Ismail or Isyak ?!

While Christians in all parts of the world are celebrating Christmas Day today, I also happen to switch on the TV this morning and thousands are about to celebrate Hari Raya Korban come 2 Jan next year.

Now my point is here : "Who was commenmorated in the Raya Korban? Wasn't he Isyak or Ismail?" Just curious about this since it seems that Islam claims he was Ismail while Christianity claims that he was Isyak.

Can any of you religious intellects explain? Who got the original story - Bible or Koran? Who actually started all this unnecessary modification/confusion and for what purpose?

Nick_Perelman

Bible is based on evidence of whole Jewish nation and confirmed by tens of prophets. Islam is based on evidence of one man and not  confirmed by any prophet. What is more reliable?

barney50

Nick_Perelman,

You have your point and I agree with you.

hi5

Are you sure that Isyak in Christian?. As far that I know it was the same Ismail....

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 25-12-2006 08:10 AM
While Christians in all parts of the world are celebrating Christmas Day today, I also happen to switch on the TV this morning and thousands are about to celebrate Hari Raya Korban come 2 Jan next  ...

As far as Bible concern, it was Isac not Ismael. The so called Ismael sacrifice was made up story by so called prophet of peace Muhammad. Not forgetting, the so called prophet of peace claimed seen dead prophets in layer of sky  and talk to allah by riding the so called mystical animal. hence, the so called prophet of peace is not trustworthy  to believed. simple as that.


btw, we do not need observed such silly ritual of sacrifice animals because we can sacrifice ourself to God in faith......because God tested Abraham faith so it is faith that God look at us not those show off sacrifice of animals.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 25-12-2006 02:33 PM


btw,if u can really do we do not need observed such silly ritual of sacrifice animals because we can sacrifice ourself to God in faith ......because God tested Abraham faith so it is faith that God look at us not those show off sacrifice of animals.

if that what your god really look at u, then why dont u do that??

dont you have faith on your god?


:lebai:

karengkang

a good article to read and understand

Was Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed?

This article is a summary to many dialogs between Christians (C) and Muslims (M).

M. Why did Isma'il (Ishmael) and his mother Hajar (Hagar) leave Sarrah?

C. After Isaac was weaned, his mother Sarah saw Ishmael mocking him. After that, she didn't want Ishmael to be heir with her son Isaac: Genesis 21:8-10: "And the child grew, and was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham: 'Cast out this bondwoman and her son, for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."'

M. Isaac was about two years old when he was weaned. Ishmael was then sixteen years is the profile of a baby, not of a teenager. So Ishmael and his mother Hagar left Sarah long before Isaac was born. According to the Islamic version, Abraham took Ishmael and Hagar and made a new settlement in Makkah, called Paran in the Bible (Genesis 21:21), because of a divine instruction given to Abraham as a part of God's plan. Hagar ran seven times between two hills, Safa and Marwa, looking for water. This is the origin of one of the rituals that is performed during the pilgrimage to Makkah. The well of water mentioned in Genesis 21:19 is still present and is known as called Zamzam. Both Abraham and Ishmael later built the Ka'bah in Makkah. The spot where Abraham used to perform prayers near the Ka'bah is still present and is known as the Maqam Ibrahim, i.e., the Station of Abraham. During the pilgrimage, pilgrims in Makkah and Muslims all over the world commemorate the offering of Abraham and Ishmael by slaughtering cattle.

C. But the Bible mentions that Isaac was to be sacrificed.

M. The Islamic version states that the covenant between God, Abraham, and his only son Ishmael was made and sealed when Ishmael was supposed to be sacrificed. On the very same day, Abraham, Ishmael, and all the men of Abraham's household were circumcised. At that time, Isaac had not even born: Genesis 17:24-27: "And Abraham was ninety years old and nine when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."

A year later, Isaac was born and circumcised when he was eight days old: Genesis 21:4-5: "And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him." So when the covenant was made and sealed (circumcision and sacrifice) Abraham was ninety-nine and Ishmael was thirteen. Isaac was born a year later, when Abraham was one hundred years old.

As you know, Kedar is a descendent of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael is the the base for the Family Tree of Prophet Muhammad through Kedar. The followers of Ishmael, Prophet Muhammad and all Muslims, remain faithful until today to this covenant of circumcision. In their five daily prayers, Muslims include the praise of Abraham and his followers with the praise of Muhammad and his followers.

C. But in Genesis 22 it is mentioned that Isaac was to be sacrificed.

M. I know, but you will see the contradiction there. It is mentioned "shine only son Isaac." Shouldn't it be "shine only son Ishmael," when Ishmael was thirteen years old and Isaac had not even been born? When Isaac was born, Abraham had two sons. Because of chauvinism, the name of Ishmael was changed to Isaac in all of Genesis 22. But God has preserved the word "only" to show us what it should have been.

The words "I will multiply thy seed" in Genesis 22:17 was applied earlier to Ishmael in Genesis 16:10. Was not the whole of Genesis 22 applicable to Ishmael then? "I will make him a great nation" has been repeated twice for Ishmael in Genesis 17:20 and Genesis 16:10: "And the angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude."'

