Instant Death to Apostates in the Bible's Old and New Testaments

Mgsrulz

this is waaaayyy too of topic.

back to the topic at hand,please..

Bible explicitly tells it's followers to kill apostates,yet christians dont do it.(well,not that we know off,anyway.. :lol )

One person says they dont do it, because they are not barbaric.

so it means the bible is barbaric?
if so,it would mean the religion itself is barbaric(since it originates from the bible)

what other excuse have others got?

or can anyone give an explanation to the verse?:pmuka:

Mgslurz said
1)Prophet Muhammad was ILLITERATE.
so you cant say he copied someone else's work,because he cant even read,let alone write..
2)you want divine origin?
go study the Quran.it has scientific knowledge way ahead of it's time.. want proof?Click ME

and
3)no one is forced to convert to Islam.
your delusional



the so called scientific knowledge in the quran is all BS, muslims have a very clever way of linking things discovered much later and then say it came from quran, when the quran is so \vague about it, just like nostradamus's prophecies. how to know that muhhamad was really illiterate? his family could have made it up, same i would say about jesus's miracles, how to know that those miracles really happened? it just stories that happened so long ago, and you just beleive it, just like that.
so based on these fairy tales, one shouldnt carry out murder in the name of religion.
i know u dont force people to become muslims, i am not talking about that, i am saying you force muslims who do not want to become muslims anymore or follow muslims law. thats my meaning. "others" doesnt neccesarily mean non muslim, i mean other individuals.

i212

Alfloss.......

Do you believe in GOD?

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 08:24 AM
the so called scientific knowledge in the quran is all BS, muslims have a very clever way of linking things discovered much later and then say it came from quran, when the quran is so \vague about it,

wait a minute.
you've just contradicted yourself

first you say it is all BS.
then you say it is vague.(which means there IS scientific knowledge in it.)

so which do you mean? ;)

anyway,you want scientific knowledge,heres one for you:

the Qur'an included information about time's being relative! Some verses about the subject read:

"They ask you to hasten the punishment. God will not break His promise. A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count."
(The Qur'an, 22:47)

"He directs the whole affair from heaven to earth. Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure."
(The Qur'an, 32:5)

"The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years."
(The Qur'an, 70:4)

In some verses, it is indicated that people perceive time differently and that sometimes people can perceive a very short period of time as a very lengthy one. The following conversation of people held during their judgement in the Hereafter is a good example of this:

"He will say, 'How many years did you tarry on the earth?' They will say, 'We tarried there for a day or part of a day. Ask those able to count!' He will say, 'You only tarried there for a little while if you did but know!"
(The Qur'an, 23:112-114)

The fact that the relativity of time is so clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, which started to be revealed in 610, is another evidence that it is a holy book.

einstein proved it,but the Quran already acknowledged it 1400 years ago... :lol

anyway,you already contradicted yourself,explain which one you mean..this isnt the bible,we cant accept both A and B

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 08:24 AM
how to know that muhhamad was really illiterate? his family could have made it up,  

go read historical books-it's a world known fact in both the Muslim and non Muslim world.
i believe there was a book written by a non muslim about The Prophet's life...not sure what the name of the book was,though..

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 08:24 AMsame i would say about jesus's miracles, how to know that those miracles really happened? it just stories that happened so long ago, and you just beleive it, just like that.

cant speak of the bible,as it tarnishes the good image of Prophets,but The Quran has spoken of other things as well,and it has been proven CORRECT.
time and tima again,scientists AGREE with the Quran :lol
what more could you want?;)

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 08:24 AM
so based on these fairy tales, one shouldnt carry out murder in the name of religion.

murder?
yes,one should not kill another human.
in Islam(you dont know this,im sure) killing 1 person is the same as killing all humans.
life is treasured that much in Islam.
if you kill for no reason,Hell is your destination

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 08:24 AM
i know u dont force people to become muslims, i am not talking about that, i am saying you force muslims who do not want to become muslims anymore or follow muslims law. thats my meaning. "others" doesnt neccesarily mean non muslim, i mean other individuals.

