Is black, a color?

blastoff

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 2-2-2009 03:54 PM

eh waitttttttttt ..hmm.....i am just thinking in the line of....

AI dgn fuzzy logic ni memang berkait. fuzzy logic tu just the concept aje, bila nak implement, kena ada numbers and values, barulah boleh diprogramkan into AI. contoh kucing tadi tu, dia kat dalamke kat luar? one way to quantify ialah dgn bagi sliding scale values (sliding scale lagi hehehe). contohnya kalau dia full kat dalam, value dia 1, kalau dia full kat luar value dia 0. so, in between tu bagi percentages lah. kalau misai dia aje lepas pintu, kita bagi dia value 0.01. kalau masuk sampai idung aje, value 0.02, kalau kepala aje masuk, value dia 0.1...and so on lah.



itu cuma sekoq feline yg cute , tapi kalau  2, 3 ka   felines ..dia nak buat lagu mana?
co mai habaq sat?

fuzzy logic ni berguna untuk memaksimakan kepekaan sesuatu alat terutama alat elektrik agar ia boleh respon secara automatik kepada tak kira berapa banyak pun keadaan yang berbeza - beza dengan tepat dan sesuai mengikut keperluannya . Kira alat tu akan jadi smart dan lebih canggih la kan dengan sistem fuzzy logic nih .

Contoh aircond yang boleh regulate suhu nya secara automatik mengikut berbagai temperature suhu bilik dengan tepat , agar bilik sentiasa stabil sejuk aja ,

washing machine yang boleh regulate jumlah air yang masuk ke dalam tub secara automatik mengikut berbagai berat pakaian dengan tepat , agar jumlah air sentiasa sesuai untuk basuhan .

Kalau dalam alam semulajadi, mata kita yang boleh regulate secara automatik saiz pupil  mengikut berbagai jumlah cahaya yang masuk ke mata dengan tepat sekali  ,  agar amount cahaya yang sampai ke retina sentiasa sesuai aja tak kira ke mana kita halakan mata kita .

Badan kucing pun guna fuzzy logic gak , tengok kucing yang jatuh dari atas pokok tak kira setinggi mana pun pokok tu , macam mana badan dia apabila landing sentiasa empat-empat kaki atas tanah aje, mana ada dia landing atas belakang dia ! Jadi badan dia mampu regulate secara automatik every body part dia agar respon dengan tepat kepada berbagai arah angin yang kena pada mana-mana aja body part dia ketika dia jatuh , agar seluruh badan dia sentiasa maintain pada kedudukan yang stabil dan betul sehingga dia sampai ke tanah dengan selamat , sebab tu kita tak pernah dengar kucing patah kaki atau terkehel leher kalau jatuh pokok tak kira setinggi mana pun pokok tu .

[ Last edited by  blastoff at 2-2-2009 08:57 PM ]

mbhcsf

hmm yeah you made me think....autoregulation lah kire kan fuzzy logic ni...
so kalau macam tu sama jugak dgn bdn manusia ada konsep homeostasis , and our brain & kidneys ada mechanism nie = autoregulation

saden

jap..jap.. coming..

saden

aaaaa ok ni dia posting u pasal Wak Heisenberg kita tu.

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 1-2-2009 07:46 AM [/url] heheheh as far as i am concerned, it is true ( and I agreed with you onthis ) that the absolute value of certain physical quantities liketemperature cannot be readily obtained, we merely obtained therelative value just by relying on the expansion of mercury in thethermometer. In a way Encik Werner Heisenberg was telling us the truthand proposed the "uncertainty principle" which already addressed thematter above. He said that we could never know the TRUE values ofthings, but we could get the relative value of things, at least .

close, but not exactly like that. uncertainty principle tu asalnya untuk some pairs of quantities, usual example is position vs momentum. the more sure u know about one, the less sure u know about the other. tapi last2 org applykan uncetainty principle ni untuk observation punya limit, pasal untuk observe atau measure sesuatu, kita kena probe dia, usual probe is cahaya. tapi bila photon tu langgar particle yg kita nak observe tu, particle tu affected due to our observation, tu pasal true value tu jadi uncertain. so, i guess u are right la hehehe cuma uncertainty principle ni bukan about relative value of things, tapi about our ability to know some things exactly or not.

solvay conference tu i tau, cuma dulu i panggil dia copenhagen group/conference aje. all the big names in physics ada. thanks for telling me the actual name

