hadith thread

sam1528

kid posted on 28-11-2014 11:16 PM
I think the verses from Quran were very clear on that and explaining zakat, what, when, who etc. It is sufficient for me, but not you because you need extra additional laws aside Quran.

These are the signs of the clear book.” 12:1

You seems didn't read carefully. For example "al-afwoo" or "the excess" means to give which we can afford to give away without the need to ask for it back as stated. In many Quran verses if you study "al-afwoo" it doesn't mean to give all the excess, but what you can afford. So it is not fixed but flexible. While you believe it is fixed at 2.5%.

For Quran alone folks, the standard is clear, they follow Quran only. It is sufficient.

If we see the history of Islam since the earlier prophets, Muslims deviated because they follows another man-made books aside God's scriptures. Today Muslim still doing the same, they failed to learn the mistake made by their ancestors.

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114 L

You are not addressing the issue but just beating around the bush.

We agree that the concept of zakat is in the Quran and it is mandatory. However what is the objective standard for a person to give zakat?

It is illogical to give all of the profit or excess being zakat being one extreme of the spectrum. The other extreme is that it is also illogical for one to give 0.000000001% (or less) of the profit or 'excess' being zakat. In both cases , it being surplus , one can give away without the need for asking back.

The 2 examples I provided are the so called flexibility that you argue for.

The hadith however sets an objective standard for zakat it being 2.5%. There is no extra law here as the need for zakat is acknowledged. However what is the objective standard?

kid

I have stated twice, the standard is al-afwoo or the excess.
So whatever excess after set aside all your needs.

In fact if your needs more than your income then no zakat applies, because you have no excess.
This is simple law determined by Quran and Allah's command.
If you are reluctant to follow it then dont.

I remember my brother in law selling his gold saving because he have to give 2.5% zakat, while he is unemployed now and he just live by his wife earning which is just enough to cover expense.
But because hadith says 2.5% fixed rate, and not flexible so he has to sell the golds.
Hadith version of zakat is so much different, it is indeed on different standard!

sam1528

kid posted on 29-11-2014 01:24 AM
I have stated twice, the standard is al-afwoo or the excess.
So whatever excess after set aside all your needs.

In fact if your needs more than your income then no zakat applies, because you have no excess.
This is simple law determined by Quran and Allah's command.
If you are reluctant to follow it then dont.

I remember my brother in law selling his gold saving because he have to give 2.5% zakat, while he is unemployed now and he just live by his wife earning which is just enough to cover expense.
But because hadith says 2.5% fixed rate, and not flexible so he has to sell the golds.
Hadith version of zakat is so much different, it is indeed on different standard!

You continuously miss the point. My contention is what is the objective standard?

A person can do the extreme by giving everything away at one end of the spectrum and on the other extreme , give only 0.000000001% (or less). Therefore you don't have any objective standard but on gut feel which is illogical and not practical. We need practicality in our lives. Islam is a practical religion.

Did your brother in law sold the gold before or after he was unemployed? If it was before , just imagine following the Quaranist standpoint that he gave everything (the so called excess) away per my example as stated above. If he did such after he was unemployed , why did he do it as there would not be any excess in this case.

Your example is a bad one. I question his financial management. It has got nothing to do with the 2.5% zakat.

kid

sam1528 posted on 29-11-2014 09:49 AM
You continuously miss the point. My contention is what is the objective standard?

A person can  ...

You continuously miss the point. My contention is what is the objective standard?

A person can do the extreme by giving everything away at one end of the spectrum and on the other extreme , give only 0.000000001% (or less). Therefore you don't have any objective standard but on gut feel which is illogical and not practical. We need practicality in our lives. Islam is a practical religion.

Did your brother in law sold the gold before or after he was unemployed? If it was before , just imagine following the Quaranist standpoint that he gave everything (the so called excess) away per my example as stated above. If he did such after he was unemployed , why did he do it as there would not be any excess in this case.

Your example is a bad one. I question his financial management. It has got nothing to do with the 2.5% zakat.

I think you are the one missing the point, zakat in Quran is flexible, depend on your situation, if you are rich and have so much money then you can spend WAY MORE than so called 2.5%. Unless your term which the RICH shall only spend 2.5% fixed rate, imagine this will NOT BE FAIR to the poor person whom 2.5% is WAY TO MUCH for him.

