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Israeli Military Hardware (ex- Israeli Armour)

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Post time 21-9-2006 12:54 AM | Show all posts








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Post time 21-9-2006 12:58 AM | Show all posts






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Post time 21-9-2006 02:12 AM | Show all posts
I absolutely HATE the fact that we cannot buy Israeli weapons. Whatever their politics, they make excellent weapons and they also make superb upgrades on old equipment. Just check out these links:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_28.shtml

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/w ... ks/sabra/Sabra.html

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/w ... o/Popeye_Turbo.html
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Post time 21-9-2006 07:44 AM | Show all posts
Excellent weapon dia orang buat tu tak semestinya bagus, proven dlm konflik Lubnan. Banyak lagi source lain yg kita boleh dapatkan excellent weapon, cthnya Afrika Selatan dan Turkey, selain Brazil, German, Italy, France dan UK. Bear in mind, weapon Afrika Selatan mempunyai banyak persamaan ngan Israel kerana depa ada link dengan Israel.
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Post time 21-9-2006 08:28 AM | Show all posts

Reply #103 johngage's post

Well we can buy, but what will the people say? Besides sometimes I think Isareli stuff look cool and excellent because of the crappiness of the opposing armies. Well the HBs have shown that it is not strictly true, right?
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Post time 21-9-2006 08:52 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by windof at 21-9-2006 07:44 AM
Excellent weapon dia orang buat tu tak semestinya bagus, proven dlm konflik Lubnan. Banyak lagi source lain yg kita boleh dapatkan excellent weapon, cthnya Afrika Selatan dan Turkey, selain Brazil, ...


:setuju:

Hanya banyak di propagandakan jer......
Konon deme tu adalah the BEST dalam semuer segi.

Tup tup kantoi Merkava Mark V bbrp bijik dgn IED.

Amacam?
:
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Post time 21-9-2006 10:41 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by spiderweb6969 at 20-9-2006 10:13 PM






http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2005 ...


bukan kawasan site (kem)  ni kene serang dengan Hizbullah ker..??



Best Operation Ever!!

http://ia300219.us.archive.org/2 ... oon/Al-Galiboon.wmv

http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthr ... &extra=page%3D2
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Post time 21-9-2006 12:11 PM | Show all posts
<<Excellent weapon dia orang buat tu tak semestinya bagus, proven dlm konflik Lubnan>>

True. But I don't think that u can blame it all on the weapons. Strategy and tactics also count, in this case Olmert's lack of military experience,  an over-reliance on air power, and poor intelligence. I don't think that this is necessarily the fault of the weapons, but the human factor behind it.

Nobody can deny that Israel did poorly in this conflict. But they have also won 4 major wars (War of Independence (1948), Sinai Campaign (1956), Six Day War (1967), and Yom Kippur War (1973) using their weapons. Surely, not all their weapons can be bad?

<<Banyak lagi source lain yg kita boleh dapatkan excellent weapon, cthnya Afrika Selatan dan Turkey, selain Brazil, German, Italy, France dan UK. Bear in mind, weapon Afrika Selatan mempunyai banyak persamaan ngan Israel kerana depa ada link dengan Israel>>

Again, very true. But I don't think its a coincidence that Israeli weapons are bought all over the world. They have a reputation for being very rugged. They often use off the shelf components, for e.g. pram wheels for their UAV's. These weapons are also constantly refined because of Israel's frequent wars.

Furthermore, Israel also pioneered the use of many weapons, such as UAV and AWACS, for which they are considered among the world leaders in this technology. They also have excellent scientists, frequently JV with the US at cutting edge technology projects and have world-class  research facilities at the Technion. But there are other reasons why their weapons are popular.

1) Cost- Most weapons from the US, UK, and EU are extremely expensive. Israel's weapons are competitively priced in comparison and are not over-engineered. It is striking that the UK for e.g. have chosen the Israeli made Spike as their primary AT weapon over any domestic made weapon. This coming from a country with a big arms industry.

2) Niche markets- Israel have great experience at upgrades. They have spotted a gap in the market for countries who do not have the budget to buy new tanks and aircraft and have kits available which will effectively upgrade them for a fraction of the cost of buying new, Just look at the Sniper upgrade they developed with Romania. Again this is a market which is unlikely to interest the EU/UK, but would be extremely useful for countries like Malaysia.

