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wkk5159 posted on 13-11-2014 09:36 AM 
Debunk with ease ..???
As usual sissy delusional ustazy like you just live in your own world of self deception.
What ? Cant stomach the truth that your vile religion champion in beasty reproduction with 4 wives ??? How many wives did that vilest founder of your religion had ???(plus one minor Aishah@6yrs old... )
Nah, don't accuse others of having children out of wedlock lah you pathetic ignorant, your muslim@Australoid brethrens champion other races in having most bastards, incest and rape cases in this country, that's the fact and nothing but the fact.
How entertaining when i got entertained again seeing you pretending to be a scholar of Bible again, you just reinforce your imbecility and poor deceptive skill everytime you futilely try to intepret the Bible, spiritual devoid Mu_Ham_Mad follower like you just incompatible with sacred Bible.
Do you even have access to news and what happen in the world ?
Oops , sorry my bad. I didn't debunked you with ease. I debunked you without any effort. I really don't know why you are making it so easy for me by bringing up already refuted arguments. Can you provide me with a bit more challenge?
Huh? 4 wives. As far as I know , the Quran recommendation is 1 wife per Quran4:3. However the bible in mat19:9 permits unlimited polygny ; bible NIV
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Read carefully , it states of divorcing and marrying another. Polygny means NOT divorcing and marrying another. No limit to number of wives in Christianity.
Ha ha , the minor in Aishah? The bible support of such marriage in exe16:6-8 ; bible NIV
6 “‘Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, “Live!”[a]
7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.
8 “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine.
Indirectly , are you now telling me that your bible is wrong? Wait , wait .... wait , there is more. The bible teaches you that you can marry a 3 yrs old baby per the example of biblical Isaac and Rebekah. Just back calculate their ages - gen17:17 , gen22:23 , gen23:1 , gen25:20 ; bible NIVgen17:17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?”
gen22:23 Bethuel became the father of Rebekah. Milkah bore these eight sons to Abraham’s brother Nahor.
gen23:1 Sarah lived to be a hundred and twenty-seven years old.
gen25:20 and Isaac was forty years old when he married Rebekah daughter of Bethuel the Aramean from Paddan Aram[c] and sister of Laban the Aramean.
Biblical Isaac was born when biblical Sarah was 90 yrs old. She died at 127 yrs old which makes biblical Isaac to be 37 yrs old. However biblical Rebekah was born at that time. At the age of 40 , biblical Isaac married biblical Rebekah. What was biblical Rebekah's age? You are right - 3 years old. LOL , she was just a baby. However such is OK with a religious / racist Christian bigot like you. Do you now have a problem with the bible? Lets see how you answer this. Hmmm , you would probably run. Ha ha ....
This is so funny. You want to compare the rape / incest cases between Christians and Muslims? I don't think you would want to venture there as the data would embarrass the shit out of you.
You agree with me? One of the main reasons that Christian birthrate is declining is because of the increasing trend of that Christians living together out of wedlock thus not wanting babies and the increasing homosexual community within Christianity (psst - you the former or latter). Ha ha , like I stated - don't blame others for the weakness in christianity.
Hmm , it appears that you are the one living in a cave not knowing what is happening in this world. Aiyoo!! How can I forget , you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out your wet dreams .... ha ha.
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Author |
Post time 13-11-2014 03:40 PM
From the mobile phone
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Stay tune guys, i'm busy with my cases at the moment, see how i kick the transexual ass of that sissy shemale ustazy when i'm free later....:lol |
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wkk5159 posted on 13-11-2014 03:40 PM
Stay tune guys, i'm busy with my cases at the moment, see how i kick the transexual ass of that sissy shemale ustazy when i'm free later....:lol
Translation : I am looking for exit paths trying to run. In the meantime I am trying to see whether there are any answers for me at 'answering Islam' or 'faithfreedom' websites.
BTW , punishment for apostacy in the New Testament , joh15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Literalist would consider this verse to mean death by burning .... ie. like what happened to the witches. In context , it can mean taking the life of the apostate from Christianity.
Oops , you don't know of such verse? You being a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out your wet dreams. LOL .....
Last edited by sam1528 on 13-11-2014 05:37 PM
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wkk5159 posted on 13-11-2014 09:47 AM
See we have a sissy deceptive ustazy, a fish brained moslem and a rosy transvestite-like moslem he ...
