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mashimaru83 posted on 10-4-2013 07:40 PM 
Again another cherry-pick activity. You want to use the 'burning their own place of worship' as ... Again another cherry-pick activity. You want to use the 'burning their own place of worship' as the criteria to judge Islam. Remember what I said earlier, you only choose example that works for you but ignore the one that doesn't work for you. You did it again here. Instead of cherry-pick, I suggest you bring forward the criteria in choosing the correct faith. You haven't done properly since so many posts.
thats show how islam all about...is not pick cherry or blue berry or black berry u know..is fact...
u muslims going around telling the whole nations that islam is peace ...how could be peace when ur own umat burning mosques???
when kafir burn ur mosques...u muslims do riot.....how this justify???
Last edited by Truth.8 on 10-4-2013 11:54 PM
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Truth.8 posted on 10-4-2013 11:50 PM
God cannot die...why cannot?
HIS love to humans and Yesus came to participate in earth to sh ... Truth.8:
God cannot die...why cannot? wkk5159:
Of course God won't die, it is just a symbolic death. When Jesus was crucified, he resurrected 3 days later, he conquered DEATH so that whoever believe in Him will have everlasting LIFE.
I'm quoting you and @wkk5159 post. Even the fundamental criteria of a God has different says among the Jesus Christ followers. It looks like I have to give different answer to both of you. @Truth.8, God has no beginning and has no end. If you say God has an end, then the thinking of God has beginnig start to emerge. Think about this, God creates death and if God can die then he himself is subject to his own creation. It creates more problem. Remember, God is absolute and is independent of anything.
Truth.8:
thats show how islam all about...is not pick cherry or blue berry or black berry u know..is fact...
u muslims going around telling the whole nations that islam is peace ...how could be peace when ur own umat burning mosques???
when kafir burn ur mosques...u muslims do riot.....how this justify???
Again another obvious cherry-pick. I highlighted tha 'all' word to make it clear. You take example from bad muslims and say that is how Islam is all about.
1) How can you say 'all' even though they are still good Muslims around the world.
2) Why cherry-pick against Islam? There are also bad people from other faiths/religions.
Last edited by mashimaru83 on 11-4-2013 07:19 AM
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mashimaru83 posted on 11-4-2013 07:06 AM
I'm quoting you and @wkk5159 post. Even the fundamental criteria of a God has different says a ...
What Truth is trying to say is Jesus " appears to have died " when he was cruficied . He then resurrected 3 days later.
The key word here; Jesus Christ was crucified and he resurrected 3 days later" Me and Truth and any Christians have no problem on this common ground.
So when i said, "God won't die and it was only a symbolic death" has no conflict with Truth saying; " why can't God died" ( God incarnated in human flesh of course !) has no conflict at all with what i said.
Let me ask you a simple question; Does God eat ?
Don't pick on the obscure wording used when replying to you.
Christianity = Jesus Christ + Resurrection, the ultimate theme of Bible !
Judaism = Christianity - (Jesus Christ + Resurrection).
Islam = Christianity + Jesus Christ - Resurrection. ( Though Quran has virtually no teaching of Jesus and even the contents of Old Testament are vastly modified ! )
Last edited by wkk5159 on 11-4-2013 08:07 AM
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There are many medical records of human beings who had confirmed to have died by a medical doctor; No pulse and heart beat, no brain wave ~ brain death.....but miraculously rose from the death during their funeral.
Mashimaru, the question here, do you consider these people as dead people or alive ??? |
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wkk5159 posted on 10-4-2013 10:34 PM
Of course God won't die, it is just a symbolic death. When Jesus was crucified, he resurrected 3 d ...
wkk5159:
Of course God won't die, it is just a symbolic death. When Jesus was crucified, he resurrected 3 days later, he conquered DEATH so that whoever believe in Him will have everlasting LIFE.
Crucification and resurrection of Jesus has it's significance unparallel in any other religion.
Of course muslims don't believe in crucification and resurrection of Jesus Christ and this is what set Christianity and Islam apart as crucification and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the tenet of Christianity.