some people force,some dont.
if i had it my way,i wouldnt want someone like lina joy(example) to be a muslim,anyway,since she doesnt believe in God.
and correct me if im wrong,but she's already a christian..-just wants her ic changed so she can marry her boyfriend

since you so kindly asked me to CLICK here and give a very islam approved website about how scientific the quran is , so now you  click here
there are always alternative opinions. muslims attitudes are very much same as many other people who like to beleive mumbo jumbo, like those people who beleived nostradamus predicted the end of the world and Sept 11. nostradamus predictions were so vague, that only when something happens then only people are able to "connect" the dots and say this verse was meant for this event. same with muslims, the point is you only see and realize something that you want to realize so much, that it becomes the "absolute truth". the human mind can be really dangerous in such times, when zealots totally beleive in what they are doing is endorsed and required by GOD.

i212

About cutting Hand.
--------------------
The web. (http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm)
--------
The Qur抋n teaches hand amputation for petty theft (Qur抋n 5:38)

The verse
----------
CUT OFF (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All­Powerful, All­Wise.   5:38

Beyond the verse
---------------
But WHOSOEVER REPENTS after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then verily, Allah will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allah is Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.  5:39

For AFLOSS:
Do you understand what that verse mean?

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 29-9-2006 01:31 PM
since you so kindly asked me to CLICK here and give a very islam approved website about how scientific the quran is , so now you  click here
there are always alternative opinions. muslims attitudes are very much same as many other people who like to beleive mumbo jumbo, like those people who beleived nostradamus predicted the end of the world and Sept 11. nostradamus predictions were so vague, that only when something happens then only people are able to "connect" the dots and say this verse was meant for this event. same with muslims, the point is you only see and realize something that you want to realize so much, that it becomes the "absolute truth". the human mind can be really dangerous in such times, when zealots totally beleive in what they are doing is endorsed and required by GOD.  

2nd paragraph:
The Qur抋n teaches hand amputation for petty theft (Qur抋n 5:38), that a man can own and have sex with slave girls (2:221; 4:3, 24-28; 23:5-6; 33:50-52; 70:30), allows child marriages (65:4-5, see N.J. Dawood's footnote in his translation), and calls for war to be made on Jews and Christians until they are either defeated or subjected to humiliating lowliness (9:29)

it's already wrong...
you see how stupid these bible sites are? :lol
nevermind,you'd probably agree with the above site.lets try and find these verses,shall we?

5:38 NOW AS FOR the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God: [48] for God is almighty, wise.

