Aku lak sedang merajinkan diri membaca buku siri terdebatan umat Kristian ngan tokoh2 pagan pada abad permulaan Kristian.
heran pulak aku, org zaman moden ni dok kata Kristian tiru pagan.....tetapi umat pagan zaman2 dulu dok hentam Kristian ckp ajaran kristian sgt x munasabah...bagaimana TUHAN boleh jadi manusia bla bla bla bla......sebijik mcm hujah ..........
Heran kan....kalau org pagan sendiri ckp ajaran Kristian x munasabah...mcm mana pula org zaman moden ni dok ckp Kristian tiru pagan??
Trinitarians are amongst Diophysite Christians. There are few other school of Diophysites and ot ... When Jesus says, I am Alpha and Omega (I am the Earliest and the Final). It means that he is in divine caharacteristic and speaks the word of God. If he was not divine then those words won't came out from his mouth.
sky_ephemeris Post at 2-2-2011 18:15
really? if jesus is truly almighty god in man's form, why didnt he tell us outright that he's god, that he wanna know how it feels to be in his creation'shoe in order to save mankind? well?
really? if jesus is truly almighty god in man's form, why didnt he tell us outright that he's god, that he wanna know how it feels to be in his creation'shoe in order to save mankind? well?
If you think about the vessel and the contain in the vessel is the same substance, then you will have a dizzy head
Physical body and soul is not the same thing, dear. The soul of Christ is poured down into the vessel by the Father. You can't see your spirit which is your spiritual part of self although you can feel it, but you can touch and see your physical part of body.
If you think about the vessel and the contain in the vessel is the same substance, then you will ...
sky_ephemeris Post at 5-2-2011 02:49
you didnt answer my question - if jesus is truly almighty god in man's form, why didnt he tell us outright that he's god, that he wanna know how it feels to be in his creation shoe in order to save mankind?
where in the bible that jesus say he's god the father and god the holy spirit? god the father didnt mention nuthin in torah and bible. how come?
you didnt answer my question - if jesus is truly almighty god in man's form, why didnt he tell us outright that he's god, that he wanna know how it feels to be in his creation shoe in order to save mankind?
You or Muslims might heard typical answer, that's God mystery. Or I might answer jokingly, because God wants to show human His sons the meaning of humility
You still believe that Jesus was sent to save mankind and die on the stake aren't you? Or you have the same belief with Muslims that Jesus is not crucifixed but other guy who's name is Judas Iscariot being screwed up because he is jealous of lord Jesus? And still using the Bible (New Testament) which was accused by Muslims as being written by Saint Paul the Jew apostate?
Jesus is not a god. He is His theophany, in the language of the people when we explain about the Father, the son and spiritu relationship. When you see holy men, you will feel that you are closer to God, but that does not implies that he is a god.
You won't check what our Metropolitan of Armenia, Mar Odishu (1298) talked about our understanding on Trinity wouldn't you? This is how we the Nestorian Catholics understand God the Father, His relation to the son, and also spiritu santu. Trinity is just a formula of faith, on we should have faith in the Father, His son lord Jesus, and Spiritu Santu. I don't know where do the people get this idea that it is about idolatry or worshiping false gods.
Everything that exists must be either a material body whose existence is the subject of accidents and changes. And is acted upon by whatever is opposed to it or not a body. And consequently not the subject of any of these things. Now we have already proved that (glory be to His incomprehensibility) is not a body. Therefore is not subject to anything pertaining to materiality, from which He is infinitely removed.
Whatever is immaterial and not subject to anything appertaining to matter, the traditions of the ancients call Mind. Whatever is exclusive of matter, and of what appertains thereto, must be knowing and must know himself. Because hi,self is ever present and known to him and it's not dependent of anything but itself. Whatever knows its essence must be living. Therefore God is Wise and Living.
Now, he who is wise discerns because of his wisdom. He who is living because he has life. This is the mystery of Trinity, which the Church confesses of that Adorable Nature, Mind, Wisdom and Life. Three co-essential properties in One. One who is glorified in three properties. The Mind (the Church) has called Father and Begetter, because He is the Cause of all and the First. The son has been called Wisdom and Begotten, because He is begotten of the Mind, by Him everything was made and created. The Life has been called the Holy Spirit (Ruach ha-Kodesh) and Proceedung because there is no other Holy Spirit but He.
He who is Holy is unchangeable, according to the interpretation of received expositors. And this is that which is declared by John the divine, the son of Zebedee: "In the beginning was the Word and, the Life is the light of men." Now in the manner of the soul which is possessed of three-fold energy; Mind, Word, and Life. They are all One and not Three although in the doctrine it is conceived as Three in One and One in Three.