So you are right in that sense. But in discussing this your green - is - the- same - as - mine ni well, relative comparsion would be suffice ..kan? let us say we have several tones / shades of green and we say to thecute green + blue - eyed boy ( i mean the iris is blue; not becoz hewas being hit on the eyes) if he were to come back again and weinstruct him to show us how green is the grass, like say " Hello Tom/Nicole/ Siti/ Hafiz/Mutu / Devi/Ah Kow/ Mei Hua, could you please matchthe colour you see on the grass with the colour that we have on thepellets here?".... bagilah gula gula lepas tu sebab dia participate inresearch .....so in a way we could gauge whether he is perceiving thegreen grass as what we would expected for the rest 95 % of thepopulation hopefully. okay .....so the fact that we , never know the true value is okay iwould say, as it would not hampering us from knowing whether the childis perceiving the "green" normally or the other way around.

exactly what i said much earlier as long as the child's reaction to the same stimulus is the same as everyone else's, we're ok

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 2-2-2009 01:31 AM you know by the mentioning of the word dark and darth vader , somehow it does not sound so inviting...try asking Obi Wan... wakakakaka...would i need to be carrying that green - coloured ...

tanya yoda la.... carry green colored laser, you must... hrrmm? hrrrmmmm??

saden

Originally posted by blastoff at 2-2-2009 07:23 AM

eee perasan nya tok guru nih , tapi tok guru punya penerangan simple sangat mass nya   , sedangkan pengikut tok guru terlampau terlebih mass pulak cara berfikir nya , lain kali tok guru kena provide lebih banyak mass lagi ye penerangantok guru tu agar compatible dengan cara berfikir pengikut tok guru   

hehehe..huiiiii benda ni yg paling payah nak buat. selalunya dalam kepala student kita berserabut dgn formula n fakta, dia ingat dia dah tau banyak, tapi bila suruh terangkan konsep, dia tenggelam dlm formula2 n istilah... padahal konsep tu senang je, boleh terangkan dgn bahasa simple je.

nak suruh bebudak ni berfikir secara simple tapi clear dan mantap, tapi dia ingat benda advanced ni mesti kena complicated. biladia paham konsep tu, barulah dia boleh pikir outside the box, pasal dia dah nampak mana sempadan box tu.

saden

again kita terperangkap dgn definition yg kita buat sendiri...

Originally posted by blastoff at 2-2-2009 07:55 AM


Black can be defined as the visual impression experienced when no lightreaches the eye. Objek hitam menyerap semua cahaya jadi mata kita takada cahaya yang sampai sebab tu kita nampak nya sebagai hitam, takseperti warna-warna lain kan  .

half right... tak semestinya bila no light reaches the eye kita nampak visual impression of blackness. another case yg membolehkan ini juga berlaku ialah kalau radiation tu beyond manusia punya seeing ability, contohnya xray atau microwave... pancaran tu masuk mata, cuma sel2 mata tak terangsang. so, in this case, walaupun radiation masuk mata, otak still give visual impression of blackness.

Lagi satu kalau kita fikirkan warna merah , biru , hijau etc maka iatak boleh ditentukan secara definitive kan , kita kena kaitkan dengansomething sebab terlalu luas range warnanya macam merah darah, merahhati , hijau pucuk pisang , hijau rumput still rumput pun ada macam -macam hijau nya .

itu cuma nama yg kita sempat nak beri aje. kalau ikut manusia punya color response, kita boleh kenal 10million colors. setakat different shades of green yg kita boleh bagi nama tu very limited. ikut sistem color tu, each different shade of green tu dikira sebagai color yg berasingan, so diorang bagi numerical or hexadecimal code aje for each color tu pasal dah terlalu banyak.

Tapi bila kita fikirkan mengenai hitam , maka hitam tak pula ada rangewarnanya dan ia definitive atau lengkap , sebut aja hitam maka semuafaham hitam tu macam mana tanpa perlu kaitkan dengan apa pun . Nampak tak bezanya antara hitam dan warna lain , maka to me hitam is not a color because it doesn't behave like one .

kalau hitam campur dgn putih, kita dapat different shades of hitam juga, just like different shades of hijau atau warna2 lain. so taklah hitam tu saja absolute black, warna lain tidak. kalau ikut RGB punya system, red, green, blue pun absolute color jugak, dan color2 lain adalah combination dari color2 asas ni. kalau ikut sistem CMYK, lagi jelas, cyan, magenta, yellow and black tu kira pure color.

so, ikut definition la. kita boleh define such that black tu jadi color, atau kita boleh define such that black tu tak dikira color

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 2-2-2009 03:44 PM


are you into this ker?If i may ask?

hehe takde lah... saja je nak a/s/l

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 2-2-2009 03:54 PM itu cuma sekoq feline yg cute , tapi kalau 2, 3 ka felines ..dia nak buat lagu mana? co mai habaq sat?

ni dah kira multivariate analysis pulak. nak contoh yg simple boleh rujuk kat website ni, macamana dia extend from 1 variable ke many variables.. http://mathematica.ludibunda.ch/fuzzy-logic6.html

saden

Originally posted by blastoff at 2-2-2009 05:00 PM fakta kesihatan macam mana yang you maksudkan tu ? Well , tak dapat dinafikan banyak sunnah nabi yang ada unsur sains sebenarnya , itu sebagai tanda mukjizat la kan bahwa hadis Nabi ya ...