The extreme severity of this Qur'anic punishment can be understood only if one bears in mind the fundamental principle of Islamic Law that no duty (taklif) is ever imposed on man without his being granted a corresponding right (haqq); and the term "duty" also comprises, in this context, liability to punishment. Now, among the inalienable rights of every member of the Islamic society - Muslim and non-Muslim alike - is the right to protection (in every sense of the word) by the community as a whole. As is evident from innumerable Qur'anic ordinances as well as the Prophet's injunctions forthcoming from authentic Traditions, every citizen is entitled to a share in the community's economic resources and, thus, to the enjoyment of social security: in other words, he or she must be assured of an equitable standard of living commensurate with the resources at the disposal of the community. For, although the Qur'an makes it clear that human life cannot be expressed in terms of physical existence alone-the ultimate values of life being spiritual in nature-the believers are not entitled to look upon spiritual truths and values as something that could be divorced from the physical and social factors of human existence. In short, Islam envisages and demands a society that provides not only for the spiritual needs of man, but for his bodily and intellectual needs as well. It follows, therefore, that-in order to be truly Islamic - a society (or state) must be so constituted that every individual, man and woman, may enjoy that minimum of material well-being and security without which there can be no human dignity, no real freedom and, in the last resort, no spiritual progress: for, there can be no real happiness and strength in a society that permits some of its members to suffer undeserved want while others have more than they need. If the whole society suffers privations owing to circumstances beyond its control (as happened, for instance, to the Muslim community in the early days of Islam), such shared privations may become a source of spiritual strength and, through it, of future greatness. But if the available resources of a community are so unevenly distributed that certain groups within it live in affluence while the majority of the people are forced to use up all their energies in search of their daily bread, poverty becomes the 'most dangerous enemy of spiritual progress, and occasionally drives whole communities away from God-consciousness and into the arms of soul-destroying materialism. It was undoubtedly this that the Prophet had in mind when he uttered the warning words (quoted by As-Suyuti in Al-Jami' as-Saghir), "overty may well turn into a denial of the truth (kufr)." Consequently, the social legislation of Islam aims at a state of affairs in which every man, woman and child has (a) enough to eat and wear, (b) an adequate home, (c) equal opportunities and facilities for education, and (d) free medical care in health and in sickness. A corollary of these rights is the right to productive and remunerative work while of working age and in good health, and a provision (by the community or the state) of adequate nourishment, shelter, etc. in cases of disability resulting from illness, widowhood, enforced unemployment, old age, or under-age. As already mentioned, the communal obligation to create such a comprehensive social security scheme has been laid down in many Qur'anic verses, and has been amplified and explained by a great number of the Prophet's commandments. It was the second Caliph, `Umar ibn al-Khattab, who began to translate these ordinances into a concrete administrative scheme (see Ibn Sa抎 , Tabaqat I1I/1, 213-217); but after his premature death, his successors had neither the vision nor the statesmanship to continue his unfinished work. It is against the background of this social security scheme envisaged by Islam that the Qur'an imposes the severe sentence of hand-cutting as a deterrent punishment for robbery. Since, under the circumstances outlined above, "temptation" cannot be admitted as a justifiable excuse, and since, in the last resort, the entire socio-economic system of Islam is based on the faith of its adherents, its balance is extremely delicate and in need of constant, strictly-enforced protection. In a community in which everyone is assured of full security and social justice, any attempt on the part of an individual to achieve an easy, unjustified gain at the expense of other members of the community must be considered an attack against the system as a whole, and must be punished as such: and, therefore, the above ordinance which lays down that the hand of the thief shall be cut off. One must, however, always bear in mind the principle mentioned at the beginning of this note: namely, the absolute interdependence between man's rights and corresponding duties (including liability to punishment). In a community or state which neglects or is unable to provide complete social security for all its members, the temptation to enrich oneself by illegal means often becomes irresistible - and, consequently, theft cannot and should not be punished as severely as it should be punished in a state in which social security is a reality in the full sense of the word. If the society is unable to fulfil its duties with regard to every one of its members, it has no right to invoke the full sanction of criminal law (hadd) against the individual transgressor, but must confine itself to milder forms of administrative punishment. (It was in correct appreciation of this principle that the great Caliph `Umar waived the hadd of hand-cutting in a period of famine which afflicted Arabia during his reign.) To sum up, one may safely conclude that the cutting-off of a hand in punishment for theft is applicable only within the context of an already-existing, fully functioning social security scheme, and in no other circumstances.

read the above

NEXT:

AND DO NOT marry women who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for any believing bondwoman [of God] [208] is certainly better than a woman who ascribes divinity to aught beside God, even though she please you greatly. And do not give your women in marriage to men who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for- any believing bondman [of God] is certainly better than a man who ascribes divinity to aught beside God, even though he please you greatly. [Such as] these invite unto the fire, whereas God invites unto paradise, and unto [the achievement of] forgiveness by His leave; and He makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might bear them in mind.

do you see any "slave girl sex" here? ;)

NEXT:

4:3 And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you [3] - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. [4] This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.

again,any mention of slave girls?hmm... :hmm:

NEXT:

23:5 and who are mindful of their chastity, 23:6 [not giving way to their desires] with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock]: [3] for then, behold, they are free of all blame,

yet again,we see no mention of slave girls.

