Is Quran the word of GOD

barney50

i212,

Yeh! That is what you could come up with that I do not understand. I asked you a question and you reply that I do not undrstand. Looks like you being a Muslim seem to have difficulty in swallowing the truth. I gave you authentic comment from Islamic websites but you cannot give me an answer because you know what it means. Muslims are divided in undrstanding when the quran was written and when it was compiled. You just accept what one Ullmah or Ustaz had thought you to believe but when you find out that there are too mnay different version you have difficulty in accepting the truth.

So, you have no alternative but to say I do not understand. No wonder we find problem in the teaching too.

i212

Ok barney50...
Did you read until end of the page from link that you gave?

its says

The Holy Qur'an was compiled during the lifetime of Rasulollah (S).  Rasulollah (S) ordered Imam Ali (AS) to compile the Qur'an according to the structure and order that was specified by Allah Almighty.  When the compilation of the Qur'an as a whole was completed, Rasulollah (S) verified its content and order personally.  The Qur'an we have today is the same as that which was verified by Rasulollah (S); nothing more and nothing less.  For more details see the book The Qur'an: When was it compiled? by the Supreme Religious Authority Ayatollah al-慤dhma al-Imam al-Sayyid Muhammad Shirazi.


So thats mean, whatever history from Shia or others, the content of Quran nowadays are authentically SAME. No argument on that.
So... what worries about story that people tell when you know its come from one source and authentic.


Thats why  I said

Barney have dificulty to understand facts, I guess

barney50

i212,

What does this tell you?

3.The Quran Compiled by Imam Ali (AS)

There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran. There are a great number of traditions from Sunni and Shia which states that after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF), Imam Ali sat down in his house and said that he had sworn an oath that he would not put on his outdoor clothes or leave his house until he collects together the Quran.

One says the Quran was compiled during the life of Mohammed but the above says otherwsie. Why the contradiction?

i212

by Barney
One says the Quran was compiled during the life of Mohammed but the above says otherwsie. Why the contradiction?

Need to ask you something.
Is that statement valid or not?

All people know that Imam Ali sat down inside his house and dont come out.
Is anyone know what his doing?

If he collect the Quran, it must be same as what Abu Bakr have collected.


One more thing,
Earlier its narrated by shia's imam that Imam Ali compiled the Quran in lifetime of Prophet Muhammad.
Is the compilation in form of One Book? or just in separate paper or on something with number on it.


And another thing.
The contradiction come from both Shia's Scholars and of course they will make Imam Ali as the first compiler of Quran instead of Abu Bkr and Uthman due to their politic different.


So.. the conclusion is,
Whoever collected and compiled the Quran is not an Issue when all the story already stated that the Quran we use todays are the SAME.
Its become an issue for people that cannot really think or people that have some disturbance in their behaviour.

barney50

1. responded by i212:So.. the conclusion is,
   
2. Whoever collected and compiled the Quran is not an Issue when all the story already stated that the Quran we use todays are the SAME.
   
3. Its become an issue for people that cannot really think or people that have some disturbance in their behaviour.

Copy the Code

Yes, it is an issue. There is no truth to who compiled the Quran. If there is no truth to it and Muslims are divied in their opinion than what assurance is there that the verses in the Quran are not altered? What  authentication is there that these verses were in fact composed by man and not GOD. This question will arise when there are contradiction in statemenst of Muslim scholars who are divided in their opinion of who compiled the Quran. But followers of Islam do not see this truth but blindly accept everything told by their Ullamas who are paid by the religious body to convience Muslims inot believeing everything dished out as tue Islam. Care to explain?

i212

by Barney50
Yes, it is an issue. There is no truth to who compiled the Quran. If there is no truth to it and Muslims are divied in their opinion than what assurance is there that the verses in the Quran are not altered? What  authentication is there that these verses were in fact composed by man and not GOD. This question will arise when there are contradiction in statemenst of Muslim scholars who are divided in their opinion of who compiled the Quran. But followers of Islam do not see this truth but blindly accept everything told by their Ullamas who are paid by the religious body to convience Muslims inot believeing everything dished out as tue Islam. Care to explain?

Barney50,
Actually, its not an issue. Its only a story from different Scholars.
When we read that wrtiting from Shia side, they will say Imam Ali compiled it.
When we read from Sunnah or other side, they said it compiled by Abu Bakr and become one Book during Uthmaniah Empire.

And when you read at last remark, they all say that the Quran that muslim have now are the SAME and NOT EVEN HAVE DIFFERENT.

So... its up to you to believe who's writing. The main thing is the Quran still the SAME.

The keyword here are SAME

If all the Scholars say that the Quran are SAME, then any argument of who compile it first is not an Issue.