Genesis 17:20: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Genesis 21:13: "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."

Genesis 21:18: "Arise, lift up the lad [Ishmael], and hold him in shine hand, for I will make him a great nation."

Deuteronomy 21:15-17: "If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." Islam does not deny God's blessings on Isaac and his descendants, but the son of promise is Ishmael, from whom arose Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.

C. Can you prove that Jews changed the name of Ishmael to Isaac because of chauvinism?

M. The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn 'Abd al-Aziz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar, the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.


Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').

The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned hadith literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:

Another proof of our speech [i.e., that sacrificed was Ishmael (P)] is reported by Ibn Ishaaq: "Muhammad Ibn Ka'b narrated that 'Umar Ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz sent for a man who had been a Jew then converted to Islam and showed signs of true Islam. [Before his conversion], he was one of their scholars [i.e., he was a Jewish scholar] So he [i.e., 'Umar] asked him: which son did Abraham (P) sacrifice? He replied: 'It is Ishmael(P). By God, O Commander of the Believers, the Jews know that but they envy you - the Arabs.'


C. But Ishmael was an illegitimate son.

M. That is what you say, but not what the Bible states. How could such a great prophet as Abraham have an illegal wife and a son out of wedlock!

Genesis 16:3: "... and [Sarah] gave her [Hager] to her husband Abram to be his wife." If the marriage was legal, how could their offspring be illegal? Is a marriage between two foreigners, a Chaldean and an Egyptian, not more legal than a marriage between a man with a daughter of his father? Whether it was a lie of Abraham or not, it is stated in Genesis 20:12: "And yet indeed she [Sarah] is my sister, she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."

The name Ishmael was also chosen by Allah Himself: Genesis 16:11: "And the Angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction."' Ishmael means "God hears." Where in the Bible is it written that Ishmael was an illegitimate son?

C. Nowhere.

M. Long before both Ishmael and Isaac were born, Allah made a covenant with Abraham:

Genesis 15:18: "... saying Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the Euphrates." Doesn't the greater part of Arabia lie between the Nile and the Euphrates, where all the descendants of Ishmael settled at a later date?

Do you see also the difference that Abraham was called "a stranger" in Canaan but not in the land between the Nile and the Euphrates? As a Chaldean, he was more Arab than Jew.

That covenant was made with Abraham and Ishmael:

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Nick_Perelman

1) Isaac together with Abraham and Sarah lived in land of Canaan till their death, while Ishmael with his mom were kicked. This is fact that even Muslims cant deny. And they can explain why it happaned.

2) Isaacs descendants maintained monotheism and teachings of Abraham, while Ishmael's became pagans. Another fact Muslims cant deny and cant explain.

C. Can you prove that Jews changed the name of Ishmael to Isaac because of chauvinism?

M. The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn 'Abd al-Aziz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar, the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.

Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').

The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned hadith literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:

Another proof of our speech [i.e., that sacrificed was Ishmael (P)] is reported by Ibn Ishaaq: "Muhammad Ibn Ka'b narrated that 'Umar Ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz sent for a man who had been a Jew then converted to Islam and showed signs of true Islam. [Before his conversion], he was one of their scholars [i.e., he was a Jewish scholar] So he [i.e., 'Umar] asked him: which son did Abraham (P) sacrifice? He replied: 'It is Ishmael(P). By God, O Commander of the Believers, the Jews know that but they envy you - the Arabs.'

Arab fairy tales are considered as proof? LOOL

Several additional notes:

1) Paran is located in Sinai, not in Makkah. How could Hagar with her son pass 1000 miles in desert?

2) Idea that 100 + years old Abraham traveled 1000 miles away to  Mecca and build there some Kaaba and then returned back is absurd. Not talking that Kaaba was build over thousand years after Abraham and served as pagan shrine.

3) There is no any proof that Mohammad is a descendant of Ishmael. Even Muhammad himself never claimed that.

best wishes,
Nick

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 25-12-2006 02:33 PM

As far as Bible concern, it was Isac not Ismael. The so called Ismael sacrifice was made up story by so called prophet of peace Muhammad. Not forgetting, the so called prophet of peace claimed seen dead prophets in layer of sky  and talk to allah by riding the so called mystical animal. hence, the so called prophet of peace is not trustworthy  to believed. simple as that.

Sounds like fairy tales to me.  i mean d words like layered sky, sky-high  riding, mystical animal are just fun reading. Would appreciate it very much if you could just quote to me where on earth was this written? Either he made up stories or he was under the influenced of unknown evil forces. So I hope when U mention this, U urself is not the 1 who is making up stories or trying to 損lay-play

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 25-12-2006 10:50 PM
1) Isaac together with Abraham and Sarah lived in land of Canaan till their death, while Ishmael with his mom were kicked. This is fact that even Muslims cant deny. And they can explain why it happ ...

Psalms 84:5-6
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


Psalm 84:6
6. Happy are those who find refuge in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrim roads.
7. As they pass through the Baca valley, they find spring water to drink. Also from pools the Lord provides water for those who lose their way.
Where does this all point to?  Mecca , where pilgrims go every year, and the very obvious Zam Zam water.