Weak mindlike u can only use adjactive, when throwing tantrums.
Well , epic phrase 'just common sights' haha
How funny.
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sam1528 posted on 13-11-2014 02:05 PM
Oops , sorry my bad. I didn't debunked you with ease. I debunked you without any effort. I really ...
Debunk me without any effort ????....
This sissy ustazy is obviously trying very hard to boast about his ability in order to conceal his inferiority.
Why still digging from that terrorist operated website answering_christianity to counter my point ? You just recycle the same already refuted rancid argument; let me see, Num 31: 17-18,
This verse specifically refers to the Midianites and it is not a guide to behavior towards any other people or wars in the future. Numbers 25 tells how the Midianites, specifically the women, led the Israelites astray into worshiping the idol Baal, and kindled G-ds anger so that He struck the Israelites with a plague, which only ended when Pinchas, the grandson of Aaron, killed an Israelite man and the Midianite woman he brought into his family (Numbers 25:6-9).
That's why the women 'who had lain with man' were to be killed but the ones whom hadn't were spared. Moses was concerned that the Midianite women 'who had lain with men', including Israelites would corrupt the Hebrew nation and lead them into sin and idolatry again.
This verse also implies ('save alive for yourselves') that the Isrealites took the Midianite virgins as spoils and sex slaves. Nothing could be further from the truth.
For one thing, it would have been sinful for the Israelite men to rape the Midianite girls because rape was (and still is) abhorrent and sinful to G-d (Deuteronomy 22:23-28, esp. 25).
And secondly, the Torah, unlike the Qu'ran with its' 'What thy right hand possesses' doctrine (Qu'ran 4:24) specifically forbids such behavior.
In Deuteronomy 20-14, it states explicitly that female captives are NOT to be raped or sold into slavery but to shave their heads and cut their nails ( to make them less desirable to their captors) and are to be allowed 30 days to mourn without being enslaved,molested or coerced in any way - after which they are free to leave or to be married to their captors.
Only a truly perverse mentality would attempt to rationalize what's being done in the name of Islam by promulgating a vile lie about something that was actually an attempt to mitigate the fate of women captured in war and their status as booty.
The usual disclaimer..many Muslims likewise would never indulge in the sort of behavior characterized by Qu'ran 4:24 and numerous other places in the Qu'ran and Hadiths. But the fact remains that there is definitely a religious justification for this treatment of women, especially non-Muslims, and that a substantial number of Muslims adhere to that interpretation of Islam, including many prominent imams, Qaddis, clerics and scholars of both Sunni and Shi'te Islam.
Before i forget, on the paedophilic issue of Isaac and Rebecca, why this not so intelligent sissy ustazy want to drag in the story of these 2 fallible figures in Torah and Old Testament to further discredit his own Quran ? Don't muslims claim to be people of the book and believe in Torah ? No, wait a minute, Quran is not Abrahamic religion at all, it is fantasy of Allah(satan) inspired Mu-Ham-Mad in 7th century...
Of course the actual age of Rebecca is subject to debate, can a 3 yrs old draw water from well and feed the camel ??? 
But unlike Christianity and Buddhism, the founder of Islam (self claiming greatest prophet somemore...) is a pure pervert and paedophile, he married a 6 yrs old Aishah and fucked her when she was 9 yrs old.
Shamelessness is bad, Stupidity is worse.....but for sissy ustazy shamelessness and stupidity are blissful combination for him....no it's himher.
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wkk5159 posted on 14-11-2014 12:16 PM
Debunk me without any effort ????....
This sissy ustazy is obviously trying very hard to boast about his ability in order to conceal his inferiority.
Why still digging from that terrorist operated website answering_christianity to counter my point ? You just recycle the same already refuted rancid argument; let me see, Num 31: 17-18,
This verse specifically refers to the Midianites and it is not a guide to behavior towards any other people or wars in the future. Numbers 25 tells how the Midianites, specifically the women, led the Israelites astray into worshiping the idol Baal, and kindled G-ds anger so that He struck the Israelites with a plague, which only ended when Pinchas, the grandson of Aaron, killed an Israelite man and the Midianite woman he brought into his family (Numbers 25:6-9).
That's why the women 'who had lain with man' were to be killed but the ones whom hadn't were spared. Moses was concerned that the Midianite women 'who had lain with men', including Israelites would corrupt the Hebrew nation and lead them into sin and idolatry again.
