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Originally posted by Robotech at 4-1-2007 08:00 PM
A prophet or a Nabi was sent by God to convey God's message to a specific nation or people. However, prophet Muhammad pbuh is to convey God' mesage to humankind.
Sure, there would be prophet ...
Yeah...it is true...Muhammad is for the whole world. Read this:
"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not. " (Surah Saba:28) |
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Not true mister. You are making wild claims again. (of Jews diaspora)
Why did most Jewish of European & American nationality prefers their adopted homel;and as compared to Israel ... tell me please?
You adopt arab names right? You adopt Arabic words into your vocab right?
You pray in Arabic right? You bow towards mecca right?
My name consisted of Arabic & Turkish names. Nope, Turks aren't Arabs. Not all Malay-Muslims names sounded Arab. Some sounded purely Malay origin, or even Wetern sounded names. Some even have fancier names, that have no meanings in Arabic.
Take a look at Indonesian Muslims. Their names are mostly pure Indonesian origin.
Why do we pray in Arabic? Because Al-Quran language is Arabic in nature. Why Arabic language? Despite Muslims of every ethnicities with different cultures & languages, the Arabic language that we used in our daily prayers & reading Quran i ONE unifying factor to ALL Muslims of ONE FAITH, ONE UMMAH that served ONE GOD.
Malaysian language are unique that it bnorrows heavily from Sanskrit, even Wetern language from Portuegese & Dutch & some loan words from English during modern era. You need to learn on Malay lingusitic.
Mecca is where ALL Muslims faced during prayer. Again, the unifying factor. |
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1) Why Ishmael and his mom were kicked, while Isaac with Abraham and Sarah remained in Holy Land.
2) Why Ishmael's descendants vecame pagans while Isaacs remained monotheists.
3) Why God firts signed covenant with Isaac - youngest son and not with Ishmael - oldest.
1. Ishmael & Hagar (Ismail & Siti Hajar) were sent by Abraham to remote Arabian Peninsular by Abraham by God's order, despite Abraham's misgivings, he followed God's word to the letter. Hagar, a pious wife, didn't quetion her husband, nor questioned God's order.
2. Isaac's descendant (the Jewish tribes) worshipped calfs & idols by the time of Moses era. As for Ishmael descendants, theough countless generation, returned by to paganim, but a small monothiesthic faith known as the Hanif (that worship One God) survived. Of Hanif adherents, they become amongst the 1st Muslims after Muhammad call to Islam.
3. It is up to God. God works in mysterious ways. As Isaac descendants pawned many great prophets the likes of Solomon, David, Moses up to Jesus ... it is God's will through Ishmael descendants, Muhammad to finally become the last prophet.
Allah is Most Knowleadgable. |
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Originally posted by Robotech at 4-1-2007 08:35 PM
1. Ishmael & Hagar (Ismail & Siti Hajar) were sent by Abraham to remote Arabian Peninsular by Abraham by God's order, despite Abraham's misgivings, he followed God's word to the letter. Hagar, a pious wife, didn't quetion her husband, nor questioned God's order.
Wrong, the Quran did not say that at all. Robo is too imaginative.
Ismail got out of Abraham's house because he was not the legitimate heir of abraham's line.
According to Robo's logic, allah sent ismail out and turned his decendents into pagans for kicks. How silly!
2. Isaac's descendant (the Jewish tribes) worshipped calfs & idols by the time of Moses era. As for Ishmael descendants, theough countless generation, returned by to paganim, but a small monothiesthic faith known as the Hanif (that worship One God) survived. Of Hanif adherents, they become amongst the 1st Muslims after Muhammad call to Islam.
Descendents of Ismail worshiped many many idols and over a long period of time.
As for the golden calf, the first complete worship was not even finished before Moses put a stop to it and the Hebrews remnained faithful and even build a Tabenacle for God after that.
3. It is up to God. God works in mysterious ways. As Isaac descendants pawned many great prophets the likes of Solomon, David, Moses up to Jesus ... it is God's will through Ishmael descendants, Muhammad to finally become the last prophet.
Allah is Most Knowleadgable.
Your allah has no logic. Full of nosence. so much nonsence even you cannot explain, just simply allah knows but nobody knows talk.
cheers |
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Wrong, the Quran did not say that at all. Robo is too imaginative.