betullah tu apa yg kau cakap tu, memang sebagai mukjizat. cuma aku berfikir along kata2 saidina ali; lebihkurang 'kalau dibawa syurga dan neraka depan para sahabat sekarang ni, iman mereka dah tak naik tak turun dah' maksudnya iman mereka dah tak perlu apa2 bukti lain lagi, dah fully beriman. cuma tone bila diberitau pasal fakta2 sains yg selari dgn sunnah tu, selalunya tone macam 'haaa! sunnah nabi dibuktikan oleh sains!'. tak perlu pun... even if katalah sains buktikan satu sunnah ni memudaratkan kita, kita harus beriman bahawa dalam sunnah dan so called 'kemudaratan' tu terletaknya kejayaan dan keredhaan Allah.. hmmm aku extremist ke fikir macam gini?

blastoff

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 2-2-2009 09:55 PM
hmm yeah you made me think....autoregulation lah kire kan fuzzy logic ni...

Fuzzy logic is used to achieve autoregulation , so autoregulation is the end result actually and not fuzzy logic itself .

Human beings have the ability to take in and evaluate all sorts of information from the physical world they are in contact with and to mentally analyze, average and summarize all this input data into an optimum course of action.   All living things do this, but humans do it more and do it better and have become the dominant species of the planet.

Fuzzy logic is the way the human brain works, and we can mimic this in machines so they will perform somewhat like humans (not to be confused with Artificial Intelligence, where the goal is for machines to perform EXACTLY like humans).   Fuzzy logic control and analysis systems may be electro-mechanical in nature, or concerned only with data, for example economic data, in all cases guided by "If-Then rules" stated in human language.

Rules are usually expressed in the form:
IF variable IS property THEN action

For example, an extremely simple temperature regulator that uses a fan might look like this:
IF temperature IS very cold THEN stop fan
IF temperature IS cold THEN turn down fan
IF temperature IS normal THEN maintain level
IF temperature IS hot THEN speed up fan

Notice there is no "ELSE". All of the rules are evaluated, because the temperature might be "cold" and "normal" at the same time to different degrees.

Fuzzy logic has the advantage that the solution to the problem can be cast in terms that human operators can understand, so that their experience can be used in the design of the controller. This makes it easier to mechanize tasks that are already successfully performed by humans.

Fuzzy controllers are very simple conceptually. They consist of an input stage, a processing stage, and an output stage. The input stage maps sensor or other inputs, such as switches, thumbwheels, and so on, to the appropriate membership functions and truth values. The processing stage invokes each appropriate rule and generates a result for each, then combines the results of the rules. Finally, the output stage converts the combined result back into a specific control output value.

The fuzzy logic analysis and control method is, therefore:
1. Receiving of one, or a large number, of measurement or other assessment of conditions existing in some system we wish to analyze or control.
2. Processing all these inputs according to human based, fuzzy "If-Then" rules, which can be expressed in plain language words.
3. Averaging and weighting the resulting outputs from all the individual rules into one single output decision or signal which decides what to do or tells a controlled system what to do.   The output signal eventually arrived at is a precise appearing, defuzzified, "crisp" value.  




When implementing fuzzy logic control with human originated rules in the loop, we must have a way to assign some numeric value to humans' intuitive assessments of fuzzy sets.   We must translate from human fuzziness to numbers that can be used by a computer.   We do this by assigning fuzzy sub-set conditions a value from zero to 1.0.   In setting up a control system for room temperature, for example, we could assign a membership of "1.0" in the sub-set of "just right" when the temperature is 75 degrees F. Then, if the temperature drops to 70 degrees F, we might design the system for a membership in the "just right" sub-set of ".8".

Fuzzy logic makes use of human common sense.   This common sense is either applied from what seems reasonable, for a new system, or from experience, for a system that has previously had a human operator.

Here is an example of converting human experience for use in a control system:   In Italy, a project was undertaken to automate a cement plant.   Cement manufacturing is a lot more difficult than you would think.   Through the centuries it has evolved with human "feel" being absolutely necessary.   Engineers were not able to automate with conventional control.   Eventually, they translated the human "feel" into lots and lots of fuzzy logic "If-Then" rules based on human experience.   Success was thereby obtained in automating the plant.