Mgsrulz

NEXT:

33:50 O PROPHET! Behold, We have made lawful to thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowers, [57] as well as those whom thy right hand has come to possess from among the captives of war whom God has bestowed upon thee. [58] And [We have made lawful to thee] the daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who have migrated with thee [to Yathrib]; [59] and any believing woman who offers herself freely to the Prophet and whom the Prophet might be willing to wed: [60] [this latter being but] a privilege for thee, and not for other believers - [seeing that] We have already made known what We have enjoined upon them with regard to their wives and those whom their right hands may possess. [61] [And] in order that thou be not burdened with [undue] anxiety - for God is indeed much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace 朳/quote]
notes:
[quote] As pointed out in several places (see, in particular, note 32 on 4:25), Islam does not countenance any form of concubinage, and categorically prohibits sexual relations between a man and a woman unless they are lawfully married to one another. In this respect, the only difference between a "free" woman and a slave is that whereas the former must receive a dower from her husband, no such obligation is imposed on a man who marries his rightfully owned slave (lit., "one whom his right hand possesses") - that is, a woman taken captive in a "holy war" (jihad) waged in defense of the Faith or of liberty (note 167 on 2:190 and note 72 on 8:67) -: for, in such a case, the freedom conferred upon the bride by the very act of marriage is considered to be equivalent to a dower.(Quran Ref: 33:50 )

33:52 is a little irrelevant,will just paste for the fun of it:

33:52 No [other] women shall henceforth be lawful to thee [65] nor art thou [allowed] to supplant [any of] them by other wives, [66] even though their beauty should please thee greatly -: [none shall be lawful to thee] beyond those whom thou [already] hast come to possess. [67] And God keeps watch over everything.

NEXT:

70:30 [not giving way to their desires] with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock] - : [13] for then, behold, they are free of all blame,

honestly,the person who came up with these lies about slave girls is a complete moron..
this obviously talks about SPOUSES,not slave girls... :lol

NEXT:

65:4 Now as for such of your women as are beyond, the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses, [10] their waiting-period - if you have any doubt [about it] - shall be three [calendar] months; and as for those who are with child, the end of their waiting-term shall come when they deliver their burden. And for everyone who is conscious of God, He makes it easy to obey His commandment

this is funny..
do you know what this verse is all about?
DIVORCE! :lol

i'll show you 65:1

65:1 O PROPHET! When you [1] [intend to divorce women, divorce them with a view to the waiting period appointed for them, [2] and reckon the period [carefully], and be conscious of God, your Sustainer. Do not expel them from their homes; [3] and neither shall they [be made to] leave [4] unless they become openly guilty of immoral conduct. [5] These, then, are the bounds set by God - and he who transgresses the bounds set by God does indeed sin against himself: [for, O man, although] thou knowest it not, after that [first breach] God may well cause something new to come about.

clearly,it talks of divorce.
even the surah is called The DIVORCE


hihihi...this is funny...a mere student like myself can debunk the crap that site spews out...

Mgsrulz

alfloss,i read further down that lies filled site,and guess what i found...


MORE LIES! !!!!

wanna see it?

here it is:
from the bible site:

The Qur抋n 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur抋n.

now lets look at the surah:

86:6 he has been created out of a seminal fluid

i hope you know what fluid this is...
if you don't,then...erm...go back to school.

86:7 issuing from between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman].

look at how stupid your given site is..
the verse clearly speaks of WOMEN's pelvic arch,and that moron says men's :lol

that site is
A)stupid
B)full of lies
C)has no idea what he is talking about(basically A again..) :lol

[ Last edited by  Mgsrulz at 29-9-2006 02:44 PM ]

i212

Qur抋n 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.
----------------------------------

Hey... when you want to tell story to people about horse talking,
Did you tell the story in horse way of communicating?

This is not science... its History about Prophet Solomon. duh..

i212

The Qur抋n 5:6, says that if there is no water to clean oneself with, you should use sand as a substitute for water. Firstly this is very unhygienic, since sand is full of dust and is unclean. Even if the God of the Qur抋n had not been addressing scientific issues, one would wonder why he would not know that sand is unhygienic and dangerous for one's health, thus warning them against it.
-----------------

Its about Ablution lah.... duh....
It called tayammum.

Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-Mâ'idah. Verse 6.

O you who believe! WHEN YOU INTEND TO OFFER AS-SALAT (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.  


--------
Is that webmaster know about his foolishness or not? wonder why it famous among Muslim Hatters

snipersnake

Sesungguhnya orang-orang kafir, sama saja bagi mereka, kamu beri peringatan atau tidak kamu beri peringatan, mereka tidak akan beriman.
2 :6


Maka jika kamu tidak dapat membuat (nya) dan pasti kamu tidak akan dapat membuat (nya), peliharalah dirimu dari neraka yang bahan bakarnya manusia dan batu, yang disediakan bagi orang-orang kafir
2 :24


Sesungguhnya Allah tiada segan membuat perumpamaan berupa nyamuk atau yang lebih rendah dari itu. Adapun orang-orang yang beriman, maka mereka yakin bahwa perumpamaan itu benar dari Tuhan mereka, tetapi mereka yang kafir mengatakan: "Apakah maksud Allah menjadikan ini untuk perumpamaan?" Dengan perumpamaan itu banyak orang yang disesatkan Allah, dan dengan perumpamaan itu (pula) banyak orang yang diberi-Nya petunjuk. Dan tidak ada yang disesatkan Allah kecuali orang-orang yang fasik,
2 :26


Adapun orang-orang yang kafir dan mendustakan ayat-ayat Kami, mereka itu penghuni neraka; mereka kekal di dalamnya.
2 :39


Dan berimanlah kamu kepada apa yang telah Aku turunkan (Al Qur'an) yang membenarkan apa yang ada padamu (Taurat), dan janganlah kamu menjadi orang yang pertama kafir kepadanya,dan janganlah kamu menukarkan ayat-ayat-Ku dengan harga yang rendah, dan hanya kepada Akulah kamu harus bertakwa
2 :41


Mereka (orang-orang kafir) berkata: "Allah mempunyai anak". Maha Suci Allah, bahkan apa yang ada di langit dan di bumi adalah kepunyaan Allah; semua tunduk kepada-Nya. 2 :116


Dan perumpamaan (orang yang menyeru) orang-orang kafir adalah seperti penggembala yang memanggil binatang yang tidak mendengar selain panggilan dan seruan saja. Mereka tuli, bisu dan buta, maka (oleh sebab itu) mereka tidak mengerti.
2 :171

[ Last edited by  snipersnake at 29-9-2006 03:47 PM ]

LostSoul

err turth.8 is one of ppl who believe they are the next nostradamus... hahahaha

Mgsrulz

this thread needs to be seen...

do you agree or disagree with this?

chrsitians,where are you?

here is the rebuttal of your scientific quran click here.

to your question of what god i beleive in, at the moment i do not know if god exists or not, i am searching for god, but i dont find it in the quran, bible,baghvad gita or whatever else.

Funny thing is you keep saying the quran is full of scientific revelations, but muslims fail to discover them. is it because muslims are not following the true followings of islam?  what is the reason then?

so if the quran is scientific as you say, what then ? it gives you the right to implement full islamic law because its "true"? what if people like me resist? what will you do to enforce God's rights as you said? what lengths are u willing to go to? do you not admit that the quran places higher value on muslims right  against the non muslim? i suggest you start a new thread about science and the quran, as this is becoming out of the topic already.

LostSoul

mmm alfloss, all the best in your search to find true God.

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 2-10-2006 01:31 PM
here is the rebuttal of your scientific quran click here.

another anti islam website?
you want me to debunk even more lies from that site as well? :lol

once not enough,eh?

anyway,you didnt answer a single thing with regards to what i asked you above...:pmuka: conveniently skipped them,eh?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 2-10-2006 01:31 PM
to your question of what god i beleive in, at the moment i do not know if god exists or not, i am searching for god, but i dont find it in the quran, bible,baghvad gita or whatever else.