So Allah knows exactly the situation, HE didn't set fixed rate, but AL-AFWOO instead. He ask to give "the excess of WHATS LEFT from what you already needs", so if you had spend on all your needs... then you still have the money left, than it is the excess.
You seems very hard to accept the real meaning of "the excess". If my brother in law is unempolyed he dont have the excess at all, instead he needs help and deserve to be given the zakat! BUT NOT to hadith follower, he has to give 2.5% zakat yearly no matter unemployed or not!.

So are you saying Allah's version is not practical?

If in case you have salary about 1Million USD, but you have loan and responsibility about 1Million USD, then no zakat applies to you because you need all the money. If you have salary RM10,000 but your everything needs only RM9000 then RM1000 is the excess, in this case 10%
If your needs only RM5000 then 50% is the excess, but if you have loans etc and planning to save on your kid future school fee, then you need about RM11,000 then you dont have the excess, instead you need help!

Unlike hadith which dont care of what your condition, so my brother in law had to sold his gold saving because he have to spend 2.5% zakat on his saving based on hadith instruction!

So which one is not practical? Of course hadith version in unpractical and unfair.

Is this so hard to understand? If you can;t accept then be it. I dont want to push anything to you. I just stated what Allah commanded. It is up to you to accept or reject.

sam1528

kid posted on 29-11-2014 01:23 PM
I think you are the one missing the point, zakat in Quran is flexible, depend on your situation, if you are rich and have so much money then you can spend WAY MORE than so called 2.5%. Unless your term which the RICH shall only spend 2.5% fixed rate, imagine this will NOT BE FAIR to the poor person whom 2.5% is WAY TO MUCH for him.

So Allah knows exactly the situation, HE didn't set fixed rate, but AL-AFWOO instead. He ask to give "the excess of WHATS LEFT from what you already needs", so if you had spend on all your needs... then you still have the money left, than it is the excess.
You seems very hard to accept the real meaning of "the excess". If my brother in law is unempolyed he dont have the excess at all, instead he needs help and deserve to be given the zakat! BUT NOT to hadith follower, he has to give 2.5% zakat yearly no matter unemployed or not!.

So are you saying Allah's version is not practical?

If in case you have salary about 1Million USD, but you have loan and responsibility about 1Million USD, then no zakat applies to you because you need all the money. If you have salary RM10,000 but your everything needs only RM9000 then RM1000 is the excess, in this case 10%
If your needs only RM5000 then 50% is the excess, but if you have loans etc and planning to save on your kid future school fee, then you need about RM11,000 then you dont have the excess, instead you need help!

Unlike hadith which dont care of what your condition, so my brother in law had to sold his gold saving because he have to spend 2.5% zakat on his saving based on hadith instruction!

So which one is not practical? Of course hadith version in unpractical and unfair.

Is this so hard to understand? If you can;t accept then be it. I dont want to push anything to you. I just stated what Allah commanded. It is up to you to accept or reject.

Oh dear. You are so confused. To you , the following is true
(1) The Quranist standpoint is that zakat is flexible
(2) The Hadith following muslims - zakat is compulsory even though the person is a pauper.

Where do you get this idea from? It appears that you have a lot to unlearn what you have learned when you became a Quranist.

The 2.5% for zakat is an objective standard based on a number of criteria , it being

• Full Possession
• Real or Assumed Growth
• Fulfilling the Nisab (Minimum Amount Liable to Zakah)
• Fulfilling One's Basic Needs
• The Lapse of a Full Year
• Forbidding Twice Payment of Zakah at the Same Year
  

This is very basic knowledge. You are expected to know of such.

You argue that zakat from the Quranist standpoint is flexible? I say it would lead to unwanted implications. Say a person has $10 million excess and since it is flexible , he just decide to pay 0.0000000001% being zakat. This amounts to $0.01 or 1 cent. Still ok per your justification being a Quranist. This is ridiculous.

However with an objective standard of 2.5% , the said person needs to pay $250k , it being zakat. It is objective because another person might have $1000 excess , meaning the person need to pay $25 in zakat. Everyone is on a level playing field here.

Which is the more practical solution? Care to explain?

I expand the condition of Fulfilling One's Basic Needs (from above):

Properties owned to meet one's basic requirements such as houses, work tools, machines for industry, means of transport, and furniture are excluded from Zakah. The same applies to the money dedicated to the repayment of debts, since the debtor is in need of this money to relieve himself from imprisonment and humiliation. This leads to a conclusion that the money kept to meet the basic requirements is exempted from Zakah.