You want to be resurrected on Judgement Day ? And live everlastingly after that ???
Yes indeed, everyone want to live everlastingly after the Judgement Day but in order to do so, one need to be in the right path/faith. So it all goes back to the fundamental question: Which faith is the right path, Christian, Hindu, Islam, or others? The only way to answer this question is to look at the evidents that contain the teaching of each faith (The Bible, Al-Quran and Hindu scriptures). The evident itself must prove or give the criterias to show that it is from the God else no one can know which one is the truth.
The criteria for Al-Quran has been given. Al-Quran 11:13, 2:23, 10:38. Note that this criteria is not coming from me.
If I remember correctly, you only put Biblical verse to prove that Jesus is God. Please bring the criteria from the Bible itself which can be used to prove that Bible is the word of God.
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wkk5159 posted on 11-4-2013 07:52 AM
What Truth is trying to say is Jesus " appears to have died " when he was cruficied . He then resu ... wkk5159:
What Truth is trying to say is Jesus " appears to have died " when he was cruficied . He then resurrected 3 days later.
The key word here; Jesus Christ was crucified and he resurrected 3 days later" Me and Truth and any Christians have no problem on this common ground.
So when i said, "God won't die and it was only a symbolic death" has no conflict with Truth saying; " why can't God died" ( God incarnated in human flesh of course !) has no conflict at all with what i said.
wkk5159:
Let me ask you a simple question; Does God eat ?
wkk5159:
Don't pick on the obscure wording used when replying to you.
wkk5159:
There are many medical records of human beings who had confirmed to have died by a medical doctor; No pulse and heart beat, no brain wave ~ brain death.....but miraculously rose from the death during their funeral.
Mashimaru, the question here, do you consider these people as dead people or alive ???
Last edited by mashimaru83 on 11-4-2013 08:44 AM
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mashimaru83 posted on 11-4-2013 08:14 AM
There is no reason for God to conquer death. God created death after all.
Yes indeed, everyon ...
"There is no reason for God to conquer death. God created death after all."
No, you are wrong, God didn't create death. That's another fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam.
It wasn't God intention to see human being perish when He created the fisrt humans, Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden(earth). God intention and purpose for human being is everlasting life.
God gave Adam and Eve free will to obey or not to obey Him. Unfortunately our ancestors chose to betray Him. Death only enter human being realm when our ancestors Adam & Eve chose to betray God, listen to and deceived by Satan. They took the Forbidden fruit in defiance of God......BUT
God don't forsake His people. That's why ; "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "(John 3:16)......this of course can only be appreciated if you understand Triune God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit !
Have you wonder why Jesus is called the last Adam in Bible ?? (Genesis 2-3 and 1 Corinthians 15:20)
The purpose of Last Adam is to restore the everlasting life which we originally had as a free priviledge from God just as the First Adam. He created us to inherit the earth forever....not death ! Death only associated with Satan !
Last edited by wkk5159 on 11-4-2013 05:33 PM
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mashimaru83 posted on 11-4-2013 08:29 AM
"Appears to have died" means does not actually die; so God didn't die for human being? What is thi ...
"If we (human) use the 'No pulse and heart beat, no brain wave ~ brain death' as the criteria to define death then I consider that as dead people."
So, you are agreed that dead people is someone who cannot rise up, walk, talk and etc....the definition of ultimate death is; 1. Rigor Mortis, 2. Decomposition set in once all the physiological function ceased !
Then, if Jesus rise up 3 days after he had been crucified.......do you consider he died before. He sure not conforming to the criterias i mentioned above.
Historically, no one can recovered Jesus boby because he had been ascended to Heaven( even Islam believe this minus crucifiction !).
Now, can we all still say that Christians believe their God died ???
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wkk5159 posted on 11-4-2013 12:18 PM
"There is no reason for God to conquer death. God created death after all."
No, you are wrong, ...