Funny thing is you keep saying the quran is full of scientific revelations, but muslims fail to discover them. is it because muslims are not following the true followings of islam?  what is the reason then?

*im not sure if people here cant read,or are forgetful,or are too full of themselves,but..*
we have said it MANY MANY MANY times before.
the Quran is perfect,the religion,Islam,is perfect.
Humans,however,are NOT.

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 2-10-2006 01:31 PM
so if the quran is scientific as you say, what then ? it gives you the right to implement full islamic law because its "true"? what if people like me resist? what will you do to enforce God's rights as you said? what lengths are u willing to go to? do you not admit that the quran places higher value on muslims right  against the non muslim? i suggest you start a new thread about science and the quran, as this is becoming out of the topic already.

you have little to no idea what you're talking about.
since when have Muslims enforced ISLAMIC laws on NON MUSLIMS?
please study abit of history.

The Prophet Himself never applied the hudud law on the non muslims...

case 1
rape case of canny ong. ahmad najip aris was being tried in court for her rape and murder, in the civil courts. while the trial is in progress, a PAS politician quotes from the quran and says ahmad najip did nothing wrong, because it is allright in islam to have sex with non muslim woman even if she objected.

case 2.
a hindu man in malaysia no longer finds his hindu wife attractive, he found a younger malay woman a lot more prettier. what did he do? he convert to islam, married the malay woman without divorcing his wife. Why did the islamic authorities allow this? because a muslim's right is always higher than a non muslims in the eyes of the shariah. This man did not inform his wife, he just moved out and lived with his new wife. The old wife goes to court to get her rights, but was told that it was the jurisdiction of the shariah courts, The NGO SISTERS IN ISLAM tried to help the wife, but to no avail. Just? Fair?
3.When a non muslim converts to islam, after this revert dies, even if this revert wrote a will proclaiming that all his/her properties is to be given to the non muslim relatives, the will will be null and void, because the shariah court will have the final say, always giving the said properties to the muslim relatives.

4. why is it that rape cases involving both a muslim perpetrator and victim, isnt tried under the shariah court? is it because muslims themselves know that islamic laws concerning rape will be unjust towards the victim? What if the victim is unable to produce 4 male witnesses? the rapist goes free then? What about fingerprints, DNA , are those admissable in the shariah court? NO they are not, islamic law is "perfect" therefore it cannot be changed, any attempt to change any law is heresy, and is punishable. whatever was done in the prohet's time, must be done the same way today, no new additions, because it will taint its purity...


Mgsrulz said
another anti islam website?
you want me to debunk even more lies from that site as well?

once not enough,eh?

anyway,you didnt answer a single thing with regards to what i asked you above... conveniently skipped them,eh?


yes please try to debunk this site if you can, as of skipping thru what you said, i will answer those soon, i have to work for a living, i dont have loads of free time to argue with you about this.i will get back to you.

[ Last edited by  ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:23 AM ]

Mgsrulz

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
case 1
rape case of canny ong. ahmad najip aris was being tried in court for her rape and murder, in the civil courts. while the trial is in progress, a PAS politician quotes from the quran and says ahmad najip did nothing wrong, because it is allright in islam to have sex with non muslim woman even if she objected.

notice some keywords here:
PAS,politician.
btw,do you have what this guy quoted from the Quran? ;)

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
case 2.
a hindu man in malaysia no longer finds his hindu wife attractive, he found a younger malay woman a lot more prettier. what did he do? he convert to islam, married the malay woman without divorcing his wife. Why did the islamic authorities allow this? because a muslim's right is always higher than a non muslims in the eyes of the shariah. This man did not inform his wife, he just moved out and lived with his new wife. The old wife goes to court to get her rights, but was told that it was the jurisdiction of the shariah courts, The NGO SISTERS IN ISLAM tried to help the wife, but to no avail. Just? Fair?

it isnt fair,but whats this got to do with the religion?
do you see anywhere in the Quran saying we should just leave our spouses and convert to islam just because they're ugly? ;)