This verse also implies ('save alive for yourselves') that the Isrealites took the Midianite virgins as spoils and sex slaves. Nothing could be further from the truth.
For one thing, it would have been sinful for the Israelite men to rape the Midianite girls because rape was (and still is) abhorrent and sinful to G-d (Deuteronomy 22:23-28, esp. 25).
And secondly, the Torah, unlike the Qu'ran with its' 'What thy right hand possesses' doctrine (Qu'ran 4:24) specifically forbids such behavior.
In Deuteronomy 20-14, it states explicitly that female captives are NOT to be raped or sold into slavery but to shave their heads and cut their nails ( to make them less desirable to their captors) and are to be allowed 30 days to mourn without being enslaved,molested or coerced in any way - after which they are free to leave or to be married to their captors.
Only a truly perverse mentality would attempt to rationalize what's being done in the name of Islam by promulgating a vile lie about something that was actually an attempt to mitigate the fate of women captured in war and their status as booty.
The usual disclaimer..many Muslims likewise would never indulge in the sort of behavior characterized by Qu'ran 4:24 and numerous other places in the Qu'ran and Hadiths. But the fact remains that there is definitely a religious justification for this treatment of women, especially non-Muslims, and that a substantial number of Muslims adhere to that interpretation of Islam, including many prominent imams, Qaddis, clerics and scholars of both Sunni and Shi'te Islam.
Before i forget, on the paedophilic issue of Isaac and Rebecca, why this not so intelligent sissy ustazy want to drag in the story of these 2 fallible figures in Torah and Old Testament to further discredit his own Quran ? Don't muslims claim to be people of the book and believe in Torah ? No, wait a minute, Quran is not Abrahamic religion at all, it is fantasy of Allah(satan) inspired Mu-Ham-Mad in 7th century...
Of course the actual age of Rebecca is subject to debate, can a 3 yrs old draw water from well and feed the camel ??? 
But unlike Christianity and Buddhism, the founder of Islam (self claiming greatest prophet somemore...) is a pure pervert and paedophile, he married a 6 yrs old Aishah and fucked her when she was 9 yrs old.
Shamelessness is bad, Stupidity is worse.....but for sissy ustazy shamelessness and stupidity are blissful combination for him....no it's himher.
Ta da!! Again I have been proven right. You are just running around like a headless chicken copypasting without any understanding. Oops , how can I forget. You are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out your wet dreams.
Nobody brought up the issue of rape. Why all the sudden you bring up the issue of rape while citing Num 31: 17-18 , Numbers 25:6-9 and
Deuteronomy 22:23-28?
Anyways since you brought up the issue of rape , here goes :
Spoils of war are to be plundered (ie. can rape the women folks or the females regardless of age) , deut20:14 , bible NIV
As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
The price of raping a woman - 50 shekels and marry her. Apart from being traumatized , she must now marry the rapist. Lunacy at its best by the biblical God , deut22:28-29 , bible NIV
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Quran4:24? This verse is about marriage (ie. who you can marry). The said verse (sahih international) in bit part :
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation
Once one marry the slave , she becomes one's wife and a free woman.
LOL , this again is evidence that you don't understand what you read. Aiyoo , I keep on forgetting , you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams.
Does it matter if biblical Isaac / Rebekah were falliable figures? It is the context of the teaching of the bible that is in question here. If you are a Christian who accepts the inerrancy of the bible being the word of your God , then it is ok for you to marry and consummate the marriage with a 3 yrs old baby. Pedophilia might be too mild a word to describe a person like you who is in support of your bible with the husband and wife union between biblical Isaac(40) and biblical Rebekah(3). LOL , why can't a 3 year old draw water from a well for the camels to drink?
Ha ha , TQ again for condemning your own bible in exe16:7-8 when you condemn Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage with Aishah(ra). You agree that he consummated their marriage when she attained puberty at 9. The bible in exe16:7-8 stated that it is perfectly OK. Are you now trying to tell me that the bible is wrong with your violent objection?
Is the bible (the so called inerrent word of your Christian God) wrong? Yes or No. Ha ha , lets see how you try to run from answering either a simple yes or no.
Observe folks , our religious / racist christian bigot (a self confessed 'true professional and and expert in his field and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams) would run and never answer either a yes or no. LOL ....
