Questions on English Grammar

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by dexa at 4/12/07 09:19 PM


2. She has never heard of.
She has never been heard of.

3. She was being knocked down by a bus.
She was knocked down by a bus.

Hi there. Do you mind explaining why these are wrong answers?

2) She was never heard of.

3) She was being knocked down by a bus.

I think these are passive voice sentences too, just different tense. Right?
Let me know. Thanks.

[ Last edited by  dexa at 22-4-2007 03:01 PM ]

dexa

Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 13-4-2007 01:30 PM


Hi there. Do you mind explaining why these are wrong answers?

2) She was never heard of.

3) She was being knocked down by a bus.

I think these are passive voice sentences too, just  ...

thanks bd for the question -
i am not so sure how to explain the answer
sometimes i can explain it easier than other times --

for #2 - She was never heard of -
what was she never heard of -
the 'was never' is not suitable there -
cuz in this context - was  - described the verb happened to 'her' - -
eg :   she was scolded by her father
she was happy

therefore in this sentence we using passive voice - has been
*note that  passive voice must have ' has been'  have been'   
not just has or  have *

and since the sentence that you need to modify :
she has never heard of -
what you've gotto do is adding the 'been'  thus,
it become a grammatically correct passive voice sentence


now,  let's look at these passive voice
(cuz it is a passive voice sentence)

Passive constructions are easy to spot; look for a form of "to be"
(is, are, am , was, were, has been, have been, had been, will be,
will have been, being) followed by a past participle.
(The past participle is a form of the verb often, but not always,
ending in "-ed." Some exceptions to the "-ed" rule are words like "paid"
and "driven.") Here's a sure-fire formula for identifying the passive voice:

form of "to be" + past participle = passive voice


*the passive voice is marked by a form of "to be" + the past participle--
not a form of "have" alone + the past participle, as some students believe.
So don't let the combination of "have" and "to be" fool you.

note  - that if we can - we try to avoid using passive voice in
our sentence, whilst it is not grammatically error, it is still not advisable
although in some cases it was okay to use

So when is it OK to use the passive?

1. To emphasize an object.

X number of votes are required to pass the bill.

2. To de-emphasize an unknown subject/actor.

Over 120 different contaminants have been dumped into the river


Summary of Strategies

Identify

Look for the passive voice: "to be" + a past participle (usually, but not always, ending in "-ed")
If you don't see both components, move on.

Evaluate

Is the doer/actor indicated? Should you indicate him/her/it?
Does it really matter who's responsible for the action?
Would your reader ask you to clarify a sentence because of an issue related to your use of the passive?
Do you use a passive construction in your thesis statement?
Do you use the passive as a crutch in summarizing a plot or history, in describing something?
Do you want to emphasize the object?

Revise

Switch the sentence around to make the subject and actor one: Put the doer in front of the verb.


hope it helps a bit


*if any forum members can come up with some ideas as well -
feel free to post in here  -
so that we all can take an advantage in learning them as well -

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by dexa at 4/13/07 03:06 PM

*note that  passive voice must have ' has been'  have been'   
not just has or  have *

I don't think that's entirely correct though. As I mentioned before, the differrence between "She was never heard of" and "She has never been heard of" are tenses, but both could be passive (I didn't know what the tenses are called then). Now I found this:

http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/passiv_saetze.htm

So from that table,

"She was never heard of" (simple past)
"She has never been heard of" (present perfect)

and both should belong to Passive column.

Let's switch the sentences to active form, and add I as the person who did the verb.

"I never heard of her" (simple past)
"I have never heard of her" (present perfect)

And your example too, "She was scolded by her father", would be a passive simple past. While "She has been scolded by her father" would be be a passive present perfect. On the other hand, "Her father scolded her", would be an active simple past, while "Her father has scolded her" would be an active passive present perfect.

I could be wrong though. But I have to go home now, just finished work. I'll read what you wrote some more later tonight. Thanks for the response though.

[ Last edited by  BeanDiesel at 13-4-2007 08:06 PM ]

dexa

She was never heard of" (simple past}

This is a passive voice that should be avoided
cuz the subject is never been described -

she was never heard of -
i feel the sentence is imcomplete and not very clear -

and the active voice -
i never heard of her  -- u can see the subject I
*u can't see the I in the ( she was never heard of)


whilst for she never been heard of   
is a sentence itself means -  i never heard of her -
or we never heard of her
or they never heard of her


* i am not sure if i make it clear
but i shall try again -
in later post -

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by dexa at 4/13/07 10:24 PM


This is a passive voice that should be avoided
cuz the subject is never been described -

she was never heard of -
i feel the sentence is imcomplete and not very clear -

and the activ ...