In context it means that one pays the 2.5% of zakat on any excess of wealth.

I would say your brother in law has mismanaged his finances. Nothing to do with the 2.5% zakat.

You are not addressing the actual issue here. You cannot even justify the so called 'flexible zakat' , it being the stand of Quranists.

ussopp

u know what....

antihadeeth is one weird sector....

they conclude that islam interpretation from Quran is customize by individuals.....

no one can judge the other....even kassim ahmad, rashad khalifa, nd aidid safar have their own mazhab...in the other word their own "hadeeth" on understanding the Quran.....

to overcome this difference in understanding in this antihadeeth method, they create the conclusion that, its okay to be different....as long as you try to get it from quran....

and i some how noted that when an antihadeeth see differences in understanding in Quran, they say SALAM and turn away to ful fill that they can be different interpretation....which mean belief is depending on individuals,,,,not not shared...


so i asked, if this is what Muhammad taught, where is this generation during Muhammad times???

what are Muhammad doing.....?at that time??

are abu bakar and umar were given freedom to interprete Quran themselves? are some of them wearing shorts? free hair?

some of them naked? some of them wearing burkha???

and they solat differently?????


wallahua'lam......

kid

ussopp

You said that Quran alone follower have different understanding.
Yes they are.

So do Sunni has so many difference sects; ASWJ (Ahlussunnah waljamaah), Salafi, Wahabi, Ahmadiyah, Naqsabandiah, Sufi, Tarekat, etc. Then dont forget Syiah who use their own hadiths etc.

Differences is not something new, and will continue as it is until the end of the world. God knows that.

kid

Bro Sam,

Its up to you if you want to follow 2.5% fized rate zakat. Thats your choice.
I will follow Quranic zakat only.

Probably you still remember in surah Al-Baqarah, when Bani Israel asked by God to sacrifice a cow (a simple command). Then they didn't sacrifice the cow instead they asked so many things, what color... how, etc.

In Zakat, Quran said to give the excess (simple enough) , and you said, what..., how.... etc.

sam1528

kid posted on 30-11-2014 11:22 PM
Bro Sam,

Its up to you if you want to follow 2.5% fized rate zakat. Thats your choice.
I will follow Quranic zakat only.

Probably you still remember in surah Al-Baqarah, when Bani Israel asked by God to sacrifice a cow (a simple command). Then they didn't sacrifice the cow instead they asked so many things, what color... how, etc.

In Zakat, Quran said to give the excess (simple enough) , and you said, what..., how.... etc.

Bro ,

At this juncture it is not a matter of you go your way and I go mine. You stated unequivocally that hadith following muslims are deviants and Quranists are the true muslims. I am requesting you to justify your position.

You claim in the case of zakat , where in your own words ' ... zakat in Quran is flexible...'. This means that a person can decide on their whims and fancies of how much to pay , it can be 0.000000001% or less. Refer to my previous example. Therefore there is no social justice as demanded by the Quran. Where is the level playing field here without any objective standard?

The Bani Israil in Surah Baqarah is about them not wanting to do what was requested by Prophet Moosa(as) thus putting up one obstacle after another. The situation here is different. You are requested to justify why you claim that the zakat per Quranists understanding is flexible but having the implication of lacking in social justice thus going against the Quran. You are addressing the issue.

Please address the issue

kid

You stated unequivocally that hadith following muslims are deviants and Quranists are the true muslims.

Bro, I never want to judge you or the others as it is not within my rights and it is belong to Allah only. Only Allah knows whow is right and who is wrong.

So if you feel I ever stated that you are deviant, then I'm sorry, I retract what I said.

During the heat of discussion, my emotion might overwhelm my clear thinking, so if I ever said that you are deviant or you feel that I claim you are deviant then forgive me. While you should not be angry when I criticised you, as criticism is for a good reason. You are also free to criticise me.

I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, I don't know my fate. In Qur'an even prophet Muhammad said he doesn't know his fate, so why I claim I'm right already?

My goal here is just to convey what is in Qur'an, and it is up to you or others to accept, I have no power over you. Only Allah knows best.

Regarding zakat I already stated whats in Qur'an and my understanding, so bro if you want to follow fixed rate, I have no problem. Really.

sam1528

kid posted on 1-12-2014 05:30 PM
Bro, I never want to judge you or the others as it is not within my rights and it is belong to Allah only. Only Allah knows whow is right and who is wrong.