Debunked without effort ...... Ha ha
Late entry : Still waiting for you to pinpoint where in the Quran that calls for the apostate to be killed. Still waiting .... tick tock , tick tock ...... sure got aaah?
Last edited by sam1528 on 14-11-2014 11:01 PM
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On dead penalty for apostasy in Islam, there are plenty of sources and hard evidences on the website, of course the more creditable website will be rejected by muslims for being apologists for Christianity but if one really pay attention to the genuine muslim sites, it actually nakedly speak out on death for apostates in Islam.
One such genuine muslim website is http://islamqa.info/en/20327
Here the quote from Syaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid, a genuine Islamic mullah unlike bogus mullah @ sam1528...
3 – What is the ruling on the apostate? If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims. The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676) See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180. Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority” [al-Nisa’ 4:59] And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
See guys, this is what really Islam teaches about apostasy and its consequences and not some elementary deception by a mullah wannabe sam1528...
Like i said, shamelessness is bad, stupidity is worse but for sissy mullah wannabe sam1528, it is a blissful combination.
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This sissy mullah wannabe sam1528 has been stripped naked by the truth....
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wkk5159 posted on 15-11-2014 07:38 AM
Debunk without effort again ???
This sissy transvestite ustazy just bring his inferiority complex to the next level....
Yawn.....he hasn't answered my core question, Is Mu-Ham-Mad, the founder of Islam a certified paedophile based on the historical fact he fXXX a 9 years old little girl ???
The answer is so obvious for all good Samaritans but this pervert sexual comforter for ISIS thinks otherwise, later he will sure evade answering by quoting some Bible verses which he has no idea what it means....
Like i said, shamelessness is bad, stupidity is worse, but for sissy tansvestite ustazy sam1528, it is a blissful combination.
LOL , I told you beforehand that you would run and never answer any of my questions. I am debunking you without any effort. I was hoping for you to provide a bit more challenge. Too bad so sad. Oops , I forget - you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams ..... ha ha
Ok then , Aishah(ra) was 9 and she already attained puberty when Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummated their marriage. What is your issue?
If you claim Prophet Muhammad(saw) was biblically wrong , eze16:7-8 stated that such is ok. Then you are just condemning your bible to be wrong. For the second time - Is your bible wrong? Yes or No ...... oops .... no answer
if you claim of secular laws , surprise surprise , its only 100 years ago that the age of consent was increased. Delaware had its standing age of consent at 7 yrs old. Go back 1500 years ago .... what do you get? This is because the 'western nations' only established the age of consent ~ 1880. Prof Stephen Robertson :
By 1880, the first date chosen, many western nations had established an age of consent for the first time, typically of 12 or 13 years. By 1920, when the influence of reform campaigns that established a new link between the age of consent and prostitution had run its course, most had revised their age upward
1880 1920 2007
Delaware 7 16 16
Which law or society norm did prophet Muhammad(saw) went against with his consummation of marriage with Aishah(ra) , 1500 years ago? Can you answer me factually. Prattle don't count yeah .... ha ha
Ha ha , you still have not answered me. Are you now disgusted with Christianity (your religion) that the bible teaches that you can marry a baby and have sex with her. This is per the biblical example of biblical Isaac(40) who married biblical Rebekah(3)? Yes or No
Lets see how you run again. LOL ...
Last edited by sam1528 on 15-11-2014 12:19 PM
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wkk5159 posted on 15-11-2014 08:01 AM
On dead penalty for apostasy in Islam, there are plenty of sources and hard evidences on the website, of course the more creditable website will be rejected by muslims for being apologists for Christianity but if one really pay attention to the genuine muslim sites, it actually nakedly speak out on death for apostates in Islam.
One such genuine muslim website is http://islamqa.info/en/20327
Here the quote from Syaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid, a genuine Islamic mullah unlike bogus mullah @ sam1528...
3 – What is the ruling on the apostate? If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims. The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676) See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180. Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority” [al-Nisa’ 4:59] And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
See guys, this is what really Islam teaches about apostasy and its consequences and not some elementary deception by a mullah wannabe sam1528...
Like i said, shamelessness is bad, stupidity is worse but for sissy mullah wannabe sam1528, it is a blissful combination.
LOL , you are again skirting around the issue. My question for the 3rd time : Can you point out where in the Quran that mandate for an apostate to be killed? Can you provide the verse.