You have posted Christianity views of Jesus which differ then the Islamic view. Both cannot be correct at the same time. To resolve this issue one has to look at the source or evident of the statement which in this case the Bible and Al-Quran. One has to prove which of these books are the absolute truth. In order to do so, the book itself should provide the necessary criteria to prove that it is from the God so that one can use this criteria to test the book.
The criteria for Al-Quran has been given. Al-Quran 11:13, 2:23, 10:38.
Please bring the criteria from the Bible. Remember, what I'm looking for is the criteria to show that Bible is the words of God and not Jesus is God.
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mashimaru83 posted on 11-4-2013 04:52 PM
You have posted Christianity views of Jesus which differ then the Islamic view. Both cannot be c ...
How could you take the criteria from Quran to prove that Quran is really word of God ???
It is not a independent source as it is from Quran.
What you try to say is just like a criminal defending himself by refering the jurists to the evidences gathered by the criminal himself which favour him.
That's why i said in the very beginning that it is futile to prove the divine inspiration of your scripture as there is no neutral way or method to achieve this.
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wkk5159 posted on 11-4-2013 05:03 PM
How could you take the criteria from Quran to prove that Quran is really word of God ???
It is ...
The criteria mentioned inside Al-Quran is independent.
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mashimaru83 posted on 11-4-2013 05:11 PM
The criteria mentioned inside Al-Quran is independent.
How you can use something from Quran to prove something not other than Quran itself and you call it independent ???
Do you use your cerebrum in your reasoning ???
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wkk5159 posted on 11-4-2013 05:24 PM
How you can use something from Quran to prove something not other than Quran itself and you call i ...
Erk.. I don't know why I replied with so simple sentence. Too excited I guess... Now, allow me to show you how my cerebrum works.
wkk5159:
How could you take the criteria from Quran to prove that Quran is really word of God ???
It is not a independent source as it is from Quran.
What you try to say is just like a criminal defending himself by refering the jurists to the evidences gathered by the criminal himself which favour him.
That's why i said in the very beginning that it is futile to prove the divine inspiration of your scripture as there is no neutral way or method to achieve this.
How you can use something from Quran to prove something not other than Quran itself and you call it independent ???
Do you use your cerebrum in your reasoning ???
Person A is accused for a murder case. In defending himself, he says "You need to show that I was at the murder scene when the murder was taking place". See that the criteria itself is valid and can be used to prove his guiltiness, it's no longer about the independency of the criteria. (Note that you can use other criterias as you wish in this example). Nevertheless Person A must pass this criteria to win the case.
Another example:
Person B is accused for copying other book. In defending himself, he says "Bring that other book so that we can compare". Again the criteria itself is valid and logical. Rejecting the criteria just because it's coming from Person B is simply illogical. The same goes for the criteria given in the Al-Quran. Al-Quran independently defending itself when it was accused as human made.
The reason God put this criteria in his book is so that human being can use this criteria to choose the correct path since both of Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Jesus (peace be upon them) are not around to testify each book.
wkk5159:
That's why i said in the very beginning that it is futile to prove the divine inspiration of your scripture as there is no neutral way or method to achieve this.
Last edited by mashimaru83 on 11-4-2013 08:06 PM
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Ever heard of the term internal auditing and external auditing.
When you use your own criteria in proving your claim that your Quran is from God, it is a good example of internal auditing.
It can only convince your own fellow muslims but it can never convince the outsiders unless external auditing is carried out.
Like i said before, those criteria you mentioned don't prove anything at all.
When i said "in the very beginning that it is futile to prove the divine inspiration of your scripture as there is no neutral way or method to achieve this" got nothing to do with what you said;" that God is incapable of conveying his message to human being."
God will still able to convey his message to his creation regardless whether we can or can't prove the existence of Him !
Good example is in ancient time people will still be able to inhale in oxygen eventhough they never see or know the oxygen.
Have muslims see their God before ??? Never......it subject to doubt by logic mind.
Have Christians see their God before ??? Yes, in the form of Son, the God Man Jesus Christ Himself. He walks and talks with His disciples and His disciples are the testimonies to his very real existence.