The sun also, which is one in its disk, radiance, and heat, is another simile adduced by the second Theologus Paul, on the chosen vessel: "He is the brightness of His glory, and the Express Image of His being." And again "Christ, the (prove of the) power of God and the wisdom of God." Further everything that exists is either an accident or a substance. But the Self-existent can in no wise susceptible of accident.
Therefore these three properties are con-substantial and are on this account called Qanume (hypostasis) or substance and not accidental powers. Nor do they cause change in the nature of the con-substantial nor plurality. For He is the Mind, the Same He is the Wisdom, the Same He is the Life. Whomever begat without cessation, and puts forth (makes to proceed) without removal from Himself.
These cessation removal are infinitely removed from Him for there is no real likeness between created natures and the Nature of the eternally existing and a simile doesn't in everything resemble that which is compared by it; for then the simile and that which is compared by it would be the thing itself, and we (who have just instituted comparisons) would not be unlike the man who attempts to compare a thing by the self-same thing. The mystery of Trinity is expressed in the words of the OT: "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness," the occurence of the letter nun (hebrew and aramaic letter) three times in this sentence is an indication of the Trinity.
The Holy thrice (word) repeated in seraphic hymn, as mentioned by Isaiah joined with one "lord," attests Three Qanume in One nature.The words of David also are the same important: "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth;" and many other like references. Let the heathen then, and Jews who rail at the truth of the Catholic Church, on account of her (the Church) faith, be confounded and put to shame.
In words of David, I guess Muslim said it is wrong to mention that God has a mouth. Although we do know that God does not resemble human-being but it is just the way to express something about God acts since human thinking can't easily reach God's thinking. Take time to digest what he means by his writing through this translation.
You or Muslims might heard typical answer, that's God mystery. Or I might answer jokingly, becau ...
Jesus is not a god. He is His theophany, in the language of the people when we explain about the Father, the son and spiritu relationship
sky_ephemeris Post at 7-2-2011 16:23
inother words you dont believe jesus is god per se right? and that the trinitarian who said jesus = god is lying right? hence trinitarian and binitarian are man made segment of ONE GOD christianity. right?
I would rather say, the bishops were concluding the pillars of Christian's faith just like Muslim theologians concluding Islamic Pillars of faith which was not clearly taugh during the period of Muhammad
Do you know Nestorius the Archbishop of Constantinople of fourth century? The monk who prophesied about Muhammad (Muslim said, not me nor clearly mentioned in Bible) while he was in a business caravan in Syria was a monk from Nestorian Church
I think you should dwell more amongst Muslims to understand my posts because your theology understanding about Jesus with flaws (because he is a normal human-being who has no revelation and Word/Wisdom) is almost the same like them
You don't know about Archbishop Nestorius of Constantinople? He was also an opponent to the monk, Arius Viz Lucian but the things that both of them were talking is basically the same thing, so later Nestorius too was condemned as a heretics just like Arius
It is just the matter of differences in terminologies used in foreign language which is Greek and most of Syrians were also proficient in Greek. Many of the scrolls and texts by early Christians were also written in Syriac and Hebrew, not only in Greek. Like Muslim said, Christians know no thing about Hebrew nor Syriac because we have our fake books not in the language of Jesus like them and Christianity is only spread to Western World and not to the East like their Islamic teachings Do you read about others such as Eastern Churches as well, Sonny or you were once from Western branch of churches whether Western Catholicism or Protestantism (of course Protestantism begins in the West)? This song by our Eastern Catholic and Orthodox sister is quite nice, chill for a moment everyone, no tense
I think you should dwell more amongst Muslims to understand my posts because your theology understan ...
sky_ephemeris Post at 7-2-2011 23:39
perhaps there's similarity in unitarian and muslim understanding of jesus being god and/or man. and you neither mr DEBMEY cum mr DAVID nor wikipedia are of no help in clear the air despite your tons of posts on vessel, theology, divine, soul etc.
a trinitarian statement is crystal clear that jesus = god. wikipedia echoes it that "God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way.[3] Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well.[3] "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient.
the dict says NATURE among others, means the processes and functions of the body while BEING among others means a person; human being. wiki says god the son/god the father/god the holy spirit have EXACTLY SAME NATURE OR BEING. this is similar to JESUS = GOD. right?
me HARDquestion is DOES GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT HAVE BODY OR ARE THEY PERSON/HUMAN BEING? i know you're gonna dig up many tons more of quotes etc from the bible to say NO BUTT . . . . STILL JESUS IS GOD. right? me no biblical scholar neither are you and the author of that article in wiki is BULL (EXCUSE ME O MODS AND FORUMMERS).
god is our father and its the NATURE of a father not to confuse us. it's trinitarians and binitarians who manage to decipher the bible willy nilly and expect us to swallow line hook sinker
hence my suggestion to you and mr DEBMEY/DAVID etc, if you cant make sense stick to the 10 commandments like glue.