What you have provided is just an opinion by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid which can easily be challenged. You quote him appealing to Sahih Bukhari with the famous quote : “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
Lets look at it in detail. Sahih Bukhari 9:54:87Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
My question to you. Who uttered the statement? Prophet Muhammad(saw) or Ibn Abbas(ra)? If it was Ibn Abbas(ra) , then he was paraphrasing what Prophet Muhammad(saw) stated. As stated in your link :
“It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)
What does leaving the community (splits from the jama'ah) in context mean at that time? It is leaving the muslim community and going back to the Quraish and fight against the muslims. This can be confirmed with another hadith , Sunan Abu Dawud Vol. 4, Number 4353 :
“The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) a married person who commits adultery; he is to be stoned and (2) a man who went out fighting against God and His Messenger; he is to be killed or crucified or exiled from the land and (3) a man who murders another person; he is to be killed on account of it.”
As in all hadiths , we confirm it with the Quran. In this case Quran5:33 (sahih International)
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
In other words , the death penalty is for apostates who then fight against the muslims.
It is so simple. All you need is a critical mind to understand what is a paraphrase and what is the actual words by Prophet Muhammad(saw). Caught you again , this time you exhibit very poor comprehension.
Aiyoo , I forgot - you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams.
To put the final nail into the coffin of your argument. Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not take any action against a peaceful apostate. Sahih Bukhari 9:89:316 Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the bedouin got a fever where upon he said to the Prophet "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge.' But the Prophet refused. Then (the bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said: "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."
My question again : Where in the Quran that calls for an apostate to be killed (this I mean a peaceful apostate)
LOL ..... debunked without effort
Since I am in a generous mood , the context to Sahih Bukhari 9:54:87 is Sahih Bukhari 9:54:57. It means just kill them but do not burn them to death.
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
In both hadiths 57/87 , Zanadiqa was mentioned. who were they? These were the followers of Ibn Saba (saba'iyya). They were the people who pretended to convert into Islam in order to instigate civil wars and strife. These were also the people who claim Caliph Ali(ra) was God Incarnate. Again I have the historical fact to back me:
Shi’ite Heritage: Essays on Classical and Modern Traditions, by Lynda Clarke, pp.9-10
Ibn Saba…[whose] activity began during the caliphate of Uthman when he travelled from Hijaz to Syria, stirr[ed] up unrest and rebellion in Egypt, Basrah, and Kufah and incit[ed] to the murder of the caliph by the Egyptian rebels…Ibn Saba was also responsible for the outbreak of fighting between the armies of Ali and Aisha at Basrah
This can be again be confirmed that the Quran criticize the people who pretended to revert to Islam in order to apostatize in the thick of things so that the morale of the muslim army could be weaken. Quran3:72 (sahih international)
And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion,
Tafseer Ibn Kathir on the said verse :
This is a wicked plan from the People of the Book to deceive Muslims who are weak in the religion. They decided that they would pretend to be believers in the beginning of the day, by attending the dawn prayer with the Muslims. However, when the day ended, they would revert to their old religion so that the ignorant people would say, "They reverted to their old religion because they uncovered some shortcomings in the Islamic religion.''
I win , you lose ..... again and again
Psst : Can you now pinpoint where in the Quran that calls for an apostate to be killed? LOL ... nothing from you so far but evading the issue ... poor you ....
Last edited by sam1528 on 15-11-2014 12:30 PM
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wkk5159 posted on 16-11-2014 10:07 AM
Sissy ustazy as his/her usual self is declaring self proclaimed victory and delights in blatant self deception....
"My question again : Where in the Quran that calls for an apostate to be killed (this I mean a peaceful apostate)
LOL ..... debunked without effort"
He again is hinting that not so peaceful apostates were to be killed in Islam, where on earth can we find any religion in the 21st still killing their apostates, be it peaceful or not ?? That's why what i revealed about Islam is truth and nothing but the truth and this has been certified true by the universal spoke person for Islam, sissy ustazy sam1528....
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” — Bukhari 9.84.57 ‘baddala deenahu, faqtuhulu’
LOL , prattling don't count. Are you incapable to deal with facts? Aiyoo , my bad , I forget - you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams.
