
I need to because the story of Moses in the Quran is corrupted. In the Torah no mention of Allah but only Yaweh. The name of the Jewish GOD is YHVH and not Allah. The Jews say Allah is not the GOD of the Jewish people  Arabs alone.

My answer:
Are you sure it is corrupted.Compare the story first.See how Quran confirming the story and confirming the 9 miracles that Allah has given to him and confirming his fight with the Firaun.Yes, the Jews called God as YHWH,but it presented same God.In Arab, the God called Allah.But, if you open the Bible of Malay and Indonesia, you will see the Word ALLAH is there, For example:

"Pada mulanya Allah menciptakan langit dan bumi."(Kejadian 1:1)

"Yakub menamai tempat di mana Allah telah berfirman kepadanya "Betel".(Kejadian 35:5)

It is all about language, but for same God. And for more clarification, open the Bible in Arabic. God called as Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha)
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6)
No, you said that we Hindus do not reapect our GOD because we change his laws. But here you said Allah send Mohamemd to change some of the laws. May be during the time of Mohammed he thought the laws before Mohammed were too old and out dated and so gave new laws to Mohammed. Then in the same way these Mohammedan laws need to be changed because it has passed the exoiry date.  In a short time that is 600 years after death of Jesus GOD had to send an Arabd to change his lwas again. So what is wrong if the 1400 years laws be changed to fit the period of time. Vast difference between 600 years and 1400 years. So, think about it.

My answer:
Then show me the prophet that ALLAH sent to renew the laws that brought by Muhammad.I have asked you for this for several times.But you failed to prove that to me.Then you make this claim without proper evidence.Even though you don't want to confess that actually I have told you that Allah has sent different laws to different prophets, but still the viewers got eyes and brain to see your game here.A liar will always be a liar.
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[ Last edited by  eastrun at 12-4-2007 07:18 PM ]

eastrun · Post time 12-4-2007 07:14 PM

7)
Wrong my friend. The Christians did not have any Gospel before Jesus. It was after Jesus his apostles wrote the Gospel so your claim is wrong and misleading. It was mentioned in the Torah and the Jews were expecting a King and not a carpenters son as their saviour. You need to reall study the Toran and the bible of teh Christians to understand these two religions. Do not refer to Islamic books for them because it would be the Arabs version and not according to the Jews

My answer:
Did I say that the Gospel existed before Jesus?..No...that is why the Jews do not have faith in it.Read my answer carefully.

Yes, the Torah prophecies a Saviour, but till then, the Saviour still not existed until Jesus was sent .So, no doubt that Jesus is the prophesied Saviour. And not only one prophecies in the Torah that suit with Jesus,but many.That is why no doubt the Saviour is Jesus,And Quran confirming that!.
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8)
Wrong again. The Muslim version lies and contradicts. The gospel was written by his apostles during and after the death of Jesus. Your Islamic version says Allah will teach him the Book (Torah) and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel"

My answer:
You need to open the Holy Quran to see why Allah said he WILL.The verse is for Mary...his mother,when Gabriel was sent to tell her about the prophecies of the Birth of Jesus:

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word
from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this
world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;"

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be
(of the company) of the righteous."

"She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched
me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"

"And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,"

(Surah al-'imran 3:45~48)

So, God teach Jesus after Jesus was given birth.
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9) No, the Torah itself had the prophecy and the Gospel justt quoted what the Torah said. You are a confused Muslims who had taken the verses doctoraed by Muslims of the 1st century of the Muslim era.

My answer:
Yes, the Gospel quoted and giving answer to the prophecies.And same method for Quran.The Gospel create the prophecies and the Holy Quran fulfill and confirming them.
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10)
Thatis what I said. Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary mother of Jesus who was concieved by the holy spirit. I do not understand your question because you are now confused and speaking jibbrish. Please study my earlier reply well before you make any remarks.

My answer:
The one that spoke to Muhammad in the cave is an angel...same angel that has talked to Mary.You really don't understand the verse I quoted before?.The verse is to say that prophet and spirit is same.But But Gabriel not called as prophet ,but angel.Therefore, he is not related with the word spirit in the verse. What is jibbrish?.New word, i think.created by an old man that forgot himself.
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11)
To accept someone as prophet the scriptures must confirm of his arrival. But in the case of Mohammed no scriptures ahd foretold of Mohammed's comming.

