[MERGED]-Debmey: SHOW PROOF THAT PROPHET MOHAMMAD IS A PAEDOPHILE?

Png_Prince

Just reminder and no penalty ? Hmmmmm

Png_Prince

Originally posted by Debmey at 29-5-2007 11:03 AM
There is no way you can snake away from the topic sir.

The topic here is Mo's paedophilia as proven by the haidths.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her)  ...

Number One: Aishah's age.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

Number Two:  Aishah aged 15 at the battle of `Uhud.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic.

i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."

i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."

Number Three: Asma older than Aisha by 10 years.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required are provided below:

According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

Number Four: For Asma's age at Her Death in 73 AH.
According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

Number Five: Aishah accepts Islam during the first year of Islam.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab  (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam. (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

Number Six: Aishah the BIKR.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah  (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

Number Seven: Aishah was five years younger than Fatimah.
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference below:

i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

Number Eight: Aishah and Jubayr.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am  refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
As reported by: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah

What u see from the above hadiths ? R u blind or on denial ?

Debmey

yes prince, please do something new and better than fuzzy.
You still cannot back up your wild assumptions with primary evidence that aisha was born 6 years before teh hijrah. All that cut and paste of yours is useless sir.

Png_Prince

Yes debmey, u too cut and paste in this whole thread. So whats wrong with my cut n paste. Cant u do better debmey ?

Debmey

There is nothing wrong with cut and paste if it shows actual evidence. Yours don't show any evidence but have been countered by me many times over and it seems you have no defence to my simple counters. Repaeting them only shows uo bad on you and on islam.

look man, if you are so ashamed of muhamd's paedophilia, why bother with islam, why not stop wasting your precious life and quickly leave islam?

cheers

Png_Prince

Its nothing wrong if i paste evidence to show you the contradiction regarding aisya's age here. What im trying to tell is the age of aisya contradict. U only repeat like a rotten parrot and it shows how much desparate you are here. Why should i be ashamed of my beloved prophet.

You just ashamed so much abt ur religion till the extent you afraid even to reveal ur sect in christianity. Which one ? Catholic ? Prostestant ? Why u afraid and ashamed to reveal ? Coz u live in uncertainty.

Debmey

your alledged contradiction is based on a wild assumption that you cannot back up.

its no use of you trying to detract or spam, you can never change islam or wear me out. I have been here since 2000 and met so many more muslims like you who tried to spam me out, they all failed sir. At least one of them left islam instead cos he realised what islam is all about after much interaction with me.

cheers

Png_Prince

What u mean by wild assumption ? I have shown u proofs, but u put a blind eye. So its not my problem. U talk about spamming ? See urself who spam this thread. U dont know anything about ur own religion, thats why u r ashamed to tell me here. If u r proud of ur religion, why you ashamed to reveal here ?

Debmey

no sir, your so called proofs are based on assumptions that you cannot back up.
There is no evidence to back up the claim that aisha was born 6 years before hijrah. All you have posted is claims, not proofs. I bet you you have never even checked out the primary sources Fuzzy referenced yourself.

Png_Prince

Debmey sir, if what i post u say claims, then easily i can also say what u post also claims without any proofs. Dont act like dumb dear debmey. Proof already shown not one but 8 contradict hadiths regarding aisya's age.

Debmey

I took it plainly from the hadiths, I showed you the hadiths which plainly mentioned teh age of aisha when Mohd had sex with her, you didn't.

Png_Prince

Then what did u see from my post ?

Debmey

I saw plain deception.
There was no specific mention of aisha's age, only speculation based on what some expert said when we don't know who these experts are and on what basis they made those comments. Those commenst are not even verifiable.

In other words, you have an extremely weak case that you did not even bother to read or examine.

The point is, if you are so ashamed of what mohd did, why follow his teachings? Why not carefully examine islam objectively like so many honest and logical people have done.

Png_Prince

Thanks for pushing this thread up Debmey. You dont have strong case against aisya's age here. U cant proof beyond doubt here. We muslims believe quran is the ultimate word of god, if u can show me proof from quran, then it means its beyond doubt. What i have countered here is contradicting hadiths regarding aisya'a age. U just seems to put blind eye coz u r afraid here.

Why should i be ashamed of my religion. Im proud to say Islam is my way of my life. Can u say the same thing ? Surely cannot coz u even ashamed to reveal ur sect in christianity coz u live in insecurity and full of doubt and believe in man's writing full of contradiction.

Debmey

Thanks for pushing this thread up Debmey.

No no no, it is I who shld be thanking you for constantly pushing up this thread and showing your deception and denial.

You dont have strong case against aisya's age here. U cant proof beyond doubt here.

I already did, Aisha's age when she had sex with Mohd was specifically menbtioned in many hadoths, it is you who failed to dispute it.

We muslims believe quran is the ultimate word of god, if u can show me proof from quran, then it means its beyond doubt. What i have countered here is contradicting hadiths regarding aisya'a age. U just seems to put blind eye coz u r afraid here.