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
3.When a non muslim converts to islam, after this revert dies, even if this revert wrote a will proclaiming that all his/her properties is to be given to the non muslim relatives, the will will be null and void, because the shariah court will have the final say, always giving the said properties to the muslim relatives.

so?
what problems do you have here?
the revert should know the Islamic law..if he/she wrote that will AFTER converting,it shows he/she doesnt know hack of his/her new religion... ;)

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
4. why is it that rape cases involving both a muslim perpetrator and victim, isnt tried under the shariah court? is it because muslims themselves know that islamic laws concerning rape will be unjust towards the victim? What if the victim is unable to produce 4 male witnesses? the rapist goes free then? What about fingerprints, DNA , are those admissable in the shariah court? NO they are not, islamic law is "perfect" therefore it cannot be changed, any attempt to change any law is heresy, and is punishable. whatever was done in the prohet's time, must be done the same way today, no new additions, because it will taint its purity...

unjust towarsd the victim?
show me the injustice.

btw,any links to article of those cases?

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
yes please try to debunk this site if you can,  

stupid and useless question:after i've shown you evidence to refute the site,what then?
you would convert? :lol

Originally posted by ALFLOSS at 3-10-2006 08:21 AM
as of skipping thru what you said, i will answer those soon, i have to work for a living, i dont have loads of free time to argue with you about this.i will get back to you.

it doesnt take that long to post a reply.
i myself have other things to do,but i can take 2 minutes out of my time to post

mgsrulz said
it isnt fair,but whats this got to do with the religion?
do you see anywhere in the Quran saying we should just leave our spouses and convert to islam just because they're ugly?

again you and all other muslims fail to see the point. you are justifying just because islam didnt say you should leave your spouse because they are ugly, so it makes what the shariah court ruled as ok?the point is not that the quran says you can leave your spouse because they ar ugly and cpnvert, you  are twisting my statements. the point is that islamic law is discriminatory towards non muslims ! the hindu wife has no rights at all ! does that seem right to you? he did not even have to divorce her, because since he is now a muslim, he can take more than 1 wife.
it has ALL to do with the religion, because ISLAM is the only religion that enforces religious laws, which is not proven and based only on beleif of ISLAM. becuase of islamic law, the hindu wife is ignored ! how can you not get the point?


Mgsrulz said-
so?
what problems do you have here?
the revert should know the Islamic law..if he/she wrote that will AFTER converting,it shows he/she doesnt know hack of his/her new religion...

again, you dont see the PROBLEM, how can a set of laws be JUST when it treats beleivers and non beleivers differently? Secular law does not discriminate based on your religion. why must people be treated differently? how can that be JUST and fair?everyone regardless of race, religion, whatever should be treated equally. in order to be fair to all peoples, then Islamic law shoudnt be implemented.

mgsrulz said
unjust towarsd the victim?
show me the injustice.

btw,any links to article of those cases?


if a victim is unable to produce 4 male witnesses, then the alledged rapist will go free. No modern evidence like DNA will be admissable in shariah court. so just because she cant get 4 witnesses, is it ok to let the rapist go free, eventhoug there will be other evidence like dna in sperm? can you honestly tell me this is JUST? no i do not have any links yet, but you do know islamic law right about rape right?

Mgsrulz said
stupid and useless question:after i've shown you evidence to refute the site,what then?
you would convert?


again you are attacking me personally, in many of my replies, i have restrained myself from attacking you or any other muslims, instead of attacking the person, i attack the opinion. so  i expect you to do the same, we are supposed to be having a peaceful and intelligent debate with each other. for now, i do not wish to convert (revert) to islam, i do not like to be controllled legally by another court system. if you wish to debunk the site, please do, if not its allright. i dont doubt your religious zeal. i am sure when you have the time you would go through it. i didnt know converting me to islam is so important to you.