My answer:
What I have proven to you before, the prophecies are there...in the Gospel.yES, Quran fulfilled the prophecies. The Gospel just quoted prophecies and the Holy Quran confirming them.SAME like the Torah quoting it, then the Gospel confirming it.
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12)
That is because it was the linage. What linage did Mohammed had with the Jews? For him to claim that he is the last prophet of the Jews is ridiclues because the Jews are a close knitted clan that would not accept an outsider and they knew the motiff of Mohammed. The Jews woudl not submit to any other race except their own.

My answer:
Muhammad not the last prophet of the Jews, but Jesus was the last one.Muhammad is the last prophet for all prophets. Yes, just because he has no lineage with Jews, then the Jews rejected him.But you have to remember that Jesus also was rejected by the Jews and they never accepted Jesus until now, EVEN THOUGH Jesus is in the race.Why?.Because they thought Jesus is a son of incest.So, not only because of lineage, the Jews rejected a prophet.
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13)
All that is quoted is version of the Arab Muslims and has nothing to do with the Jewish Torah. You cannot argue in this point because it shows your weakness. Better equip yourslef with logical answers otherwise it looks very vague.

My answer:
Yes..because the Quran is NOT the copy of the Torah.So, what you have claimed before which saying that Muhammad had copied the Torah is totally wrong.That is why the style is different even though it talks about same thing.And,better you read the Quran first before you say that Quran is the copy of the Torah, otherwise you make yourself look 'empty' with what you have claimed.

[ Last edited by eastrun at 12-4-2007 07:16 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 12-4-2007 07:57 PM

Reply #217 eastrun's post

:
You got the verse wrong.I repeat:
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four
(Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they
testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God
ordain for them some (other) way."(Surah An-Nisa 4:15)

Copy the Code

My dear fellow we are talking about rape of a woman and not adultry. You seem to confused always. Adulrty is a different matter althogather. Tell me about rape. How will a womn in Islam proof that she was raped and what does the syariah law on this matter?

The four witnesses are to proof whether a woman commit adultery or
not.The four witnesses are too confirm whether a woman commit adultery
or not.Because you cannot simply accuse a woman commit adultery.
Not raped. Commit adultery is by her own desire.Raped is not.Therefore
Islam never set that kind of law.If you are raped, surely that the one
who find guilty that he has raped the woman will be punished by any
laws.You see how blind your heart is.I tell you once again.Islam is not
a bad religion like you thought!

Copy the Code

I'm not asking about adultry. Even adultry can be set upon if the husban cand get four of his friends to lie in court. But today under modern law all a husband needs is to proof it by hiring PI's to take intimate pictures of his wife with whoever she is having an affair and that goes to men too who cheat on their wives. See how fair the modern law is compared to Islamic laws. But the matter in discussion is rape and tell me how does a rape victim needs to proof that she was raped according to Islamic law? I want to know. Please quote the verse on this matter.
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:
No excuse. but constant reminder, so that we will always remember.Explained:
"And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of
similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except
with ingratitude!"(Surah Al-Isra' 17:89)

Copy the Code

Suc explanation has no bearing to us.
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:
You are not reading the Holy Quran that is why you produced such
claim..If the Quran was composed as per the Torah, the content should
be as same as the Torah, but no...the content is different.The content
of the Quran is more like fulfilling the previous prophecies in the
previous books including the Gospels.It is not a problem when Allah
gave the scriptures not on a same place.Do you know who created the
Baitullah in Mecca?.Not Muhammad, but Abraham which existed long before
Moses and Jesus.Long before the Christian.

Copy the Code

Abraham was a prophet of the Jews and he spoke fo rthe Jews and not anyone outside the Jewish clan. The contens of the Quran ahs quotes from the bible and Torah which proves that it wanted to be part of the Jewish faith. Allah is not the Jewish GOD because the Jews has a name for their GOD and that is YHWH. So, if Muslims claim that Allah is the same as YHWH is not a confirmation but to delude the Jews and Christians.