Sunni muslims afre obliged to accept the hadiths, especially Al Bukhari as authentic. By denying its authenticity, you are actually contradicting your own faith.
The Quran itself never dispute aisha's age, if it does, that too will become a probl;em for sunni muslims because Al Bukahri is considered sahih under sunni islam.
The hadiths you brought up never contradicted Mohd's paedophilia at all, specifically aisha's age. If it did, muslims would have rejected Al Bukhari long ago.

Why should i be ashamed of my religion. Im proud to say Islam is my way of my life.

You are clearly ashame of islam because you tried to deny Mohd's obvious paedophilia by bending over backwards to deny authenticity of hadiths and using openly dubious means in the process. If you are not ashamed, you won't need to do that at all.

Can u say the same thing ? Surely cannot coz u even ashamed to reveal ur sect in christianity coz u live in insecurity and full of doubt and believe in man's writing full of contradiction.

You mean proud of islam? No way. I won't be a muslim even if you put a gun to me head.
I will never be proud and neither are you proud of islam, thats why you are doing what you did, exactly because you are ashamed of islamic teachings.

Png_Prince

No no no, it is I who shld be thanking you for constantly pushing up this thread and showing your deception and denial.

Haha, this thread shows u cant proof beyond doubt aisya's age. U cant rebutt the other hadiths which have contradicts aisya's age.

I already did, Aisha's age when she had sex with Mohd was specifically menbtioned in many hadoths, it is you who failed to dispute it.

U just post bukhari's hadith which suits ur agenda. But deny other bukhari hadiths which contradicts itself regarding aisya's age. You r a hypocrite.

Sunni muslims afre obliged to accept the hadiths, especially Al Bukhari as authentic. By denying its authenticity, you are actually contradicting your own faith.
The Quran itself never dispute aisha's age, if it does, that too will become a probl;em for sunni muslims because Al Bukahri is considered sahih under sunni islam.
The hadiths you brought up never contradicted Mohd's paedophilia at all, specifically aisha's age. If it did, muslims would have rejected Al Bukhari long ago.

We believe in hadiths, but when u have contradicting hadiths, then u refer to Quran. So when we have contradicting hadiths regarding aisya's age, then its not mentioned directly in Quran, then it means u cant proof beyond doubt here. Period!
U seems didnt read at all the other hadiths which i gave references. Maybe u r so afraid here.

You are clearly ashame of islam because you tried to deny Mohd's obvious paedophilia by bending over backwards to deny authenticity of hadiths and using openly dubious means in the process. If you are not ashamed, you won't need to do that at all.

Haha, why should i be ashamed ? Seems like u dont know the customs of people of jews and arabs at that time. Go read first then come here. U cant prove beyond doubt, the burden is with u to prove beyond doubt.

You mean proud of islam? No way. I won't be a muslim even if you put a gun to me head.
I will never be proud and neither are you proud of islam, thats why you are doing what you did, exactly because you are ashamed of islamic teachings.

See, u clearly avoid my question coz u r so ashamed of ur sect here. I challenge you openly reveal ur sect if u preach the truth. Why afraid ?

Debmey

Haha, this thread shows u cant proof beyond doubt aisya's age. U cant rebutt the other hadiths which have contradicts aisya's age.

I already did. I systematically refuted those hadiths Fuzzy brought up and it seems both you and fuzzy had no answer to them.
You on the other hand did nothing to counter the so many hadiths that clearly stated Aisha's gae of 9 when Mohd had sex with her.

U just post bukhari's hadith which suits ur agenda. But deny other bukhari hadiths which contradicts itself regarding aisya's age. You r a hypocrite.

The hadiths do clearly show Aisha was 9 years old when mo had ssex with her.

We believe in hadiths, but when u have contradicting hadiths, then u refer to Quran. So when we have contradicting hadiths regarding aisya's age, then its not mentioned directly in Quran, then it means u cant proof beyond doubt here. Period!
U seems didnt read at all the other hadiths which i gave references. Maybe u r so afraid here.

You have yet to show the contradioction, all you have done is make claims about contradictions without any proofs.
Had there been any contradiction, the haidths would have been rejected by muslism long ago.

Haha, why should i be ashamed ? Seems like u dont know the customs of people of jews and arabs at that time. Go read first then come here. U cant prove beyond doubt, the burden is with u to prove beyond doubt.

Regardless of culture, having sex with a 9 year old is still paedophilia.

See, u clearly avoid my question coz u r so ashamed of ur sect here. I challenge you openly reveal ur sect if u preach the truth. Why afraid ?

I'm a Chritsian, don't belong to any sect. There is no way you can detract from thsi Mohd paedophila fact.

Png_Prince

Well debmey, u r in clear denial here. I have shown u other bukhari hadiths which clearly contradicts aisya's age. Whats ur game now ? Christianity have many sects such as catholic, protestant and thousand and one sects. So which sect u belong to ? Trinity ? Twoness ? Oneness ? Which one ? Dont be ashamed to reveal. Im waiting.

Debmey

And i have systematically refuted all those hadiths of yours and you have no reply to them.

I'll show you real hadiths that affirms mo's paedophilia.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Png_Prince

Originally posted by Debmey at 30-5-2007 02:01 PM
And i have systematically refuted all those hadiths of yours and you have no reply to them.

I'll show you real hadiths that affirms mo's paedophilia.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A ...

Since u love bukhari hadith, let me show u bukhari's hadith here.

According to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)