[ Last edited by  blastoff at 3-2-2009 07:42 PM ]

mbhcsf

salam and hello again,

weii letih aih lepas ISO meeting , you know the drill ..kepada dok throbbing headache....  tak tau lah nak process apa lagi malam ni....

yep as long as the child's reaction is the same as the rest , but then absolute value / quality of that green attribute is , however will remain unknown to us. but our lad/ lass is ok...whooish ...he 's normal after all.


yeah that solvay conference is a marker for me actually, i bukan sesajer tanya tu...hehehe no actually the type of discussion we are having now is  JUST the same discussion i used to have in my thread at Science , technology and Maths board but now the board has change its name again. But yeah in teresting thread indeed. A person  did actually mention the Solvay Conference and Paul Dirac.

mbhcsf

close, but not exactly like that. uncertainty principle tu asalnya untuk some pairs of quantities, usual example is position vs momentum. the more sure u know about one, the less sure u know about the other. tapi last2 org applykan uncetainty principle ni untuk observation punya limit, pasal untuk observe atau measure sesuatu, kita kena probe dia, usual probe is cahaya. tapi bila photon tu langgar particle yg kita nak observe tu, particle tu affected due to our observation, tu pasal true value tu jadi uncertain. so, i guess u are right la hehehe  cuma uncertainty principle ni bukan about relative value of things, tapi about our ability to know some things exactly or not.

oh...it does not applicable in explaining the "why" we cannot get the absolute value of , say temperature of certain things hmmmbut it does applicable in studying ? subatomic+ quantum type - thingy , then . well..ok.

" ..our ability to know"  some things or not u said... >>>>> well, i still unsatisfied , to think about it again,  same goes with my example  jugaklah like :

"temperature" -  we  "might never know" how hot is Yoda ..err silap pulak heheheh....no I mean kalau that cute baby tu demam ( ni cth sopan sikit )  , let say dia kena flu la kan ,  but we could take the temperature  using thermometer ( but the usage of mercury is prohibited , Hg poisoning ( mercury = Hg) so kalau u notice semua dah tukaq jadi electronic stuffs lah ni ) yg mana it is also largely depended on the rate of expansion ... tapi ia relative value jugak lah kan ( relatif ker ? ya lah kan .) plus we NEVER know the true measurement of that litle cute baby punya body temp...in absolute certainty...so in  way , we just nee know  the true value ( yep nope aa.. aa nope ) of how sick the cute baby would be.

moving on from there...so those uncertainty principle could be applicable in place like CERN? accelarator  tu lah kot kan ...since I feel and i think you ae the person who have this body of physic - based knowledge ni, i just wondering why they are so into looking this subatomic particles?

what are the applicable and potential of this , apart from it being a passion for those quantum physicist ?

i would wonder...

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 3-2-2009 12:01 AM
tanya yoda la.... carry green colored laser, you must... hrrmm? hrrrmmmm??

dear , those phonemes kalau if u go by my field are just vocalisation of the sound u made out of the vocal folds...and consists of /h/  - glotal fricatives and /m/- bilabial nasal stops...wakaakk it should  be in words so that i could understand ......heheheheheheh

eh yoda ker obi wan
who came first ? Yoda ? obi wan?
green sabre kan dulu ... then blue then  DARTH - red....

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 3-2-2009 12:08 AM

hehehe..huiiiii benda ni yg paling payah nak buat. selalunya dalam kepala student kita berserabut dgn formula n fakta, dia ingat dia dah tau banyak, tapi bila suruh terangkan konsep, dia tengge ...

budak kita mmg macam tu , suruh define psychology pun depa dok asyik hafai tok nenek nota senior depa , i remmeber my first  class in M'sia ...ya ALLAH....awat dia hafal  and jawab macam tu...txbook sentences...they cannot rephrase it to the  simplest form...tu belum tanya thinking question  lagi...rigid gak..

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 3-2-2009 12:27 AM


hehe takde lah... saja je nak a/s/l

apa tu  u trying to type  /ask/ = [ as ] = phonetic transcription ker?

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 3-2-2009 12:36 AM
ni dah kira multivariate analysis pulak. nak contoh yg simple boleh rujuk kat website ni, macamana dia extend from 1 variable ke many variables.. http://mathematica.ludibunda.ch/fuzzy-logic6.html

alamak ni amygdala hijacking ni ...biostats   apa bendatu ..carilah ....hehehhhe

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 3-2-2009 12:51 AM
betullah tu apa yg kau cakap tu, memang sebagai mukjizat. cuma aku berfikir along kata2 saidina ali; lebihkurang 'kalau dibawa syurga dan neraka depan para sahabat sekarang ni, iman mereka dah t ...

ntah lah ...apa? tang mana extremist nyer just by the mentioning of kemudaratan etc tec ?

anyway ..apa apa pun dari ALLAH jer lah ....

mbhcsf

Human beings have the ability to take in and evaluate all sorts of information from the physical world they are in contact with and to mentally analyze, average and summarize all this input data into an optimum course of action.   All living things do this, but humans do it more and do it better and have become the dominant species of the planet.


>>> sebab tu ALLAH letakkan manusia no. 1 .....

mbhcsf

jap naaa..i nak solat maghrib nanti i sambung balik