Qur'an 3:96-97
96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
97 In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures.

Genesis 21:17-21
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.



Very good explanation of the Kaaba and its history

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

[ Last edited by  Iman_6 at 26-12-2006 12:41 PM ]

We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; S. 4:163 Pickthall


The story of Ishmael is mentioned in the Book prior to the Holy Quran. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet. He used to enjoin Prayer and alms-giving on his people, and he was well pleasing to his Lord. S. 19:54-55, 58 Sher Ali


Say ye, `We believe in ALLAH and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob and his children and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them; and to HIM we submit ourselves.' S. 2:136 Sher Ali


Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. S. 3:84 Pickthall

Truth.8

[quote]Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 26-12-2006 12:30 PM


Sounds like fairy tales to me.  i mean d words like layered sky, sky-high  riding, mystical animal are just fun reading. Would appreciate it very much if you could just quote to me where on earth was this written? Either he made up stories or he was under the influenced of unknown evil forces. So I hope when U mention this, U urself is not the 1 who is making up stories or trying to 損lay-play

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 26-12-2006 12:30 PM

Well, i think it is just symbolic. they still celebrate it today to remember or to have that spirit of celebrating but in a more meaningful way. By the way, do they really eat these "slaughtered  goats or buffaloes" kah? If they do, then sorry to say : " It's a  disgusting act !"

we need faith not those show off.

Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 25-12-2006 09:17 AM
Bible is based on evidence of whole Jewish nation and confirmed by tens of prophets. Islam is based on evidence of one man and not  confirmed by any prophet. What is more reliable?

But Mohammad is the founder of Islam. You mention "man" & just one man, but isn't he a prophet too?

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 26-12-2006 01:42 PM

we need faith not those show off.

showing off is no good. itz a waste of time! it's just external. some of those people in the streets may have better purerr hearts than these bloody hypocrite swines ! whoeverlah...regardless of religious backgrounds. Anyway, you have not quote to me where or which passages these "arabian nites tales" exist ? just quote. am just too eager to know or r u makng up stories too?

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 26-12-2006 01:35 PM


[quote]yup, it like harry porter story. if moh  would to live now, he can be famous movie marker. u can google and find out muhammad riding mystical animla the buraq ( half human  and half animal) while going on miraq. just google it and u have nice bed time story..

this is very serious, man! what if they deceive the whole world through its teaching? i wonder what other serious ones are in store for those who are naive. bdw, is jihad a fairy tale ...turn so ugly when they implement it in 911. yah la, fly high in d sky & rammed d wtc tower. these people if they do on their own or as terrosists is quite ok BUT, yes but if its part of JIHAD, then, even ordinary people (non-terrorist) can even do so. perhaps, they r rewarded for doing 'jihad'. right or not?

no wonder why his uncle never convert to islam because he found some fishy abt muhammad stories.

who's his uncle? he should rebuked him, u know. very bad guy ah this moh. wonder where he's residing now - hell or heaven?

rurouni_khairul

For me both are honourable prophets and descendants of Abraham PBUH....can any of our Christian friends here show their Muslims bretheren any other place in the face of the earth with the significant story of Abraham PBUH and his son Ishmael PBUH beside Mecca?

The story of Abraham PBUH in Mecca is not brought during the time of Muhammad PBUH but every Meccans knew before the prophethood of Muhammad PBUH that the city was originated from Ishmael PBUH and Hagar PBUH while Abraham and his son later on created the first prayer house in the world which is the Kaabah.

If the other party cannot show any other place in this world with this features? Then the other party must have created a different version for their own self interest for thousands of years before the time of Muhammad PBUH and Muhammad PBUH as the last prophet is sent to clarify all this corrupted stories before Judgment Day.

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 26-12-2006 05:46 PM

this is very serious, man! what if they deceive the whole world through its teaching? i wonder what other serious ones are in store for those who are naive. bdw, is jihad a fairy tale ...turn so ugly when they implement it in 911. yah la, fly high in d sky & rammed d wtc tower. these people if they do on their own or as terrosists is quite ok BUT, yes but if its part of JIHAD, then, even ordinary people (non-terrorist) can even do so. perhaps, they r rewarded for doing 'jihad'. right or not?

yup, all those once upon story but too bad many believing this kind story. u can read here : Isra and Mi'raj

some says it dream but other believed this so called story.

u can google under isra and miraj...u shocked to hear all those story which suit for bed time sleep.

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 26-12-2006 05:46 PM

who's his uncle? he should rebuked him, u know. very bad guy ah this moh. wonder where he's residing now - hell or heaven...

if i am not mistaken his uncle name abu talib....never he convert to islam. He was orphaned at an early age and then raised by his uncle Abu Talib.

the only good thing abt muhammad is that he never drank alcohol, although drinking was widespread in Arabian society at that time....maybe he did or did not ....me not sure.

Truth.8

Originally posted by Mat`Roket at 26-12-2006 05:46 PM
wonder where he's residing now - hell or heaven?

maybe in layer of sky with all the dead prophets and talking to allah , i guess?