So if you feel I ever stated that you are deviant, then I'm sorry, I retract what I said.

During the heat of discussion, my emotion might overwhelm my clear thinking, so if I ever said that you are deviant or you feel that I claim you are deviant then forgive me. While you should not be angry when I criticised you, as criticism is for a good reason. You are also free to criticise me.

I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, I don't know my fate. In Qur'an even prophet Muhammad said he doesn't know his fate, so why I claim I'm right already?

My goal here is just to convey what is in Qur'an, and it is up to you or others to accept, I have no power over you. Only Allah knows best.

Regarding zakat I already stated whats in Qur'an and my understanding, so bro if you want to follow fixed rate, I have no problem. Really.

Aiyoo Bro Kid , why do you always misunderstand what has been written?

I stated earlier that this issue does not offend me at all. All I am looking for is a justification from you being a Quranist. So far you have not provide any justification of your conviction. Flexibility in the quantum paid in the form of zakat leads to social injustice as I argued earlier. You did not even address the issue but brush it aside by just stating you have your ways.

Far from it as the Quran has stated that any decision , moresoever that affect the community need to be on a consultative basis ; Quran42:38 (sahih international)

And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.

How is it that you can just go on your own without consultation as zakat has an effect on the community. Are you ok with the idea of just paying 0.00000001% or less for zakat as you have been arguing for 'flexible zakat'? How would the affairs of the less fortunate be taken care of? What effect would it have on others if we have a person with $10 mil in excess but just pay 0.00000001% (or less) because he claims that the Quran state of such. The whole zakat system would break down or if a Quranist leads the community , there would not be any zakat system thus negating one of the 5 pillars.

No muslim would say that they are guaranteed of salvation because we do not know whether we die a muslim. Therefore we always say 'by Allah will'. However muslims are guaranteed paradise per Quran9:72 (sahih international)

Allah has promised the believing men and believing women gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally, and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence; but approval from Allah is greater. It is that which is the great attainment.

'Garden' the the said verse :     [size=5.2]جَنَّـٰتٍ۬     - 'jannatin

We know that Allah never break a promise ; Quran3:9

sam1528

ussopp posted on 30-11-2014 11:59 AM
u know what....

antihadeeth is one weird sector....

Bro Ussopp ,

We are just having a difference in opinion.

I just would like to understand what is the objective position taken by Hadeeth Rejectors. So far no objective reasoning yet

BTW , Rashad Khalifa tried to change the Quran so that it fits into his so called number 19 miracle theory. He is a no go ...

kid

If you don't believe in Rashad Khalifa then many of the Qur'an follower agree with you.

My personal opinion, there are some truth in Rashad arguments, there are also innovation made himself, so I only follow what I think is factual and have base on Qur'an.

Quran followerstay away from idolizing a specific person, or blind faith or taqlid, unlike hadith follower who is taqlid in their own mazhab, there are 4 major mazhabs and they are different, so you follow Syafi'i because you live in country who are Syafi'i follower. If you live in Saudi then you are following other mazhab

We cannot do that, we must live by the rule and guidance (Qur'an) and definitely not MAZHAB!

mashimaru83

kid posted on 4-12-2014 01:29 PM
If you don't believe in Rashad Khalifa then many of the Qur'an follower agree with you.

My person ...

I don't think I can agree with you. Differences do not necessarily make them wrong...

kid

mashimaru83 posted on 5-12-2014 08:53 PM
I don't think I can agree with you. Differences do not necessarily make them wrong...

Yes exactly, I didn't say they are wrong, also I didn't they are right.

What I meant was, there are 4 mazhabs, so which one you have to follow? So you will follow only what your parent and grandparents followed.
To conclude which one is best, on objective terms it is hard.

Quranist also have many differences, but at least they only follow one source, Qur'an.

mashimaru83

kid posted on 9-12-2014 02:23 PM
Yes exactly, I didn't say they are wrong, also I didn't they are right.

What I meant was, there ...

kid
What I meant was, there are 4 mazhabs, so which one you have to follow? So you will follow only what your parent and grandparents followed.
To conclude which one is best, on objective terms it is hard.

I will follow only what my parent and grandparents follow? That is just an opinion from you and I cannot argue based on your opinion. I had rather deal with the actual facts.

kid
Quranist also have many differences, but at least they only follow one source, Qur'an.