"And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House
(With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-
Hearing, the All-knowing."(Surah AL-Baqarah 2:127)

Copy the Code

There is no record in the Jewish scripture that kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismail. It is the claim of the Muslims.

Then, how could you say that Muhammad is following the Christians and
the Jews ?.He is following his forefather..Abraham. and his
son..Ismail. The Bible got the story too..about Abraham and his wife,
Hagar. That is the starting point of the establishment of Kaaba.And the
Quran confirming the story. The Christian existed after the
crucification of Jesus not before Abraham, so what is practicing in
Islam now has nothing to do with Christian and Judaism, even though the
core teaching is same.

Copy the Code

Harga, for your information was a slave of Abraham who conceived when Sarah could not have a baby. But when Sarah became pregnant with a child Abraham drove off Hagar and her son into the desert. She wondered in the desert for many years. Read about that in the Jewish bible.
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:
Oh..really?.The style got slight different even though the QURAN
confirming and fulfilling the previous books.Have a read, ok.You will
amaze the way Quran explains.

Copy the Code

The style is diferent because it was written in poetic style by Persian and Arabic poets of the 8th century. Nothing difficult when you already have a scripture of the Jews in hand. Morever you msut remember that Khatija's cousin was a Christian who had a bible and from that too the Quranic verse could be replicated. Please do not misjudge our intelligence
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:
Are you sure it is corrupted.Compare the story first.See how Quran
confirming the story and confirming the 9 miracles that Allah has given
to him and confirming his fight with the Firaun.Yes, the Jews called
God as YHWH,but it presented same God.In Arab, the God called
Allah.But, if you open the Bible of Malay and Indonesia, you will see
the Word ALLAH is there, For example:
"Pada mulanya Allah menciptakan langit dan bumi."(Kejadian 1:1)
"Yakub menamai tempat di mana Allah telah berfirman kepadanya "Betel".(Kejadian 35:5)
It is all about language, but for same God. And for more clarification,
open the Bible in Arabic. God called as Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha)

Copy the Code

Sure you can calim as such but the Jews do not think so because their messiah had yet to come and for Christians after Jesus they are still expecting his return at the original place of his birth and not Mohammed who was born in Mecca. Sure I too can create a new religion and say it is the continuation of the Jewish and Christian faith butthey would not accept it because how could a Jewish GOD pick an Indian for messiah for the Jews or Christians. So, Muslims can claim all they want but for the last 1400 years you could not convience the Jews or Christians and so they became your enemies.
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:

Then show me the prophet that ALLAH sent to renew the laws that brought

by Muhammad.I have asked you for this for several times.But you failed

to prove that to me.Then you make this claim without proper

evidence.Even though you don't want to confess that actually I have

told you that Allah has sent different laws to different prophets, but

still the viewers got eyes and brain to see your game here.A liar will

always be a liar.
Copy the Code

When our religious laws needed to be changed its GOD that would incarnate on earth in the form of man. He did that in the last Yuga and that was in the form of Krishna and gave us Gita. He had promised to return from yuga to yuga and we are expecting HIM to return at the end of Kali Yuga in the form of Kalki. But ofcourse we would not be here in this form to see HIM because that is a few hundred thousand years left for HIS return. But in between we have many divine souls who have come to confirm the Gita and that is our inspiration and guide to our life. We know GOD is All Mighty and Omnipresent who could do anything if HE wishes and we have no power to question HIS motiff. When we see a divine soul we know that our religion is forever save and the law of Karma is at work. GOD is observes and would only intervene when it is time for HIM to do so. HE does not punish you nor would cure you to hellfire. HE is All Forgiving and Mercifull at the same time watch over us because HE knows we remember HIM always through our prayer offered to HIM at the temples and homes. So, why do you think we need to confirm to your faith?