Ismail got out of Abraham's house because he was not the legitimate heir of abraham's line.
According to Robo's logic, allah sent ismail out and turned his decendents into pagans for kicks. How silly!
That's your prerogative. Ismail & Siti Hajar was sent to Mecca, which is situated in Arabian Peninsular. Check your atlas, or use Google Earth!
How about this, Isaac descendants become slaves to Pharaoh for generations, thanks to Moses & Aaron who led them to freedom, those tribes started worshiping Golden Calf Idol. How is that for kicks, eh?
Descendents of Ismail worshiped many many idols and over a long period of time.
As for the golden calf, the first complete worship was not even finished before Moses put a stop to it and the Hebrews remnained faithful and even build a Tabenacle for God after that.
Yeah, along the way, they strayed again & again. Countless prophets & messengers were sent to them by God, they remain faithful for awhile & then strayed again. The final kick comes from the betrayal of Jesus.
You're saying?
Your allah has no logic. Full of nosence. so much nonsence even you cannot explain, just simply allah knows but nobody knows talk.
You have no logic at all. I answers Perelman's question through Islamic point of views, not yours.
Can't take the heat, then bite a bullet. Or go cry yourself a river.
[ Last edited by Robotech at 4-1-2007 10:50 PM ] |
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Originally posted by Robotech at 4-1-2007 10:49 PM
That's your prerogative. Ismail & Siti Hajar was sent to Mecca, which is situated in Arabian Peninsular. Check your atlas, or use Google Earth!
The Quran never said they were sent by God and for what. Is it your perogative to add to the Quran?
How about this, Isaac descendants become slaves to Pharaoh for generations, thanks to Moses & Aaron who led them to freedom, those tribes started worshiping Golden Calf Idol. How is that for kicks, eh?
Slaves better than pagan arabs.
Yeah, along the way, they strayed again & again. Countless prophets & messengers were sent to them by God, they remain faithful for awhile & then strayed again. The final kick comes from the betrayal of Jesus.
Better than arabs who were pagans all the time and still straying.
Can't take the heat, then bite a bullet. Or go cry yourself a river.
I'm exposing all you folly, so how can i not take teh heat? I've been here since 2000. What abt you? |
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Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 1-1-2007 06:38 AM
Good, you see how easily things are solved? 
solved u said ?
kUi...
if Ishmael and Isaac is the topic..
why don't we just discuss about that :nerd:
okay,lets go to Gen verses again
Gen 21:14-20
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
suddenly it jumped into one "conclusion"
Gen 21:21
21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
at first it says beersheba..beersheba..
then suddenly it says Paran ..
Bible as we know it usually tell us every detail..
suddenly it come into a "short-cut"...
and conclude all the story about Hagar and Ishmael in not much than a quarter page...!
heh..
and guess what..
in Gen 25 , out of sudden ...again..
character of Ishmael pop out of nowhere..
Gen 25:9
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
this verse shows that the two sons of Abraham buried his body..
 : eeeeeeeeeeeekk
i still remember when God said in the Gen 22 "....Take your son, your only son..."
which your translation for "the only son" meaning the son that remains..
hah...
okay,one more question..
when Isaac was circumcised and weaned
where was it actually took place.. ?
[ Last edited by karengkang at 5-1-2007 01:34 AM ] |
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Easy to explain and much better than Quran.
Ismail left Abraham as a teenager because he created trouble in the family when Isaac was a defenceless child. He grew up in the wilderness of paran which is on the sinai not far from where beersheba is.
He later came back to bury abraham when he died to bury him.
Ismail was Abraham's son born of aq concubine but he was not the heir.
Its all very clear.
The Quran on the other hand had Ismail left with no epxlainanation in canaan and suddenly appear in mecca more than a 1000 km away thirsting. now thats ridiculous. |
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Originally posted by Debmey at 5-1-2007 02:38 PM
Easy to explain and much better than Quran.
Ismail left Abraham as a teenager because he created trouble in the family when Isaac was a defenceless child. He grew up in the wilderness of paran ...
firstly...
please answer this
okay,one more question..
when Isaac was circumcised and weaned
where was it actually took place.. ?
secondly...
please define "created trouble" for this case :nerd:
thirdly....
i found one interesting verse..
