Why descendants of Isaac were chosen first?

Nick_Perelman

Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. According to Islam both were prophets. Then why descendants of Isaac were chosen first, despite Isaac was a youngest son? Why descendants of Ishmael became pagans? Why Ishmael was kicked to desert by Abraham?

all the best,
Nick

wira_melayu

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 14-10-2006 05:55 PM
Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. According to Islam both were prophets. Then why descendants of Isaac were chosen first, despite Isaac was a youngest son? Why descendants of Ishmael became  ...

It is because there is no descrimination in Islam,Allah knows the best.What matter most is that Prophet Muhammad the descendants of Ishmael succeed to make the world believes in the one god and the only god.

Now can you tell me

1)at what age is Ishmael when the expulsion occurred?

2) Ishmael or Isaac was the one to be sacrificed?

Nick_Perelman

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 16-10-2006 03:38 AM
It is because there is no descrimination in Islam,

Ishmael was kicked because there is no discrimination in Islam? Very strange explanation.

Allah knows the best

In another words you have no real explanation.

Further starts offtop but I will answer nevertheless:

What matter most is that Prophet Muhammad the descendants of Ishmael succeed to make the world believes in the one god and the only god.

Followers of Muhammad are hardly 20% of world population. And their GNP and scientific output is even much lower than it. So what "making world" are you talking about?

1)at what age is Ishmael when the expulsion occurred?

Soon after Isaac's birth. About 14-15.

2) Ishmael or Isaac was the one to be sacrificed?

Bible says Isaac, what does Koran say?

wira_melayu

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 16-10-2006 07:48 AM

Soon after Isaac's birth. About 14-15.


...

Ok its good that you've started to reply after a long time hiding,so where's the source are you referring to?

Bible says Isaac, what does Koran say?

The Quran is true,its Ishmael the one to be sacrificed.

Debmey

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 16-10-2006 03:38 AM
It is because there is no descrimination in Islam,Allah knows the best.What matter most is that Prophet Muhammad the descendants of Ishmael succeed to make the world believes in the one god and the only god.

So why are Muslims discriminating under Islam?
There is no evidence to suggest that Mohamad descended from Ishmael at all.

wira_melayu

Originally posted by Debmey at 17-10-2006 03:02 AM

So why are Muslims discriminating under Islam?
There is no evidence to suggest that Mohamad descended from Ishmael at all.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/family_tree.htm

vitruvian_man

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 16-10-2006 07:48 AM

In another words you have no real explanation.

When it comes to God act, must we need to have every explanation to it?Do u ask your god why he didn't granted you your wish when you're wishing on something and pray to god for it?Do you questioned on God when Tsunami hits acheh?Do you asked god why did he hit north carolina with katrina?

I believe when wira melayu answered by telling Allah knows the best it is because we muslim never asked everything that Allah have gave us.Because we know, Allah is the almighty.Allah knows everything which is best for us.that is why muslims faith is waaaay more stronger compared to christians.
when a president decide on something, we must ask the purpose of their act because they are also human like us.Human make mistakes.God don't.God is flawless in every way.The way i saw it, your topic is like you're questioning God's act.Correct me if i were wrong

btw, we are still waiting for a single post from christians in this thread--->http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=243466&extra=page%3D1

Debmey

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 17-10-2006 03:12 AM





http://www.answering-christianity.com/family_tree.htm

This family has a problem.
Muslim tradition itself affirms that Ishmael was not the father of the Arabs. Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad states:

Ishmael is the son of Ibrahim (Abraham) b. Tarih (Azar) b. Nahur b. Sarugh b. Rau'u b. Falikh b. 'Aybar b. Shalikh b. Arfakhshadh b. Sam (Shem) b. Nuh (Noah). (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 3)

Then we have another line from Noah, where we read:

'Ad b. 'Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of 'Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh, and Tasm and 'Imlaq and Umayan the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. Nabit b. Isma'il begat Yashjub and the line runs: Ta'rub-Tayrah-Bahur-Muqawwan-Udad-'Adnan. (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 4)

This demonstrates that Arabs existed long before Ishmael was even born since according to this tradition, Ishmael's great-great-great-great...-great uncles were already the Arabs.

There are several problems with these genealogies. The first problem is the time span, as noted by the following sources:

"If there are only four generations between Adnan and Ishmael, then the are about 24-25 generations between Muhammad and Abraham spanning about 2500 years. This makes for about one hundred years between generations, which is a bit far-fetched (it is ok if it were for some generations, like Abraham and Ishmael, but very far-fetched if it were to occur regularly. We know that the generations near to Muhammad are pretty normal, not so stretched out, so this makes the other inter-generational gaps even wider). On the other hand, using the data from reference 2, we get about 32-33 generations between Abraham and Muhammad, giving us an inter-generational gap of about seventy-five years. This is still unbelievably high.

It should be said that perhaps, we are faced with incomplete data in that some generations are omitted (the situation is also to be seen in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus where he omitted some names). It could be the same with Muslim genealogical data. On the other hand, if the hadith that there are only four generations between Adnan and Ishmael is literal, then we are faced with a problem. If the hadith is true, then Muslim genealogy is most likely false (it is difficult to imagine so many one hundred years between generations). If the hadith is false, then we have to re-evaluate the accuracy of hadith reports.

there are only 24 generations from Abraham to Muhammad, which is quite fantastic. Now, if we grant 30 years to each generation (i.e. make the generous assumption that each male fathered his respective son by age 30), this would place Abraham some time around 150 BCE. The math behind such a conclusion goes as follows:

30 X 24 = 720

Muhammad was allegedly born 570 CE

570 - 720 = -150.