[ Last edited by barney50 at 12-4-2007 09:46 PM ]

barney50 · Post time 12-4-2007 09:49 PM

Sambungan

by eastrun:
Did I say that the Gospel existed before Jesus?..No...that is why the Jews do not have faith in it.Read my answer carefully.
Yes, the Torah prophecies a Saviour, but till then, the Saviour still not existed until Jesus was sent .So, no doubt that Jesus is the prophesied Saviour. And not only one prophecies in the Torah that suit with Jesus,but many.That is why no doubt the Saviour is Jesus,And Quran confirming that!.

Copy the Code

No, the Quran was made to confrim by Mohammed so that Christians would accept Islam as their new religion after Christianity. This was a ploy to net the Christians when Jews refused to accept Mohammed. Come on, surely you can see the motiff of his claim.
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by eastrun:
You need to open the Holy Quran to see why Allah said he WILL.The verse is for Mary...his mother,when Gabriel was sent to tell her about the prophecies of the Birth of Jesus:
"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word
from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this
world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;"
"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be
(of the company) of the righteous."
"She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched
me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"
"And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,"
(Surah al-'imran 3:45~48)
So, God teach Jesus after Jesus was given birth.

Copy the Code

Wrong my friend! The Gospel does not say that GOD had asked Mary to name him Christ Jesus. Looks like Muslim writers made a serious error here. Gabriel only asked Mary to name him Jesus and the Christ came later. That is the problem when you make other's religion as part of yours when you have not studied fully about its origin and Arab Musilms fail to do that. Or may be they wanted to make something of their own to proof they are right. Sorry me dear fellow, bad copy.
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by eastrun:
Yes, the Gospel quoted and giving answer to the prophecies.And same method for Quran.The Gospel create the prophecies and the Holy Quran fulfill and confirming them.

Copy the Code

Well, that is your claim but not the Jews or Christians.
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by eastrun:
The one that spoke to Muhammad in the cave is an angel...same angel that has talked to Mary.You really don't understand the verse I quoted before?.The verse is to say that prophet and spirit is same.But But Gabriel not called as prophet ,but angel.Therefore, he is not related with the word spirit in the verse. What is jibbrish?.New word, i think.created by an old man that forgot himself.

Copy the Code

How can you confirm that it was the same angel? It is the word of Mohammed and him alone. Morever he said it was a dream. Mohammed was asleep in the cave when he dreamt of such incident. Whereas when Gabriel spoke to Mary she was awake and aware of the voice. That is why I say you need to go deep when you want to study anything related to religion. Always put the question why? how? for what?. Only by such you could realy get to the truth.

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by eastrun:
What I have proven to you before, the prophecies are there...in the Gospel.yES, Quran fulfilled the prophecies. The Gospel just quoted prophecies and the Holy Quran confirming them.SAME like the Torah quoting it, then the Gospel confirming it.

Copy the Code

My dear fellow the Quran did not exist before Mohammed so how can it confirm? Use logic when dealing with such matters. Quran only existed after Mohammed began to have dreams and said he received messages from Gabriel. Before that there was no Quran so how could it confirm? We are living in the 21st century and not the 7th century to accept anything told by Muslims.
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by eastrun:
Muhammad not the last prophet of the Jews, but Jesus was the last one.Muhammad is the last prophet for all prophets. Yes, just because he has no lineage with Jews, then the Jews rejected him.But you have to remember that Jesus also was rejected by the Jews and they never accepted Jesus until now, EVEN THOUGH Jesus is in the race.Why?.Because they thought Jesus is a son of incest.So, not only because of lineage, the Jews rejected a prophet.

Copy the Code

Rejecting or accepting Jesus as their messiah was the prerogative of the Jews. But for Mohammed to claim as their prophet was rediclues and malicious. Mohammed thought that he could gain more by doing so or whatever reason he had at the time to claim as suh.
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by eastrun:
Yes..because the Quran is NOT the copy of the Torah.So, what you have claimed before which saying that Muhammad had copied the Torah is totally wrong.That is why the style is different even though it talks about same thing.And,better you read the Quran first before you say that Quran is the copy of the Torah, otherwise you make yourself look 'empty' with what you have claimed

Copy the Code

The style may be different because the person who had the task to compile the Quran wanted it look as authentic from the Arabic view point and so hired Arab and Persian poets to replicate the Torah abd the bible. Nothing strange or unique about it.