...kenapa manusia berperang...

blastoff

Originally posted by hamizao at 1-2-2009 11:27 PM

Disini saya ingin mengupas apakah dasar semulajadi manusia itu suka berperang.............Apakah motivasinya?

-Agama paling utama yang boleh brainwash manusia untuk mengganas ( ajaran yang tak betul la)  

-Tradisi turun temurun pun gitu jugak macam apa yang berlaku pada puak orang asli dalam hutan amazon dulu-dulu , yang suka berperang sampai ke tahap berbangga simpan kepala musuh sebagai trophy , berderet aje tengkorak musuh sejak tok nenek dulu kala lagi , malah meratah daging musuh pun depa sanggup buat

-Pembawaan mak bapak yang menyanjung dan bangga dengan anak yang berani dan suka perang , maka anak tu membesar dengan mentaliti ingin mendapat pengiktirafan mak bapak dia , lalu apabila bila dapat jadi pemimpin , maka peperangan adalah cara yang dia rasa paling senang nak dapat pengiktirafan . Ini selalunya terjadi pada anak-anak raja la kan , yang akan di beri didikan mengenai perang sejak kecik sampai besar sebagai memupuk sifat suka berperang dalam diri .

- Sistem pemikiran yang songsang dalam society , terutama law terhadap askar - askar yang mewajibkan mereka berperang tanpa ada pilihan bila di minta oleh pemimpin , askar yang "berpaling tadah" dan tak mahu turut serta untuk melancarkan perang akan di hukum itu ini .

- Environment , harta kekayaan yang terdapat dalam environment tertentu menjadi idaman dan rebutan semua macam minyak , emas , rempah ratus , termasuk juga tanah subur etc  lagi susah harta tu nak di perolehi di sebabkan terlalu terhad maka lagi berebut la manusia jadinya untuk memiliki . Jadi peperangan akan sering berlaku di tempat yang ada harta kekayaan begitu lah , macam semut berpusu-pusu pi kat gula kan .

[ Last edited by  blastoff at 2-2-2009 03:59 PM ]

hamizao

Thanks mbf.....am OK and I hope am not too late to wish you a very happy new year.

have you noticed that this Mongolians have been  or rather, now being reduced to a country of nothing but desert- filled , under developed region?
how strange , isn't it?

Well, the Gobi Dessert has always been there even during the times of the Khans. Life was harsh in the region forcing the ppl to be tough and somewhat cruel  by our standard. They became specialist in the art of survival againts all odds. To think that the ppl there was once a nation that ruled a vast region of the known world then is simply astounding. The thing about the Mongols ni, they managed to keep the burial ground of their Great Khans  secret. All those who witnessed the procession and burial were killed so that they may tell no one.

If they, few centuries ago would be the dreaded ones, killing and throwing and crumbling the Persian / Islamic empires - Kuffah and etc etc but now what happened to them..

Remember the Il-khans of Persia and the Moguls of India. As for the remnants that returned to the Gobi region they reverted back to nomadic lives. Those who stayed on in Cremea were later absorbed by the Russians I think  or sent to Siberia.

I think their downfall, as is always the case, was due to the absence of a strong leader........................herein lies the basic need of a nation.

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 3-2-2009 12:25 AM ]

blastoff

Originally posted by hamizao at 3-2-2009 12:17 AM
The thing about the Mongols ni, they managed to keep the burial ground of their Great Khans  secret. All those who witnessed the procession and burial were killed so that they may tell no one.

any particular reason for them to behave this way ? Ada apa-apa berharga ka dalam kubur tu yang perlu di protect dari di curi ?

mbhcsf

The thing about the Mongols ni, they managed to keep the burial ground of their Great Khans  secret. All those who witnessed the procession and burial were killed so that they may tell no one.

What is their rationale of keeping the burial site so secretive , to that extend?