The oldest existing texts to mention Abraham are found among the scrolls from Qumran (so-called "Dead Sea Scrolls"), which date anywhere from the 3rd century BCE to 68 CE. With that in mind it is reasonable to assume that writing already existed on Abraham (as well as numerous later Biblical heroes, such as Isaac, Jacob, Moses, et cetera) at the time the above genealogy places the patriarch. Of course, this is a moot point, as no Muslim would ever try and place Abraham's life around 150 BCE.

The only way out of this would be to take a page from the Judeo-Christian folklore, and start postulating wild scenarios, where patriarchs don't reach puberty until 90, father children at 120, and finally die some time around 200 years of age! Of course that is just plain absurd, and it shows the extent of the silliness found in the "intellectual" religion known as al-Islaam.

Debmey

The second problem with these genealogies is that they are written long after Muhammad's rise to fame. In other words, these are not based on pre-Islamic records but records compiled by Muslims after the death of Muhammad. It is not hard to imagine Muslims concocting genealogies around biblical figures in order to legitimize Muhammad's claim to prophethood. Let us point again to this hadith:

Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4)

If this is true, then the genealogy of Muhammad was not known to either himself or his clan. Otherwise he could have appealed to general knowledge and would not have had to appeal to revelation to place himself in a certain descendency. To be a descendant of Ishmael (via Mudar) was a claim that started with Muhammad's own words but without historical evidence even in his life time. In the end, it comes down to nothing but an unsubstantiated claim from Muhammad, ... or from later Muslims who put this into his mouth.

The third problem with these above lists is that they are not even consistent with that given by Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasulullah. Ibn Ishaq, the earliest biographer of Muhammad traces his line to Ishmael through Nabit (Nebaioth), not Kedar. Here is Ibn Ishaq's list:

Originally posted by Debmey at 17-10-2006 10:40 AM



This family has a problem.
Muslim tradition itself affirms that Ishmael was not the father of the Arabs. Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad states:

Ishmael is the son of Ibrahim (Abraham)  ...

I just lurrrve it when Debmey tries to look clever by cutting and pasting from http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Shamoun/ishmael.htm and pretend they're his own thoughts.  Busted !!!

The only sentence that is originally yours in the posts above is "This family has a problem".  Oh, how intelligent! :clap:

Dah lah cut and paste, tak sedar when the paragraph ends hanging in above post.

[ Last edited by  samerosie at 17-10-2006 10:41 PM ]

Debmey

I did not pretend its mine, I simply cut and pasted those parts that are relevant so that you don't need to read a whole chunk.

The real problem seems to be, you have no reply to the debunk on Mohamad's false genealogy.

Mo is therefore not a descendent of Abraham.

cheers

Nick_Perelman

Originally posted by wira_melayu at 17-10-2006 02:26 AM
The Quran is true,its Ishmael the one to be sacrificed.

Please show me, where Koran tells that Ishmael was sacrificed.

When it comes to God act, must we need to have every explanation to it?Do u ask your god why he didn't granted you your wish when you're wishing on something and pray to god for it?Do you questioned on God when Tsunami hits acheh?Do you asked god why did he hit north carolina with katrina?

Yes I want to know why God chosed children of younger son Isaac and forgot older son for 2000 years. I dont find any reasonable explanation.

Conserning Tsubami, God did not sent it. It is geological event.

vitruvian_man

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 18-10-2006 07:52 AM

Yes I want to know why God chosed children of younger son Isaac and forgot older son for 2000 years. I dont find any reasonable explanation.

Because God do what God thinks best for us.God is the Almighty.God's the Most Wisdom.God  knows the future. Who are we to ask God of every thing He does for an explaination?Must there be every reasonable answer to everything?In fact there're so many unreasonable things in this world that was created by God which even scientists can't explain.Therefore, for this question, you might wanna ask God urself.

Conserning Tsubami, God did not sent it. It is geological event.

Did you mean that it's not God who created the earth? :cak: Or you never believe in God? :cak:

Debmey

So allah's best is for descendenst of Ishmael descendents to be pagans right?

Here's the contradiction here. Mo killed pagans and taiught his followers to kill pagans or force them to adopt Islam.
So why weren't the descendents of Ishmael killed? why the double standards?

i212

So allah's best is for descendenst of Ishmael descendents to be pagans right?

Did any source says that Ishmael descendents are pagans?
Did Ishmael are pagans or his people are pagan?
Can you give some explanation.

Originally posted by Debmey at 17-10-2006 10:52 PM
I did not pretend its mine, I simply cut and pasted those parts that are relevant so that you don't need to read a whole chunk.

The real problem seems to be, you have no reply to the debunk on Mohamad's false genealogy.

What a convenient excuse!  You never did credit the original author either.  

The real problem here seems to be that you have no thoughts /view of your own, you are just parrotting without knowing head or tail.  I don't need to debunk  anything at all from Sam Shamoun.

Debmey

Originally posted by i212 at 18-10-2006 10:32 AM

Did any source says that Ishmael descendents are pagans?
Did Ishmael are pagans or his people are pagan?
Can you give some explanation.

Weren't the arabs pagans before islam was invented? don't you know islamic history?

i212

by Debmey
Weren't the arabs pagans before islam was invented? don't you know islamic history?

Not answering the question.
1) Can you give me some verse that declare Ishmael are pagans?

When you do the assumption, its mean you not know Islam and also your religion.
Its like you say Christians and Jews also are pagans.
*2) In your mind, did mother of Jesus (Mary) are pagans?

*new question

Debmey

OK great, you have just showed us you do not know islamic histiry, its no wonder you are a fool to be muslim.

cheers

i212

There are Pagans, Christians, Jews etc.. in Arabs before prophet Muhammad..

I Think you the one that do not know History. And still not answering me.,

1) Can you give me some verse that declare Ishmael are pagans?
2) What is Mother of Jesus(Mary) religion before Jesus?