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
now wait a minute..
at first Jewish/Christian said "...your son, your only son..." means the only son that still remained..
remember this verse ?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
the last time i check...
Isaac wasn't the only son of Abraham :nerd:
if we still believe Bible is the word of God...
according both verses (Gen 22 and Hebrews 11) ...
his (Abraham) only begotten son should be Ishmael...not Isaac
:nerd: can any of u see how all this are related with what Quran taught ?
[ Last edited by karengkang at 7-1-2007 02:46 AM ] |
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Didn't you read the Bible? Ismail bullied Isaac, thats the trouble he created, thats why he was sent away.<br />
<br />
As for Hebrew 11, the passage refered to legitimate son. Isaac was Abraham's only legitimate Son. Ismail was born of a concubine, a son but not a legitimate one. <br />
<br />
What else?
[ Last edited by Debmey at 7-1-2007 03:09 AM ] |
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Originally posted by Debmey at 7-1-2007 03:07 AM
Didn't you read the Bible? Ismail bullied Isaac, thats the trouble he created, thats why he was sent away.
can u define "bullied" in this contact ? :nerd:
As for Hebrew 11, the passage refered to legitimate son. Isaac was Abraham's only legitimate Son. Ismail was born of a concubine, a son but not a legitimate one.
legitimate ??
kUi...
please don't twist your tounge...
Jesus is God legitimate son ..
while Ishamel not Abraham legitimate son..
u makes me laugh :lol
so,how about this verse ?
Gen 16:3
And Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife.
If the marriage was legal..
how could their offspring be illegal ?
Is a marriage between two foreigners, a Chaldean and an Egyptian, not more legal than a marriage between a man with a daughter of his father?
Whether it was a lie of Abraham or not, it is stated in Genesis 20
Gen20:12
And moreover she (sarah) is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife
question: Where in the Bible is it written that Ishmael was an illegitimate son?
Remember this analogy ??
a) if Isaac is the only son of Abraham...then, Ishmael son of who ?
case A:
a - Nick Perelman have sex with a prostitute
b - Nick Perelman rape a girl
c - Nick Perelman have sex with his wife
if, those women were pregnant..
can u tell me, which one is Nick Perelman's child ?
1- A only
2- B only
3- C only
4- all of the above
case B:
a- from Nick Perelman's marriage,he have one child..not long after that his wife died
b- years later he married again and got another child...
now,how many is Nick Perelman's children ?
this analogy prove that whatever Jewish/Christian call or label Ishmael...
He is the son of Abraham...
conclusion:Isaac was not the only begotten son of Abraham..we can say that Ishmael was the only begotten son of Abraham since Isaac was not born on that time (the moment when God ask Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son)
can u digest this info ?
erkk...i doubt it :nerd:
p/s:- i'll be back on friday
[ Last edited by karengkang at 7-1-2007 10:12 PM ] |
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me This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by karengkang at 7-1-2007 10:05 PM
Isaac was not the only begotten son of Abraham..we can say that Ishmael was the only begotten son of Abraham since Isaac was not born on that time (the moment when God ask Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son)
not really sure where you got that from.
genesis21:21
And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac. 4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. 5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. 7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age. 8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
genesis22:22
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. [1] 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. |
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(can u define "bullied" in this contact ?)
Can you read the Bible that you have quoted? Ahahahahahahahaha................
(legitimate ??)
kUi...
Yep legit. Ismail was born of a concubine, not a legit wife.
(please don't twist your tounge...
Jesus is God legitimate son ..
while Ishamel not Abraham legitimate son..
u makes me laugh)
Yes sir, Ismail was not Abraham's legit son.
(so,how about this verse ?
Gen 16:3
And Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife.)
Fully explained by this verse.
Galatians 4:22 NIV
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
(If the marriage was legal..
how could their offspring be illegal ?)
There was no marriage, thats why offspring was not legit.
(Gen20:12
And moreover she (sarah) is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife)
Thats right, Sarah was the wife of Abraham.
(question: Where in the Bible is it written that Ishmael was an illegitimate son?
Remember this analogy ??)
Read Galatians 4. Gen 15:1-8, the very chapter you quoted from.
How could Hagar be a legit wife of abraham and still be a maid of Sarah? |
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The Quran never said they were sent by God and for what. Is it your perogative to add to the Quran?