:hmm:
It did occur to me that the sentence "she was never heard of" may be less commonly used as compared to "she has never been heard of". That's why we easily associate the doer of "she has never been heard of" with anybody. But the sentence doesn't have to tell us a whole lot to be grammatically correct, right?

Both "She has never been heard of" and "She was never heard of" are not telling us who's doer of the verb. A quote from Purdue University Online Writing Lab "assive voice makes sense when the agent         performing the action is obvious, unimportant, or unknown or when a writer         wishes to postpone mentioning the agent until the last part of the sentence         or to avoid mentioning the agent at all. The passive voice is effective         in such circumstances because it highlights the action and what is acted         upon rather than the agent performing the action."
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/print/grammar/g_actpass.html

So in this case, what's important is what was done onto her at some point in the past (simple past), or what has been done onto her (present perfect), by somebody we choose not to mention.

So I still think that their differences are merely tenses, while still being passive sentences. What do you think? Anybody else has something to share? We sure could use more ideas.

dexa

Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 14-4-2007 04:04 PM


:hmm:
It did occur to me that the sentence "she was never heard of" may be less commonly used as compared to "she has never been heard of". That's why we easily associate ...

a good point actually - thanks -

let's see here - how we can differentiate more -

Passive Voice

Construction of the Passive Voice
The structure of the passive voice is very simple:

subject + auxiliary verb (be) + main verb (past participle)

The main verb is always in its past participle form.

Use of the Passive Voice
We use the passive when:

- we want to make the active object more important
- we do not know the active subject

Note that we always use by to introduce the passive object (Fish are eaten by cats).

Look at this sentence:
He was killed with a gun.
Normally we use by to introduce the passive object. But the gun is not the active subject.
The gun did not kill him. He was killed by somebody with a gun. In the active voice, it would be:
Somebody killed him with a gun. The gun is the instrument. Somebody is the "agent" or "doer".


i like that example.  interesting to find out of such various ways to construct sentences -

and look at here -- the one we discussed -

Conjugation for the Passive Voice
We can form the passive in any tense. In fact, conjugation of verbs in the
passive tense is rather easy, as the main verb is always in past participle form
and the auxiliary verb is always be. To form the required tense, we conjugate
the auxiliary verb. So, for example:

present simple: It is made
present continuous: It is being made
present perfect: It has been made

infinitive		to be washed
simple	present	It is washed.
	past	It was washed.
	future	It will be washed.
	conditional	It would be washed.
continuous	present	It is being washed.
	past	It was being washed.
	future	It will be being washed.
	conditional	It would be being washed.
perfect simple	present	It has been washed.
	past	It had been washed.
	future	It will have been washed.
	conditional	It would have been washed.
perfect continuous	present	It has been being washed.
	past	It had been being washed.
	future	It will have been being washed.
	conditional	It would have been being washed.

therefore - i still can't see - she was never heard of  
can be a correct sentence -

perhaps u can help  to find out whether was can be used before never
or is  it has / have -

thanks

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by dexa at 4/14/07 04:41 AM
perhaps u can help  to find out whether was can be used before never
or is  it has / have -

Ok, I think we both agree that "She was heard" is correct right? It's whether we always have to use has/have before 'never' is the question now isn't it?
:hmm: I know that people say "was never" in everyday conversation, but I don't know if it's actually grammatically correct. I'll look it up though.

BeanDiesel

oh before I continue perhaps we should discuss this in a different thread. I know people join this quiz to learn, and we sure can learn something from this discussion. But I don't want to make people wait for another quiz.

Ok here's what I found out. I have yet to find some grammatical rule on the use of "never" in simple past. But here are a few example sentences on the use of 'never' in simple past (better yet, these are passive voice sentences) by people/organization that should be using perfect grammar (they'd better do).