I could be thinking / hypothesizing that it has something to do with the buried treasure  etc etc like the mummies in Egypt? u reckon?

mbhcsf

U mean Cremea as in Crimean?

i thought the Czar 's Nick families love that place for spring ..loads of flowers they said [ i based it on heheh  a book by John T Lescroart - Son of Holmes - u know  i love SHolmes , kan?]

mbhcsf

oh ya the Crimean War too  , not to mention....hmm i have no idea what that is though and why did it occur..

blastoff

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 3-2-2009 09:57 PM

What is their rationale of keeping the burial site so secretive , to that extend?

I could be thinking / hypothesizing that it has something to do with the buried treasure  etc etc like the mummies in Egypt? u reckon?

maharaja china dulu kala punya kubuq lagi sesak dengan beranika ragam patung askar-askar yang di buat sama besar saiz nya dengan manusia biasa pulak tu

hamizao

Biasanya tempat pengkebumian orang2 bangsawan dema dirahsiakan. Hami kira sebab orang2 Mongol ni amat taat kepada tuan mereka dan dengan ketiadaan buku2 sejarah hasil dari tangan mereka sendiri yang kekal ke masa la ni, jadi itulah gamaknya tak sorangpun tahu. Hanya baru2 ini Hami tengok History Channel tentang perjumpaan tanah perkuburan Mongol pada tahun 2001.

Dikatakan, Mongol percaya bahawa the dead should be left in peace. Tanah perkuburan dianggap keramat dan dilarang orang pergi ke situ. Mungkin ini berlandaskan spiritualiti /kepercayaan mereka berkenaan kematian.

Treasure? Ya, ini mereka katalah....belum jumpapun  kubur Genghiz tu. Yang ada dijumpai hanya pasu2 je. Biasanya orang2 nomad ni mana ada banyak barang2.

Maaf, mbf..... tentang ejaan Crimea. Padanlah nampak semacam aje....

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 5-2-2009 12:11 AM ]

hamizao

Condition jiwa juga memainkan peranan dalam menentukan berapa cepat nafsu tu boleh jadi aktif dalam diri seseorang manusia , dalam erti kata lain manusia yang berjiwa kotor lebih mudah terpengaruh kepada motivasi luar , sehingga menyebabkan keinginan untuk berperang menjadi meluap-luap  . Lagi kotor jiwa maka lagi cepat faktor luaran mengaktifkan nafsu tu , sampai tahap out of control thus perang .

I would not go so far as to make a value judgement, though.

Some  say that man is by nature a social animal. When they are in a group surely there would be a leader who would organise themselves for it's contituity/survival. If conditions are harsh, that  would be a lot tougher. Leadership will surely be tested to the utmost. Hence the rise of nations. Nevertheless if there is no challenge, complacency and decadence would soon set in. Hence the the fall of civilization.

So I think, in life there must always be challenges.......which may take the form of motivations. Call it to appease the "nafsu" if you like, Is that bad?

In some communities, there are set ways to evaluate or separate the men from the boys. Hmm...I too remember my dad bringing back 2 pairs of boxing gloves for my brother and a cousin brother who was staying with us. What did this mean?

Medievil  Mongols usually marry outside their own clan , which I think mbf...  would agree is good biologically.   So, to obtain a wife they "kidnapped" them from another tribe. Sometimes this led to battles. How would you judge them?

Well....just a thought malam2 buta ni...

seribulan

why? for the HELL of it

Mansairaku

Originally posted by seribulan at 19-1-2009 11:47 AM
kenapa manusia berperang..?

because life would be too "bland" ... without it? .....

ajinomotonosuga

manusia berperang sebab masih ada kau dan aku dan tidak ada KITA

mbhcsf

Originally posted by hamizao at 5-2-2009 11:39 PM


I would not go so far as to make a value judgement, though.