You still owe everyone answers to the following
(1) Name 1 peaceful apostate who was executed in the history of Islam (in relation to your cartoon ..... well its a cartoon)
(2) Where in the Quran that calls for the execution of peaceful apostates (for that matter in the hadiths)
(3) Is the bible wrong in eze16:7-8 of its support in Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra)?
(4) Is the bible wrong that it teaches by example of prepubescent marriage (and sex) with biblical Isaac(40) who married biblical Rebekah(3)?
(5) Who uttered the phrase “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” - Prophet Muhammad(saw) or Ibn Abbas(ra)?
The list is getting longer and longer.
Observe folks , haters like this religious / racist christian bigot in the like of 'wkk5159' is just too scared to answer questions regarding the bible and Quran. However he dreams about trying to proselytize muslims. LOL .....
Again ..... debunked without effort .... no challenge at all ....
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More goodies....
Excerpts from article by Abdallah al-Araby http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy ... -religion-kill-him/Damage control has become one of their main objectives in modern societies. It’s not unusual for various types of contradictions to happen as they do so. This was recently demonstrated by some rulings made by Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. He is Egypt’s superior authority in charge of issuing official fatwas (Islamic religious rulings).
Ali Gomaa issued a wide range of opinions on critical issues of Islam such as Jihad, women’s status and the right of Muslims to change religions. News agencies around the world published them in multiple languages. In regard to a Muslim’s right to renounce Islam and to join another religion that is called apostasy, his initial rulings sounded lenient. The Washington Post-Newsweek forum in English was one of the forums that published his decisions. Here are excerpts from what he said on the issue of apostasy : “The essential question before us is : Can a person who is a Muslim choose a religion other than Islam ? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, ‘Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,’ (Quran 109:6) and, ‘Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosever will, let him disbelieve,’ (Quran18:29) and, ‘There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error’ (Quran 2:256).” He added, “These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious prospective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in Question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment.” He went on to state, “If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society…..According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.” My first reaction to these statements was that I thought they were balanced and reasonable. I had hopes that Islam was softening its extreme attitudes towards those who leave Islam. It seemed that the Grand Mufti was emphasizing that Muslims do have the freedom to change religions. He emphatically implied that such matters are personal, between man and his Creator. He also asserted that although such conversions are sinful, that God, rather than man, would enact the punishments in the Day of Judgment. He only cited one exception. It would be in instances wherein a person’s conversion to another faith had the potential to undermine the foundations of a society. In such cases he suggested that the courts should get involved to settle the issue. Although I was concerned about that exception, I dismissed it as unimportant. I couldn’t imagine how a person switching religions could be interpreted as an act that could undermine the foundation of an entire society. My hopes were soon shattered. A few days later, the Grand Mufti, issued another statement. This time he was speaking in Arabic in Cairo and what he said was completely different : “What I actually said was that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and it’s a crime that must be punished.” It was then that I realized that we had all been fooled, again. The Muslim strategy of only speaking half-truths was still alive and well. What is being said in places like Washington to English speaking groups is almost simultaneously retracted and rendered meaningless when they speak in Arabic in places like Cairo. What was originally presented as simply a rare and remote possible exception had become the general rule. Changing religions from Islam to another faith is interpreted as an act of apostasy. The Islamic mindset dictates that such apostasies can undermine the foundations of Muslim societies. It’s difficult for non-Muslims to understand how a personal decision to change one’s religion by one Muslim or even hundreds could undermine an entire Islamic society. And, assuming that it could, would denial of the facts change anything ? Apparently the grand Mufti thought so. However, he must have imagined that he achieved both of his goals. On one hand, it was to polish Islam’s image in the West ; and on the other, he spoke the truth about Islamic polices in the Islamic world. The only way that Islamists like the Mufti can continually get away with such deceptive maneuvers is for us to allow them to do so. There must be clarity about Islam’s consistent track record of doubletalk about thorny issues such as this one. Non-Muslims really need to know the truth about just what constitutes apostasy in the Muslim world. Tolerant Verses One of the most popular tactics that Muslims utilize to promote their religion is quotes from the portions of the Quran that Mohammad wrote while he headquartered in Mecca during the first years of Islam. In that stage of Islam’s development it was weak in numbers and influence. At that time he was trying to win the support of the Arabs by peaceful means. His attitudes and strategies completely changed after he moved to Medina. There his movement gained numbers and he was able to organize a strong army and to impose his religion by force. In order to cover the contradictions between the tone of the verses written in Mecca and those written in Medina, Mohammad came up with the doctrine of the abrogator and the abrogated. It nullifies the Quran’s Meccan revelations and replaces them with those of Medina. When Islamists quote the Mecca verses that sound peaceful and conciliatory they know full well that those verses have been rendered obsolete by the more recent Medinian verses. Here are some examples of the Mecca verses that they use : Say : O ye that reject Faith ! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine Sura 109 : 1-6 Say, “The truth is from your Lord” : Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it) : for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in : if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink ! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on ! Sura 19:29 Let there be no compulsion in religion : Truth stands out clear from Error : whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things . Sura 2:256 What do the Quran and Hadith really teach about Apostasy ? In the Quran Most Quranic references deal with how God looks on apostates and how he is going to punish them in the Day of Judgment. The first verse has an indirect inference about apostasy, but nonetheless is used by Muslims as a basis for punishing apostates The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is : execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land : that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter ; Sura 5:33 But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted ; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. Sura 3:90 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. Sura 16:106 Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. Sura 4:137 In the Hadith Ibn Abbaas said : The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.” Al-Bukhary (number 6922)
Ooops !