Mgsrulz said
it doesnt take that long to post a reply.
i myself have other things to do,but i can take 2 minutes out of my time to post

well good for you, but i dont have access to a computer all the time. just because i answer slowly doesnt mean i wont answer. be patient.


mgsrulz said

notice some keywords here:
PAS,politician.
btw,do you have what this guy quoted from the Quran?

the news about it was quickly hushed by the mainstram media because it was offensive, so i do not have th verse he quoted, but sinc you wanted it, i will try my best to find it for you.



about theory of realtivity, you said that the quran states what einstein was saying.

QUOTE:
the Qur'an included information about time's being relative! Some verses about the subject read:

"They ask you to hasten the punishment. God will not break His promise. A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count."
(The Qur'an, 22:47)

"He directs the whole affair from heaven to earth. Then it will again ascend to Him on a Day whose length is a thousand years by the way you measure."
(The Qur'an, 32:5)

"The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose length is fifty thousand years."
(The Qur'an, 70:4)

In some verses, it is indicated that people perceive time differently and that sometimes people can perceive a very short period of time as a very lengthy one. The following conversation of people held during their judgement in the Hereafter is a good example of this:

"He will say, 'How many years did you tarry on the earth?' They will say, 'We tarried there for a day or part of a day. Ask those able to count!' He will say, 'You only tarried there for a little while if you did but know!"
(The Qur'an, 23:112-114)

The fact that the relativity of time is so clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, which started to be revealed in 610, is another evidence that it is a holy book.
einstein proved it,but the Quran already acknowledged it 1400 years ago...

anyway,you already contradicted yourself,explain which one you mean..this isnt the bible,we cant accept both A and B



that so called theory of realtivity you mentioned in the quran isnt reffering to the same theory of relativity. that quranic verses means that suffering will be so great on those who disobey allah, that time will feel much longer than it actually is. this isnt the theory of realitivity. do you know what is the theory of relativity? einsten said that when a mass has a velocity close to the speed of light, time relative to another object that is moving much slower or stationary, will be slower relative to the object moving at near the speed of light. so the object moving at near speed of light, when it comes back to the stationary or slow moving object, the stationary object woould have aged more.

let us examine the quranic injuction.

"They ask you to hasten the punishment. God will not break His promise. A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count."

this is by no means refers to einsten's theory. you only want to beleive this refers to Einsten's theory. how shall i prove it?
let me tell you a story.
i never knew about the theory of relativity until i was 11, when i read a book about it. before that i have heard of it, but it just a word to me,i didnt understand it. all right, at school, i was punished by my teacher for making noise, i had to stand in front of the class for 1/2 and hour, but it felt like i was standing there for 2 hours. mind you i was 8 years old. even then, i have felt that time was longer than it really was, hence "relative time". even before the quran,people have already experienced this relative time, it is simple, if you are forced to do something you dont like, you feel like you have been doing it for much longer , eventhough a look at your watch will tell you otherwise. So it is from this human experience, something we can all relate to as human beings, something that we all experince in our lives, that it was included in the quran. it was meant to show that the punsihment from ALLAH will be so severe that a day will seem like a 1000 years...thats the meaning it is conveying, not a scientific theory like the theory of relativity. since you dont like to be punished so severely by ALLAH, then you will feel like a day of punishment is like a 1000 years.


mgsrulz said
some people force,some dont.
if i had it my way,i wouldnt want someone like lina joy(example) to be a muslim,anyway,since she doesnt believe in God.
and correct me if im wrong,but she's already a christian..-just wants her ic changed so she can marry her boyfriend

but thats the thing, in islam you cant have it your way, everything is already spelt out for you. any changes will be deemed blasphemy, and subject to punsihment, since the quran is "perfect" and "complete".lets say that islamic law is fully implemented in the near future, lina joy will be up for execution, and even though you do not agree with killing her, you are not going to say anything am i right? you will just let it be, since the clerics know better right?

lastly, please understand i am not arguing to bash islam for no reason. but your laws are discriminatory, and your attitude as a good muslim shows that you are allright with such discriminations, because you see it as JUST and FAIR. we as non muslims see JUSTICE and FAIRNESS as being treated equally, not by ones beleifs, beleifs should not matter in the name of justice.