Some  say that man is by nature a social animal. When they are in a group surely there would be a leader who would organise  ...

why?
hmm may it's due to differences in the value system held by both / or more parties at war, or unmet expectations and lastly self defense. Oh another one would be lack of communication between those parties. Should they try to listen and understandn the issues, they will somehow able to look at each others' perspective and perhaps might come with a few solution or working collaborativley with one another to reduce tension etc etec ...

mbhcsf

dan lebih payah kalau KAU and AKU ni dalam dunia yg berbeza.

mbhcsf

i am interested in finding out what Sun Tzu had said on this..sebab thsi author seemed i dunno at certain aspects, he seemed rather paranoid.

blastoff

Originally posted by hamizao at 5-2-2009 11:39 PM

[quote]Condition jiwa juga memainkan peranan dalam menentukan berapa cepat nafsu tu boleh jadi aktif dalam diri seseorang manusia , dalam erti kata lain manusia yang berjiwa kotor lebih mudah terpengaruh kepada motivasi luar , sehingga menyebabkan keinginan untuk berperang menjadi meluap-luap  . Lagi kotor jiwa maka lagi cepat faktor luaran mengaktifkan nafsu tu , sampai tahap out of control thus perang .

I would not go so far as to make a value judgement, though. [/quote]

Yang I sebut mengenai condition jiwa tu bukan untuk menghakimi, tapi cuma menyatakan the law of nature . Apa saja yang Allah cipta pada tubuh kita bergantung pada satu sama lain kan , maknanya 1 bahagian buat tak kena , mesti ada bahagian lain yang will be affected directly or indirectly , contoh arak apabila di minum banyak maka mabuk , adakah setakat tubuh luaran aje affected , terhoyong hayang aje ? Bagaimana dengan minda ? Juga jelas affected sebab try suruh orang mabuk tu kira satu sampai 10 tengok , tapi bagaimana pulak dengan condition jiwa ?

Tubuh melelong, minda melelong , jiwa maintain stabil tak affected in anyway ? Mustahil la kan . Kalau semua pada tubuh manusia boleh get affected in some way pada kejahatan yang manusia buat , maka mestilah jiwa pun turut get affected jugak sebab jiwa adalah antara bahagian paling penting pada makhluk bernama manusia , tak dak jiwa maka kiok   ! Cuma saintists semua tak nampak condition jiwa maka depa kata tak wujud la .

Jadi macam mana condition jiwa yang affected tu ? Jadi kotor , tapi jiwa nak kotor ambik masa , macam mana kita tau ? Sebab symptom nya tu muncul dalam masa yang lebih lewat . dan apa tanda-tanda jiwa yang kotor ? Tak berperikemanusiaan , tengok aje orang yang mabuk selalu, macam mana dia perlakukan anak bini dia, penerajang , penampar memang selalu naik la ke seluruh badan depa selalunya . Tak pun pantang cakap sikit maka mulalah menengking tak tentu hala . Itu symptom jiwa yang kotor a.k.a jiwa yang melelong .

[ Last edited by  blastoff at 11-2-2009 05:55 PM ]

hamizao

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 9-2-2009 11:40 PM


why?
hmm may it's due to differences in the value system held by both / or more parties at war, or unmet expectations and lastly self defense. Oh another one would be lack of communication b ...

Personally, I believe it goes to show the inharent inequalities  of man. They are never born the same and so are other aspects that mould/influence them......That's why they "huddle" together to gain from one another. To top that, "our mental  life is governed by a cauldron of emotions, motives and desire that we are barely conscious of...." - Dr VS Ramachandran. It will take sound reasoning to clearly understand issues but alas, emotions, motives and desire do dissipate reasons. All in all, I think man's decision making instrument can be so faulty.........

No, seribulan, I beg to defer. No one goes to war for the heck of it. There is always a reason.......no matter how unreasonable it might seem to others.

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 11-2-2009 11:45 PM ]

hamizao

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 9-2-2009 11:42 PM
i am interested in finding out what Sun Tzu had said on this..sebab thsi author seemed i dunno at certain aspects, he seemed rather paranoid.

All I can say for now is he is more on the art of war rather than it's philosophy.

blastoff

Originally posted by hamizao at 11-2-2009 11:42 PM

All in all, I think man's decision making instrument can be so faulty.........

were you referring to the brain , or the human reasoning capability  ?

hamizao

The whole system may be faulty.....