What is the criteria i used in proving that Bible is word of God ? If you really paying attention, the points i put forward are far stronger case than the so called criteria you mentioned.......still remember the amazing chronology of the Bible??? The awe inspiring and precise fulfillment of prophecies relating to Jesus Christ ???
But still, we are both being subjective here.....neither can be objective and impartial.
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wkk5159 posted on 11-4-2013 10:14 PM
Ever heard of the term internal auditing and external auditing.
When you use your own criteria i ... wkk5159:
Ever heard of the term internal auditing and external auditing.
When you use your own criteria in proving your claim that your Quran is from God, it is a good example of internal auditing.
It can only convince your own fellow muslims but it can never convince the outsiders unless external auditing is carried out.
Like i said before, those criteria you mentioned don't prove anything at all.
It doesn't matter if it is internal auditing or external auditing. Those are just words to represent whether the audit is internal or external. Note that being internal or external does not make thing right or wrong, you still need to prove what is right and what is wrong. I would like to emphasis again, the criteria from Al-Quran given before is not my own criteria. I have never made such claim. The verse clearly asks the outsiders to prove that Al-Quran is human made in order to prove their claim. The challenge is open to everyone; so may I know what do you mean by internal/external here?
wkk5159:
When i said "in the very beginning that it is futile to prove the divine inspiration of your scripture as there is no neutral way or method to achieve this" got nothing to do with what you said;" that God is incapable of conveying his message to human being."
God will still able to convey his message to his creation regardless whether we can or can't prove the existence of Him !
I'm not talking about the existence of God.
If God doesn't give the criteria to determine which one (The Bible, Al-Quran) is the word of God, then we are in lost. No one can know the absolute truth. This is illogical from God's part which is impossible. If you insist that the criteria doesn't exist or cannot be used, then that clearly shows that you are suggesting that God is incapable of showing human being a proper way to choose the absolute truth.
wkk5159:
Good example is in ancient time people will still be able to inhale in oxygen eventhough they never see or know the oxygen.
Have muslims see their God before ??? Never......it subject to doubt by logic mind.
Have Christians see their God before ??? Yes, in the form of Son, the God Man Jesus Christ Himself. He walks and talks with His disciples and His disciples are the testimonies to his very real existence.
Again I'm not questioning about the existence of God here.
wkk5159:
What is the criteria i used in proving that Bible is word of God ? If you really paying attention, the points i put forward are far stronger case than the so called criteria you mentioned.......still remember the amazing chronology of the Bible??? The awe inspiring and precise fulfillment of prophecies relating to Jesus Christ ???
But still, we are both being subjective here.....neither can be objective and impartial.
Allow me to show you how subjective your points/evidents/criterias are.
1) Amazing chronology of the Bible.
The muslims can come along and mention about the amazing chronology of the Al-Quran. Ops, we have two amazing books, which one is the book of God? A christian might say Bible is more amazing than Al-Quran, so the Bible is the actual word of God. But, wait a minute... how much is this 'more amazing' is? On what scale/metrics are we talking about? That is what I meant by being subjective.
2) The awe inspiring and precise fulfillment of prophecies relating to Jesus Christ ???
The muslims can come along and mentioned about the fulfillment of prophecies in Al-Quran. Ops, we have two books that show fulfillment of prophecies. Like above, I don't think this criteria is useful.
Unlike Al-Quran criteria, which has a clear objective: Bring/find a book that has been written that like of Al-Quran if you believe Al-Quran is human made.
Last edited by mashimaru83 on 11-4-2013 11:54 PM
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Which one is word of God ??? That's why i said me and you have been subjective and neither can be impartial here.
But it appears to me that you have difficulty in understanding the very meaning of subjective and impartial here.
The point here is not looking for your own criteria to support your own worth but more importantly to determine the very nature of a true God. What is the point you prove that your scripture is really inspired by a supernatural being, not God but Satan ???? And thus it is really the word of Satan not God ???