Its become an issue by you because you have some prejudice on Islam. So, you will make anything become what you desire needs.

============================================

remizati

Barney50
if u try to find the right way to know islam and al-quran
please find the right place and right person..
the understand in here is..al-quran is our guideline..including hadiths...
i believe if u analize al -quran...arrangement basis and  the word arrangement..its really beyond human expectation...just open ur heart and eyes....

barney50

i212,
Do you think the Quran is all the same all over the world without any difference in sentence or the core meaning?

If so please explain these from various translators.

By M.H. Shakir 67:17  Or are you secure of those in the heaven that He should not send down upon you a punishment? Then shall you know how was My warning.

By YUSUFALI 067:017 Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning?

Shakir says punishment while Yusuf Ali says punishment. So, there is a difference and yet you claim the Quran is the same all over and though it was as original as it is now. Is it a way to delude others thinking no one will look deep inside. We are in the 21st century and surely we have to scrutinize otherwise are are only bllind followers.

i212

by Barney50
Shakir says punishment while Yusuf Ali says punishment. So, there is a difference and yet you claim the Quran is the same all over and though it was as original as it is now. Is it a way to delude others thinking no one will look deep inside. We are in the 21st century and surely we have to scrutinize otherwise are are only bllind followers.

Its the translation version. Why dont you read the Arabic version. Is it different?

This is my translation version.
Sura 67:17
Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning?  

And the way of the arabic version cite  are like below.

Am amintum man fee alssama-i an yursila AAalaykum hasiban fasataAAlamoona kayfa natheeri  



Andto analyze the sura you have gave.

By M.H. Shakir 67:17  Or are you secure of those in the heaven that He should not send down upon you a punishment? Then shall you know how was My warning.

By YUSUFALI 067:017 Or do ye feel secure that He Who is in Heaven will not send against you a violent tornado (with showers of stones), so that ye shall know how (terrible) was My warning?


1)punishment <-- Punishment
2)violent tornado (with showers of stones) <-- type of disaster that can be a punishment.

so 1 and 2 are the same only that (1) not derive the punishment but (2) derive it.

And my translation violent whirlwind also a punishment.


There is know different.

barney50

i212,

If it is the same all over the world why differ in the punishment. Your Arabic Quran says violent whirlwind[color] while M.H. Shakir translation says just punishment[color]
Then you have YUSUFALI's translation which says violent tornado (with showers of stones)[color]. With addition of showers of stone.

So, now we have three different version of punishment. Now is it not contradictory? May it is not for you but it is form me. You claimed it does not differe even the slightest but see the different punishment set out by the one same Quran. Well, you can turn a blind eye but I cannot because I expect all to be the same. If one says whip the other translation too must say whip and not cane. That is what I call authentic.

[ Last edited by  barney50 at 12-1-2007 08:15 PM ]

i212

Barney50,
Do you understand what I say.
I said that all the verse you gave are TRANSLATION.
If you want to check the authenticacy, Then read ARABIC VERSION.
You ask 2 or more Muslim that can read arabic (Al-quran) to recite to you  that verse. Is they read different or not?

by Barney50
Then you have YUSUFALI's translation which says violent tornado (with showers of stones)[color]. With addition of showers of stone.

Ermm.. Barney50.. Do you watch Discovery channel or NatGeo?
When tornado comes? what will follow 'it'?
And how the movement of the tornado? Its circulate right? its like what inside you washing machine.

whirlwind = A more or less vertical column of air whirling around itself as it moves over the surface of Earth.

So... its just a Nouns that represent the great Punishment via wind.

one more thing...statement inside the bracket are like the detailed or additional info that writer have think.

[ Last edited by  i212 at 13-1-2007 11:21 AM ]

barney50

i212,

For you information GOD do not punish human beings but human beings themselves bring upon them this disaster. GOD created a world so beautiful for all living beings but man as usual being too greedy wanted more and more of this world. He invented machines that will destroy forest, drain out the oil from deep ocean and depth of the earth for his own use and use chemical to invent bombs and test it be firing inot the athmosphere. Rape the forest and drive away other forms of life that GOD created and these creatures are made homeless and all these are called bad karma.

So, by creating the inbalance man created the tornados and whirl wind that could destroy whan man had created. The thinning of the ozon layer contributes to global warming and melting of the ice in northpole creates overflow of the sea onto land and this result in lost of lives.

So, please do not put the blame on GOD and say HE punishes man. GOD is merciful and all forgiving but never would HE punish HIS children. That is because HE knows that where you do you pay the price and that is what is happening to us now. If you cannot realize that than I'm sorry to say that you are living in ignorance.

i212

Actually barney,
I never blame God about what happen to earth.