I wonder Sonny. What is your denomination before you turn to unitarianism? I know in Amharic there is also a term called Tewahedo and it means Unitarianism. Do you think how many gods that they have?
My second question, do you believe in Muhammad as the apostle of God and Messiah? Say ash-hadu-an laa ilaaha illahllah, wa ash-ha-du-an-na-muhammad-rasulullah? or you believe in Jesus is the last messenger of God?
My third question, are you a Malay? Do you know that Malays should not be Christians but only Muslim?
I wonder Sonny. What is your denomination before you turn to unitarianism?
i was born trinity and turn to unitary.
My second question, do you believe in Muhammad as the apostle of God and Messiah? Say ash-hadu-an laa ilaaha illahllah, wa ash-ha-du-an-na-muhammad-rasulullah?
should i?
you believe in Jesus is the last messenger of God?
why not? butt i dont think you believe jesus is god's last messenger right? you believe god the father cum god the son jesus cum god the holy spirit gonna return right? not jesus per se right?
My third question, are you a Malay? Do you know that Malays should not be Christians but only Muslim?
sky_ephemeris Post at 9-2-2011 16:47
nope. what then??? . . . . you might wanna know. its my prerogative not to disclose.
Post Last Edit by sky_ephemeris at 10-2-2011 10:52
why not? butt i dont think you believe jesus is god's last messenger right? you believe god the father cum god the son jesus cum god the holy spirit gonna return right? not jesus per se right?
Don't be so typical taking that all Christians who hold the formula as the pillar of Creed like what had been thought by Muslims. Muslims are no Christians and never were. We have our own values and also our own churches and I suppose that you should know what had happened in the past but seems like you are not aware about it when I talked about archbishop Nestorius and Eastern branch of church which is located in Asia since apostolic time. No wonder some people like DavidW might also doubt you as a Muslim or a Malay But don't worry there, I dont easily judge people and everybody is free to follow their own path
I don't know about Unitarian Christians or Christians who were not attached to any church because never heard about them but I know stories about early Christians even from Muslim sources like from Surah al-Kahfi and surah Yaa-Sin. I could even make cross check with today sources to see who they are and most of them were also from the branches and fractions of Eastern Churches
Even without Trinity explanation on the relationship of God the Father, His son, and Spiritu Santu, Jesus is a Messiah to me. A perfect man without any sin and can you see any mention in my statement saying that God Jesus the Son or God Spiritu Santu instead of I just mentioned God the Father?
Ask any Muslim whether their 'prophet' is free from sins or not? A sinless and a perfect human is divine but they are not deity nor god (angel) nor God because they have mortal bodies. But they have pure and angelic souls within their physical body in which God choose them to be the medium to spread His teachings to other human-being but for Muslim you have to distinguish the meaning between prophet (nabi) and apostle (rasul). prophet is just a minor figure in their religion while a prophet and an apostle of God is a major figure but of course in the end Muhammad is the Great
Yea, I believe that Jesus will come back as what had been stated in the Creed and Muslim will be Christians because they will follow Jesus Christ that is why they love us and keep trying to bring us into Islamic boundaries so that they can beat us like what had happened to Ahmadiyah Muslims in Indonesia just because their belief differ slightly from them, that is as worse as early Christians killing each other because of differences in theological explanation Urmm, Spiritu Santu exists everywhere dear. In any form where God permits it to be. In Anunciation, Spiritu Santu was actually Archangel Gabriel who blows the other spirit (Jesus) into nossa Madre Santa Maria
I will never proclaim and declare that I have the faith in Muhammad prophethood (divinity whatsoever) in front of these people although I might believe in him personally because they insulted our lord Jesus Christ and insulting Christians' and other non-Muslim's intelligence!
Post time 3-2-2011 08:43 AM
Urmm, Spiritu Santu exists everywhere dear. In any form where God permits it to be. In Anunciation, Spiritu Santu was actually Archangel Gabriel who blows the other spirit (Jesus) into nossa Madre Santa Maria 
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