British Council
"She was never thought of as a good actress at school."
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/as01.html

2004 Harvard University Trollope Prize winning essay
"揌e went smash,

dexa

if we are talking about the trivia
and why i need it to be corrected
then the answer you gave was wrong

cuz the one you need to fix was
just add the word been

although 'she was never heard of'
is grammatically correct
but the question -
she has never heard of  <<< fix that one -

thus, u need to add 'been'

hope that one clear though -


and thank you for all your examples
they were awesome -

and should we have more  we can discuss in this thread

BeanDiesel

oh ok. so the reason is that we're not allowed to change the tense, not that the answer was grammatically wrong, right?

dexa

Originally posted by BeanDiesel at 16-4-2007 07:59 AM
oh ok. so the reason is that we're not allowed to change the tense, not that the answer was grammatically wrong, right?

correct.

when the questions asking us to fix the sentence -
in a lot of cases - we have to follow the tenses of the sentences
unless the questions stated otherwise -

errr...if i may say something here....


this particular thread is especially for mod dexa n mod beandiesel to dicuss the english grammar... is it..??
just asking...coz i'm new here....
  

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by ian_hamzah at 4/16/07 07:44 AM
errr...if i may say something here....


this particular thread is especially for mod dexa n mod beandiesel to dicuss the english grammar... is it..??
just asking...coz i'm new here.... ...

no. you can participate if you want, in fact, I'd really appreciate it. It started as a response to the quiz in that english quiz thread, but I think you can post any question on english grammar here.

dexa

anyone can contribute in this thread -

it is for everybody - to discuss any problems
re - english grammar -

the more the merrier -

beandiesel has a lots of ideas and can help us to
improve our english language -

thanks bd -

juwaini

Which one is more suitable to use? :
1) other people
2) other person

BeanDiesel

question on the quiz.

16. I __________ long when the alarm went off.
hadn't been sleeping

why is "had been sleeping" a wrong answer? To me both are grammatically correct, aren't they?

dexa

sometimes it is not only for grammatically correct
when you answer the test
but it is also for the common sense --

the sentence -- sort of like a complaint -
no one wanna talk about they been sleeping too long
when the alarm went off
but they will talk about hadn't been sleeping long enough
when the alarm went off

thus, hadn't been sleeping is the correct answer -

dexa

Originally posted by juwaini at 19-4-2007 09:42 PM
Which one is more suitable to use? :
1) other people
2) other person

u should give me the context --
but  generally we are using 'other people'


thanks

BeanDiesel

Originally posted by dexa at 4/20/07 10:46 PM

the sentence -- sort of like a complaint -
no one wanna talk about they been sleeping too long
when the alarm went off
but they will talk about hadn't been sleeping long enough
when the alarm went off

I don't think we have to think about what most people have problem with. If a person is sleepy and tired, he could the sentence (negative form) to describe what happened when he woke up. If a person is wide awake and energetic, he could be using the sentence (positive form) to tell others how everything is good in his day. Since we are not given enough clue on the intended tone of the sentence, I think it's correct to assume either one of it.

Let's see how the sentence could work in either situation.


Q: Did you have trouble waking up this morning, considering we had to set our clock one hour ahead last night for daylight saving time?

A1: I totally forgot about it. I hadn't been sleeping long when thealarm went off this morning. Good thing is my alarm clock reset thetime automatically for daylight saving time. But I sure wish I had moresleep.

or

A2: I didn't have much to do last night so I went to bed pretty early. I had been sleeping long when the alarm went off this morning. So waking up was a breeze.


To me, there's nothing out of common sense about either situation.

dexa

Q: Did you have trouble waking up this morning, considering we had to set our clock one hour ahead last night for daylight saving time?

A1: I totally forgot about it. I hadn't been sleeping long when the alarm went off this morning

that's what mostly what the conversation go thru --
you not gonna go and tell people about how you had sleeping too long
when the alarm went off --

there's absolutely no reason for it -- ; you got enough sleep
that's fine  

but when you didn't get a good sleep - then you will tell your friend about
how you hadn't sleeping too long  when the alarm went off -

anyway --  i might not explain this answer very well -
especially my english still suck anyway and i am still learning to improve it
from time to time --


no one has to agree with my reason and take a face value of the
answers that i gave -

i have no doubt that all  those answers are correct  but
should you disagree with my reason and convince that particular
answer of yours is correct
then that's fine - really -
i wont dispute you.

i appreciate your explanation and your views in this -