There are already warning not to do mischief on earth.
Punishment are already stated for who are ignore.

So... whatever happen now are because Human-self.
I as a muslim not even said God so cruel or something if anything happen to me. I wil asking for His forgiveness for my past sin.

Yes, I know God are the most-compasionate and oft-forgiving.
And as a "Father" to human being (as a Child), He have give some boundaries to human so that they can live properly.

And when the tresspass these boundaries, they will be punished.

Its not an act of cruelty but an Act to REMIND His Children.

I agree with you that people nowadays too greedy and its lead to self destruction.

So.. whatever happen nowadays are Punishment from God and you need to know, Its NOT AN ACT OF CRUELTY, but AN ACT OF REMINDING His Creation.

Actually, Im not living in ignorance, i live in logic and reality.
Combine LOGIC and REALITY, you will get SANITY.

barney50

i212,

It is what you are told to believe but as far as I'm concern it is what I'm allowed to explore. And to me GOD is not what Muslims think so to be. To me GOD is the creator and HE had made man the ruler of this world and gave man the freedom of freewill as to how he wish to set his life. The cause of effect is what we call karma and GOD made so that you are responsible for your own action. Like if I have sex with a woman than she will become pregnant and a child would be born. So this is my own action and it is my responsibility to act accordingly.

GOD did not instruct me to do so but I did it on my own accord and I'm responsible for my onw action. And if I do not marry her she will bear a fatherless child and that child will be a curse of the society and it becomes a chin reaction along the path of my life and that is the bad karma I have accumilated. Can you understand that?

i212

And barney...

So... the Karma are same as Punishment.

Good Karma and Bad Karma comes to people that doing things.

Punishment also comes to people that doing things.

So... our concept are same Barney whether you realize or not.

You if have bad day, you may think you have done some bad thing in your present or past live. Its you bad Karma.

Me if  have bad Day, i may think thats because of my past sin in my life.

Can you see the logic and reality?

barney50

i2i1,

But Muslims are not suppose to believe in past or present karma. That would mean shirik. Muslims believe in hereafter which could be hell or haven. That is the choice Muslims have to make but what we believe in karma is what we are today is the result of our past action and what we do today will determine the next life. So Karma is always linked with reincarnation which the teachigs of Islam does not accept.

barney50

Here is a good moral story which I think you would like.

"What Color Was The Dog?"
Why Muslims are in such a dire state today
Author Unknown

Once there was a community of Muslims who were small in number yet large in iman and strong in action. So much so that, the kufaar [non-believers] could not defeat them in battle even though they had the Muslims out numbered.

One day a young man from the kufaar pretended to enter into Islam and he went to the big sheik [learned man] in one part of the city and listened to his teaching of the Quran. The subject happened to be on the chapter of the Quran called Al Kahaf (the Cave, #18].

When the sheik completed his talk he offered a chance for the brothers present to ask some questions. When it came the turn of the kafar, he asked the sheik the question:

揝ir, in the story of the 憇leepers

ussopp

barney, if it about the color, then it will not have big impact...

the God still the only ONE...

no different...

if you see the differences in Islam, it has nothing to do with God...

and the Quran is always "terpelihara"...

and plus,there is no such people claiming they know about something like color of the dog in that surah...  no need to panjang cerita about that...

barney50

ussopp,

My dear friend you did not get the moral of the story. Weather such story existed or not but there is a moral in the story and it was told by a Muslim. So, what you are saying is whoever told the story was stupid? Well, than your comment fits the story.

loona

Originally posted by barney50 at 13-1-2007 01:21 PM
Here is a good moral story which I think you would like.

"What Color Was The Dog?"
Why Muslims are in such a dire state today
Author Unknown

Once there was a community of Muslim ...

The story might be fiction..but it is "true" in a muslim situation nowadays. This is a good example of a strory that we should take seriously, esp on the petty issue such as "color"牋as being described in the story. The enemy will take advantage of this situation and just tune it a little to boost the issue. Good example is in Iraq situation where muslims kill and bomb muslims..same with Fatah and Hamas issue. The real enemy, the US is laughing all the way since they played with the issue very well.

Locally, the situation is quite similar with PAS and UMNO ulamak during 5 years ago regarding praying with 2 imams, 2 mosques/suraus, cant attend kenduri, divorce case, however, luckily the situation now isnt as bad as it used to be.

The problems is the "LEADER", "ULAMAK", that arent full aware of what thet are saying, might be due to political motive to put the fire on certains followers. And part of the problems also are due to lack of education and exposure of what's happening outside their world, what's happening outside their religion. what's inside the religion globally.

[ Last edited by  loona at 14-1-2007 05:16 PM ]