Without proving the existence of God(of course the true nature of God), it is pointless for you to even make such claim as criteria from your own scripture to prove its worth.
What is the difference between so called criteria from the scripture itself and the examples i had quoted ??? The very fact of the amazing chronology of Bible( of course this has to supported by facts) and even the prophecies of Jesus Christ have make a stronger case as compare to the criterias from the scrtpture itself to support such claim. I'm not talking about Holy Scripture only, even any man made philosophy can come out with fantastic criteria to support its worth with all the preconceived indoctrination.
If you insist on the criteria itself, then let's take a good example of Ali Sina, an ex-muslim himself, he has put forward challenge to muslims worldwide on faithfreedom.org to refute his charge on Islam that Islam has all the criterias to be a evil faith, with a reward of US50,000 for those who manage to refute his claims but until today there is not a single muslim even come close to overturn his claims. Does it mean that Islam is really like what ex-muslim Ali Sina is charging ??? Ali Sina was an ex-muslim who grew up in Iran and his knowledge of Quran is second to none. He sure know what is the criteria from the Quran itself to prove its own worth.
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Until now muslims cannot explain:
Adam was made from clay...from his clay we are his generations...
Jesus was in a womb of women without any intercourse.... both Bible and Quran confirmed such...
Why ?? who is he???? why special ???
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wkk5159 posted on 12-4-2013 08:16 AM
Which one is word of God ??? That's why i said me and you have been subjective and neither can be im ...
wkk5159:
Which one is word of God ??? That's why i said me and you have been subjective and neither can be impartial here.
But it appears to me that you have difficulty in understanding the very meaning of subjective and impartial here.
wkk5159:
The point here is not looking for your own criteria to support your own worth but more importantly to determine the very nature of a true God. What is the point you prove that your scripture is really inspired by a supernatural being, not God but Satan ???? And thus it is really the word of Satan not God ???
Without proving the existence of God(of course the true nature of God), it is pointless for you to even make such claim as criteria from your own scripture to prove its worth.
Again we are not discussing about the existence of God - we are both not Atheists. Where are you heading to with proving the existence of God?
wkk5159:
What is the difference between so called criteria from the scripture itself and the examples i had quoted ??? The very fact of the amazing chronology of Bible( of course this has to supported by facts) and even the prophecies of Jesus Christ have make a stronger case as compare to the criterias from the scrtpture itself to support such claim. I'm not talking about Holy Scripture only, even any man made philosophy can come out with fantastic criteria to support its worth with all the preconceived indoctrination.
See your "stronger case" . How stronger is stronger? That is purely subjective!
wkk5159:
If you insist on the criteria itself, then let's take a good example of Ali Sina, an ex-muslim himself, he has put forward challenge to muslims worldwide on faithfreedom.org to refute his charge on Islam that Islam has all the criterias to be a evil faith, with a reward of US50,000 for those who manage to refute his claims but until today there is not a single muslim even come close to overturn his claims. Does it mean that Islam is really like what ex-muslim Ali Sina is charging ??? Ali Sina was an ex-muslim who grew up in Iran and his knowledge of Quran is second to none. He sure know what is the criteria from the Quran itself to prove its own worth.
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mashimaru83 posted on 12-4-2013 11:25 AM
You are making subjective statement against the criteria. You only came up with internal/externa ...
"Just because the criteria is coming from the Book itself, that doesn't mean that the criteria is subjective."
Yes, you completely miss the point here, it is subjective and not independent if it is from the book itself or any opinions & philosophies which will alter your subsequent judgement. It's very obvious that you simply don't know what is subjective and impartial here.
We both believe in God BUT..... Do we believe in the same God ???
Like few post ago you mentioned about Quranic Allah which created DEATH which is totally different from the fundamental belief of Christianity.....
Biblical God only create lives and associated with resurrection and everlasting life.
For Christians, death is only associated with Lucifer, the fallen Arch Angel or Satan !
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Do not blame others for the missing 'T' in 'FAIH'... |
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Author
Post time 11-4-2013 07:06 AM