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wkk5159 posted on 16-11-2014 01:11 PM
More goodies....
Excerpts from article by Abdallah al-Araby http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy ... -religion-kill-him/Damage control has become one of their main objectives in modern societies. It’s not unusual for various types of contradictions to happen as they do so. This was recently demonstrated by some rulings made by Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. He is Egypt’s superior authority in charge of issuing official fatwas (Islamic religious rulings).
Ali Gomaa issued a wide range of opinions on critical issues of Islam such as Jihad, women’s status and the right of Muslims to change religions. News agencies around the world published them in multiple languages. In regard to a Muslim’s right to renounce Islam and to join another religion that is called apostasy, his initial rulings sounded lenient. The Washington Post-Newsweek forum in English was one of the forums that published his decisions. Here are excerpts from what he said on the issue of apostasy : “The essential question before us is : Can a person who is a Muslim choose a religion other than Islam ? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, ‘Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,’ (Quran 109:6) and, ‘Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosever will, let him disbelieve,’ (Quran18:29) and, ‘There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error’ (Quran 2:256).” He added, “These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious prospective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in Question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment.” He went on to state, “If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society…..According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.” My first reaction to these statements was that I thought they were balanced and reasonable. I had hopes that Islam was softening its extreme attitudes towards those who leave Islam. It seemed that the Grand Mufti was emphasizing that Muslims do have the freedom to change religions. He emphatically implied that such matters are personal, between man and his Creator. He also asserted that although such conversions are sinful, that God, rather than man, would enact the punishments in the Day of Judgment. He only cited one exception. It would be in instances wherein a person’s conversion to another faith had the potential to undermine the foundations of a society. In such cases he suggested that the courts should get involved to settle the issue. Although I was concerned about that exception, I dismissed it as unimportant. I couldn’t imagine how a person switching religions could be interpreted as an act that could undermine the foundation of an entire society. My hopes were soon shattered. A few days later, the Grand Mufti, issued another statement. This time he was speaking in Arabic in Cairo and what he said was completely different : “What I actually said was that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and it’s a crime that must be punished.” It was then that I realized that we had all been fooled, again. The Muslim strategy of only speaking half-truths was still alive and well. What is being said in places like Washington to English speaking groups is almost simultaneously retracted and rendered meaningless when they speak in Arabic in places like Cairo. What was originally presented as simply a rare and remote possible exception had become the general rule. Changing religions from Islam to another faith is interpreted as an act of apostasy. The Islamic mindset dictates that such apostasies can undermine the foundations of Muslim societies. It’s difficult for non-Muslims to understand how a personal decision to change one’s religion by one Muslim or even hundreds could undermine an entire Islamic society. And, assuming that it could, would denial of the facts change anything ? Apparently the grand Mufti thought so. However, he must have imagined that he achieved both of his goals. On one hand, it was to polish Islam’s image in the West ; and on the other, he spoke the truth about Islamic polices in the Islamic world. The only way that Islamists like the Mufti can continually get away with such deceptive maneuvers is for us to allow them to do so. There must be clarity about Islam’s consistent track record of doubletalk about thorny issues such as this one. Non-Muslims really need to know the truth about just what constitutes apostasy in the Muslim world. Tolerant Verses One of the most popular tactics that Muslims utilize to promote their religion is quotes from the portions of the Quran that Mohammad wrote while he headquartered in Mecca during the first years of Islam. In that stage of Islam’s development it was weak in numbers and influence. At that time he was trying to win the support of the Arabs by peaceful means. His attitudes and strategies completely changed after he moved to Medina. There his movement gained numbers and he was able to organize a strong army and to impose his religion by force. In order to cover the contradictions between the tone of the verses written in Mecca and those written in Medina, Mohammad came up with the doctrine of the abrogator and the abrogated. It nullifies the Quran’s Meccan revelations and replaces them with those of Medina. When Islamists quote the Mecca verses that sound peaceful and conciliatory they know full well that those verses have been rendered obsolete by the more recent Medinian verses. Here are some examples of the Mecca verses that they use : Say : O ye that reject Faith ! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine Sura 109 : 1-6 Say, “The truth is from your Lord” : Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it) : for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in : if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink ! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on ! Sura 19:29 Let there be no compulsion in religion : Truth stands out clear from Error : whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things . Sura 2:256 What do the Quran and Hadith really teach about Apostasy ? In the Quran Most Quranic references deal with how God looks on apostates and how he is going to punish them in the Day of Judgment. The first verse has an indirect inference about apostasy, but nonetheless is used by Muslims as a basis for punishing apostates The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is : execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land : that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter ; Sura 5:33 But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted ; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. Sura 3:90 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. Sura 16:106 Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. Sura 4:137 In the Hadith Ibn Abbaas said : The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.” Al-Bukhary (number 6922)
Ooops !
<< 'wkk5159' after realizing that he don't know that Quran2:256 was a Medinian verse .... ha ha
LOL , another cut and paste without understanding. Appears that most or all of your arguments are just cut paste without understanding. Oops , I forget again - you are a self confessed 'true professional and an expert in your field' and a wannabe tough guy acting out his wet dreams.
Anyways refer to the bolded portion of your argument. So now you agree that verses in the Quran is all about religious freedom. TQ , you now confirm that the death penalty is for the people who wage war against Islam. Come to think of it , the instigators of war always had the death penalty in the history of the world. See ..... the truth of the Quran in action.
Ta Da!! Now you try to argue about the Meccan verses being abrogated by the Medinian verses. This again shows that you do not know what you are talking about because you are appealing to people who don't know what they are talking about. The verse of Quran2:256 (sahih international)
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
is a Medinian verse when Prophet Muhammad(saw) and the muslims were more powerful than the Quraish.
Prof John Esposito (Georgetown University) :
Equally problematic is the Pope’s statement that the Qur’anic passage, “There is no compulsion in religion” (Qur’an 2:256) was revealed in the early years of Muhammad’s prophethood in Mecca, a period “when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]” but was overtaken later when he ruled Medina by “instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran [Qur’an], concerning holy war.”Both these statements are incorrect. Qur’an 2:256 is not an early Meccan verse but is itself from the later Medinan period
Oops , the argument of Meccan vs Medinian verses just went up in smoke.
Ha ha , debunked without effort again and again. This is just too easy ....
The questions that you have been evading :
(1) Name 1 peaceful apostate who was executed in the history of Islam (in relation to your cartoon ..... well its a cartoon)
(2) Where in the Quran that calls for the execution of peaceful apostates (for that matter in the hadiths)
(3) Is the bible wrong in eze16:7-8 of its support in Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra)?
(4) Is the bible wrong that it teaches by example of prepubescent marriage (and sex) with biblical Isaac(40) who married biblical Rebekah(3)?
(5) Who uttered the phrase “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” - Prophet Muhammad(saw) or Ibn Abbas(ra)? Oops , now you agree that it was Ibn Abbas who uttered the phrase. Any reason why muslims should follow Ibn Abbas. In addition , I thought I provided the context to the hadith. You were scared to read it , yes? Faith shattering isn't it?
This is just too easy ..... ha ha
Last edited by sam1528 on 16-11-2014 04:26 PM
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sam1528 posted on 15-11-2014 12:01 PM
LOL , you are again skirting around the issue. My question for the 3rd time : Can you point out wh ...
Brilliant points...there. |
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Post time 13-11-2014 02:05 PM
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