Yes, it is one source, but differences between the Quranists show that they also have different views/opinions on that one source. How can Quranist know that his opinions/views is the best if he himself is also subjected to make mistakes (i.e. wrong interpretation)?

kid

mashimaru83 posted on 9-12-2014 08:26 PM
I will follow only what my parent and grandparents follow? That is just an opinion from you and I cannot argue based on your opinion. I had rather deal with the actual facts.

This is the fact:

2:170
Shakir: And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow what we found our fathers upon. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.

This is another translation:

Yusuf Ali: When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

Syafi'i is our forefather, who created Syafi'i mazhab, then this mazhab become popular in South East Asia (mostly Malaysia, Indonesia), East Africa, and some part of Middle East, because our parents follow it, we follow it. This is the fact I'm talking about.

If you born in Saudi, you most likely follow Hanbali.

Yes, it is one source, but differences between the Quranists show that they also have different views/opinions on that one source. How can Quranist know that his opinions/views is the best if he himself is also subjected to make mistakes (i.e. wrong interpretation)?

Quranist never claimed they are guided nor making right interpretation. They only do their best to interpret Quran from the Quran itself as it is, without influence of outside/external sources which claimed "they explain the Quran", but then added and modify the original commands.

It is God who will explain.
Proof: "Then it is for Us to explain it." 75:19

But so called "hadith" explain all the Quran. Today every matters in religion must be addressed to ustadz or ulama or hadith. (Why dont refer to Quran itself?)

"...but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 3:7

Only God knows who are the "men of understanding", but scholars claimed they are the only one who understand, while God says He will guide whoever He wills, so they can be a student, doctor, mechanic, a driver, a politician etc, must not be a scholar as they claimed!

Most still hold to the tradition that Quran must be explained by external sources/scholars, because the scholars who know the correct interpretation.
This raise a question;
Is the interpreter (scholars) cleverer than God? How can the interpreter be able to put the correct meaning across while God could not?

Do you not believe that God is All Powerful and All Knowing? Does God have DIFFICULTIES TO EXPLAIN?

mashimaru83

kid posted on 10-12-2014 09:44 AM
This is the fact:

2:170

kid
2:170
Shakir: And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow whatwe found our fathers upon. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.

This is another translation:

Yusuf Ali: When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

Syafi'i is our forefather, who created Syafi'i mazhab, then this mazhab become popular in South East Asia (mostly Malaysia, Indonesia), East Africa, and some part of Middle East, because our parents follow it, we follow it. This is the fact I'm talking about.

If you born in Saudi, you most likely follow Hanbali.

Your argument is misleading. Following forefather by itself doesn't make it wrong at all. Kindly read the verse properly, it put criterias for the forefathers:
- Forefathers who have no sense at all.
- Forefathers who don't follow the guidance.
So, there is nothing wrong to follow forefathers if forefathers are also following the guidance. Allow me to remind you that Hadith followers don't reject the guidance (Al-Quran), so your argument is not applicable to Imam Syafie or even the Hadith followers.

kid
It is God who will explain.
Proof: "Then it is for Us to explain it." 75:19

But so called "hadith" explain all the Quran. Today every matters in religion must be addressed to ustadz or ulama or hadith. (Why dont refer to Quran itself?)

It's a simple logic. Those ustaz or ulama have studied the whole Al-Quran, so I don't see any issue to refer to someone that is knowledgeable.

kid
"...but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 3:7

Only God knows who are the "men of understanding", but scholars claimed they are the only one who understand, while God says He will guide whoever He wills, so they can be a student, doctor, mechanic, a driver, a politician etc, must not be a scholar as they claimed!

Before we go furher, may I know which scholars made that claim? Do you have any reference to that?

kid
Most still hold to the tradition that Quran must be explained by external sources/scholars, because the scholars who know the correct interpretation.
This raise a question;
Is the interpreter (scholars) cleverer than God? How can the interpreter be able to put the correct meaning across while God could not?

Do you not believe that God is All Powerful and All Knowing? Does God have DIFFICULTIES TO EXPLAIN?

I don't see any issue here, obviously when you want to convey the message to non-Muslims, it's logical for you to explain Al-Quran to them. They might not have the same undestanding as you, so it's logical for you to explain to them. You by definition is an external source (outside of Al-Quran).

And nobody claim that:
1) Scholars more clever than God.
2) God could not put the correct meaning.
So, I don't see the objective of your argument. If you think above two points are true, please bring forward the evidence i.e. which scholars say so, etc.