Since when Siti Hajar (Hagar) & Ismail (Ishmael) were sent by God there? It was Abraham, following Almighty's order to the letter, that brought them to Mecca.
Slaves better than pagan arabs.
Ohmigosh ... slaves is better than freedom? Some pagan tribes today gonna laugh at your stupid remarks ....
Better than arabs who were pagans all the time and still straying.
Ad & Thamud (Perished) Arab tribes were extinguished by God. Certainly not a better outcome, izzit. After the Arabs received Islam, the Golden Age of Civilisation comes to being, in which, has a lot to contribute to the rise of Renaissance in the then backward Christian Europe mired in Dark Age.
Now the Arabs, along as other Muslims irregardless of ethniciries, are staunch monotheisthic supporter that frown upon pagan practice. You're saying? |
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I'm exposing all you folly, so how can i not take teh heat? I've been here since 2000. What abt you?
I'm also exposing your BS. I've been battling with Christian bigots like you online since 1998.
Are we comparing credentials here? |
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Originally posted by Debmey at 8-1-2007 12:19 AM
Can you read the Bible that you have quoted? Ahahahahahahahaha................
u know what...
Bible only says one word ==> mocking
there's no explanation on how or what is Ishmael "mocking" about..
that's why i asked your explanation...
on what do u really understand with that verse :nerd:
Yep legit. Ismail was born of a concubine, not a legit wife.
it's only your own assumption...
Bible never said that Hagar is Abraham's concubine...
u can check in any chapter/verse...
it keep saying wife...wife...and wife :ketuk: :nerd:
Yes sir, Ismail was not Abraham's legit son
where in the Bible says that Ishmael was not Abraham's legitimate son ? :nerd:
Fully explained by this verse.
Galatians 4:22 NIV
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
u see..
again and again...
Bible told u clearly about this matter ==> Abraham had two sons
- 1 by slave woman (Hagar)
- 1 by free woman (Sarah)
again,do Bible ever told u that one of them is illegitime son ?
There was no marriage, thats why offspring was not legit.
hah...
it's only your own assumptions
Thats right, Sarah was the wife of Abraham.
Gen20:12
And moreover she (sarah) is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife)
u know what...
the verse shows that Abraham was married to his own sister.
both are came from the same father.. :
errkk are u saying that according to Christianity...
one can marry to his/her own blood ??
Read Galatians 4. Gen 15:1-8, the very chapter you quoted from.
How could Hagar be a legit wife of abraham and still be a maid of Sarah?
kUi...
this is a prove shows that u don't understand your own Bible...
Gen 15:2 was not talking about Ishmael :ketuk:
because at that time, Abraham wasn't married yet with Hagar
please read it again
Gen 15
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward. "
2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me sinceI remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."
4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man (Eliezer) will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir."
it says "a son coming from your own body"...
according to u, do Ishmael fits this criteria ? :hmm:
so,whatever the verse u asked me to browse..
all of it are contradict with human's logic and understanding..
i don't know how your brain works..
but,can u tell me..
since Sarah cannot give Abraham child (barren)...
why she permitted his husband to married again at the first place ? :nerd:
[ Last edited by karengkang at 14-1-2007 03:08 PM ] |
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by the way...
u didn't answer my question yet..
okay,one more question..
when Isaac was circumcised and weaned
where was it actually took place.. ?
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Salam sejahtera saudara me..
Originally posted by me at 8-1-2007 12:09 AM
not really sure where you got that from.
semua perbincangan ini adalah untuk memecahkan masalah siapakah yg "dikorbankan" dalam peristiwa tersebut...
Pihak Yahudi dan Kristian mendakwa bahawa yg dikorbankan itu adalah Ishak..
manakala Islam menyatakan Ismail..
jadi saya berpegang pada hujah saya sebelum ini...
di mana, Tuhan preserve perkataan-Nya dengan mengatakan "anakmu yang tunggal"
Genesis 22:2
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
jadi, dalam proses ini...
saya turut membawa beberapa verse tentang masalah tunggal..
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son
cuba bandingkan dengan ayat ini
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
kata kunci untuk kedua ayat tersebut adalah "his only begotten son"
so, soalan saya...
adakah Ishak menepati analogy "your only son" atau "his only begotten son" ? |
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Post time 4-1-2007 08:17 PM
