Taurat and Injil during Muhammad's time

albatross

Can any Muslims answer this? During Muhammad's time, did the Jews and Christians have the Taurat and Injil?

I hope this thread stays on topic. thanks.

sam1528

Can any Muslims answer this? During Muhammad's time, did the Jews and Christians have the Taurat and Injil?

I hope this thread stays on topic. thanks.

The answer is no. The torah was corrupted and the Injeel was no longer preserved (instead we have the 4 books of the Gospel and the letters written by Paul).

Corruption means that the original pristine Word Of God was/is mixed by the words of man.

Does this answer your question?

albatross

sam1528 posted on 20-11-2014 06:28 PM
The answer is no. The torah was corrupted and the Injeel was no longer preserved (instead we have  ...

thanks for answering. although I have a question regarding verse 7:157:

"Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them." (7:157)

what is "with them"? What is the author referring to when he mentioned the Taurat and Injil that is "with them" in this verse? the corrupt, or uncorrupt Taurat and Injil?

sam1528

albatross posted on 20-11-2014 10:04 PM
thanks for answering. although I have a question regarding verse 7:157:

"Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them." (7:157)

what is "with them"? What is the author referring to when he mentioned the Taurat and Injil that is "with them" in this verse? the corrupt, or uncorrupt Taurat and Injil?

'With them'? That means the book that they had with them.

Muslims position is that such prophecies happen to remain preserved and found and found their way into the Bible despite it being corrupted.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 12:31 PM
'With them'? That means the book that they had with them.

Muslims position is that such prophec ...

So, are you saying that in that verse, Allah is referring to the corrupted text of the Jews as "THE Taurat" and the corrupted text of the Christians as "THE Injil"?

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 02:45 PM
So, are you saying that in that verse, Allah is referring to the corrupted text of the Jews as "THE Taurat" and the corrupted text of the Christians as "THE Injil"?

Whether it has been corrupted or not , the revelation to Prophet Moosa(a) and Prophet Eesa(as) was/is the Taurat and the Injeel.

The Quran is referring to the said revelation

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 05:23 PM
Whether it has been corrupted or not , the revelation to Prophet Moosa(a) and Prophet Eesa(as) was ...

yes, that's what I was asking. the quran said that what was "WITH THEM" was "THE Taurat" and "THE Injil". Now, is Allah, calling by name, "THE Taurat", to a corrupt book?

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 05:25 PM
yes, that's what I was asking. the quran said that what was "WITH THEM" was "THE Taurat" and "THE Injil". Now, is Allah, calling by name, "THE Taurat", to a corrupt book?

Allah calling the Tawrat a corrupt book? It can easily be understood that Allah stated that the documented Tawrat has been corrupted.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 05:28 PM
Allah calling the Tawrat a corrupt book? It can easily be understood that Allah stated that the do ...

Friend, I am asking you this. Allah, as Muslims believe, called the book "WITH THEM", as "THE Taurat". So if the book "with them" is corrupt, then are you saying that Allah is calling a corrupt book as "THE Taurat"?

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 05:33 PM
Friend, I am asking you this. Allah, as Muslims believe, called the book "WITH THEM", as "THE Taurat". So if the book "with them" is corrupt, then are you saying that Allah is calling a corrupt book as "THE Taurat"?

I am answering you. Tawrat is the revelation to Prophet Moosa(as). It is the documented Tawrat that has been corrupted. However it is still called the Tawrat.

The phrase 'with them' - what is your understanding. Is it the book with
(a) the Israelites
(b) the muslims
(c) Allah

Which one is it?

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 05:40 PM
I am answering you. Tawrat is the revelation to Prophet Moosa(as). It is the documented Tawrat tha ...

So you are saying that a corruption of the Tawrat is also called by Allah as "THE Tawrat"? Note the definite article "the" ("Al" in Arabic")

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 05:43 PM
So you are saying that a corruption of the Tawrat is also called by Allah as "THE Tawrat"? Note the definite article "the" ("Al" in Arabic")

What is the issue with definate article? There was / is only 1 Tawrat in documented form. Therefore can be termed being 'the Tawrat'.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 05:48 PM
What is the issue with definate article? There was / is only 1 Tawrat in documented form. Therefor ...

In grammar, when someone uses a definite article in front of an object, it refers to the actual thing. when the author writes "THE taurat", then it refers to the actual Taurat itself. but now you are telling me that no, the taurat during the time of Muhammad is not the actual taurat, but a corrupted version of it. If the author of the Quran believed this, he wouldn't refer to the text during his time as "THE taurat" or "THE Injil", as this would mean that the actual taurat and the actual Injil was in their presence.

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 05:54 PM
In grammar, when someone uses a definite article in front of an object, it refers to the actual thing. when the author writes "THE taurat", then it refers to the actual Taurat itself. but now you are telling me that no, the taurat during the time of Muhammad is not the actual taurat, but a corrupted version of it. If the author of the Quran believed this, he wouldn't refer to the text during his time as "THE taurat" or "THE Injil", as this would mean that the actual taurat and the actual Injil was in their presence.

Might not be. The definate article in front of a noun in this case means that we know exactly what we are referring as there is only one.

Your argument is centered on you having the misunderstanding of what is definate article. It doesn't mean the actual thing.

BTW , what is the actual thing in this case? It is the documented Tawrat that has been corrupted. The actual thing is not the original thing

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 06:02 PM
Might not be. The definate article in front of a noun in this case means that we know exactly what ...

So Allah here is asking Christians to judge by a corrupt book?

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. (5:47)

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 06:06 PM
So Allah here is asking Christians to judge by a corrupt book?

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. (5:47)

Now you are jumping to another issue , Quran5:47

Refer to my underlined.

Judgement is with regards to revelation.

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 06:10 PM
Now you are jumping to another issue , Quran5:47

Refer to my underlined.

So tell us, what does Allah tell Christians to judge by in this verse? The Injil, or something else?

albatross

sam1528 posted on 21-11-2014 06:02 PM
BTW , what is the actual thing in this case? It is the documented Tawrat that has been corrupted. The actual thing is not the original thing.

The actual "Tawrat" is the Tawrat that is brought down to Moses. This is what normal people would understand when the phrase "THE Tawrat" is said. Not a corrupt book. When you compare the two: the actual Tawrat brought down to Moses, or the corrupted Tawrat, which has more precedence of being referred to as "THE Tawrat"?

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 06:14 PM
So tell us, what does Allah tell Christians to judge by in this verse? The Injil, or something els ...

I though the verse is very clear. It is the Injeel which has been revealed (to Prophet Eesa(as)). I did underlined the pertinent part of the verse for you.

sam1528

albatross posted on 21-11-2014 06:24 PM
The actual "Tawrat" is the Tawrat that is brought down to Moses. This is what normal people would understand when the phrase "THE Tawrat" is said. Not a corrupt book. When you compare the two: the actual Tawrat brought down to Moses, or the corrupted Tawrat, which has more precedence of being referred to as "THE Tawrat"?

Would it not be the original Tawrat instead of the actual Tawrat?

The 'actual Tawrat' is what you now have in your hands. Big difference from the original Tawrat.

Normal people would understand that definate article means that we know what we are referring to , meaning the Tawrat we currently have.

Your argument is based on the colloquial term 'actual' to mean 'original' .... actually this aaah or actually that aaah

You cannot take the formality of a language convert it to the colloquial language and argue your case.