3) Access to US R & D-  Israel's decision to sell the Phalcon AWACS to China was opposed by the US. Again this is no coincidence. The US are perfectly happy for China to buy any Russian made AWACS because they know that it doesn't have the ability to shift the strategic balance in their favour. But Phalcon has cutting edge US tech and the US knows that.

<<Well we can buy, but what will the people say?>>

U r absolutely right. At the end of the day its a political decision and there is no way we are going to buy weapons from a country we don't recognise. I guess I am not very political. Personally, I don't care where Malaysia's weapons come from, as long as they are the best weapons we can buy, and can kill Malaysia's enemies effectively.

<<Hanya banyak di propagandakan jer......
Konon deme tu adalah the BEST dalam semuer segi.

Tup tup kantoi Merkava Mark V bbrp bijik dgn IED.

Amacam?>>

Tidak ada senjata yang kebal. Tidak ada MBT dalam dunia yang boleh tahan IED seperti peluru artileri 155mm. Tetapi bukan bermakna MBT itu tidak bagus. Kalau IED saja yang perlu, apa guna kita membazir duit rakyat membeli Metis-M, Eryx dan Carl Gustaf? Kalau IED tu cukup, kenapa US boleh tawan Baghdad? Kenapa askar Iraq tak mengguna IED untuk memusnahkan semua kereta kebal US?

Dalam konflik Lebanon, Hezbollah menembak lebih kurang 500 senjata AT. Merkava yang terkena dalam 30 buah. Tapi dari 30 itu hanya 10 sehaja yang rosak teruk dan binasa. Jadi berbanding dgn senjata yang diggunakan, 500 kali tembak untuk bunuh hanya 10 bukanlah bermakna Merkava itu bukan MBT bagus. Kalau MBT jenis lain boleh jadi beratus yang binasa.

[ Last edited by  johngage at 21-9-2006 12:13 PM ]
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Post time 21-9-2006 12:40 PM | Show all posts
<True. But I don't think that u can blame it all on the weapons. Strategy and tactics also count, in this case Olmert's lack of military experience,  an over-reliance on air power, and poor intelligence. I don't think that this is necessarily the fault of the weapons, but the human factor behind it.>

Pasai tu kita develop manpower and expertise kita lebih dari senjata. Kalau senjata canggih mana pun tapi tak dak expertise payah jugak, tapi kalau manpower brilliant walaupun weapon bukan Israel punya, still boleh kalahkan musuh.

Kesimpulannya john, semua senjata sama aja, tak da yg kebal atau tahan lama. Abrams tu pun tak tahan kena hentam ATGW moden. Merkava pun serupa, PT91 pun sama jugak. Pasai tu kita beli sikit jer. Kerana risk tank battle zaman sekarang ni dah berubah, tak macam dulu lagi. Lebih baik tambahkan bilangan ATGW yg boleh digerakkan dlm ATV2 bermobiliti tinggi dan mempunyai keupayaan utk bergerak secara senyap tanpa dikesan dalam environment negara yg banyak tempat2 ambush semulajadi. Disamping keperluan senjata2 personal berkuasa tinggi yg dapat membinasakan personnel dan material dari jauh jauh dan dekat.  We are developing our future warrior now, those planners know what they are doing, just give them the space and support to do it alrite john.....
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Post time 21-9-2006 02:00 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by johngage at 21-9-2006 12:11 PM
<<Excellent weapon dia orang buat tu tak semestinya bagus, proven dlm konflik Lubnan>>

True. But I don't think that u can blame it all on the weapons. Strategy and tactics also count ...
Tidak ada senjata yang kebal. Tidak ada MBT dalam dunia yang boleh tahan IED seperti peluru artileri 155mm. Tetapi bukan bermakna MBT itu tidak bagus. Kalau IED saja yang perlu, apa guna kita membazir duit rakyat membeli Metis-M, Eryx dan Carl Gustaf? Kalau IED tu cukup, kenapa US boleh tawan Baghdad? Kenapa askar Iraq tak mengguna IED untuk memusnahkan semua kereta kebal US?

Dalam konflik Lebanon, Hezbollah menembak lebih kurang 500 senjata AT. Merkava yang terkena dalam 30 buah. Tapi dari 30 itu hanya 10 sehaja yang rosak teruk dan binasa. Jadi berbanding dgn senjata yang diggunakan, 500 kali tembak untuk bunuh hanya 10 bukanlah bermakna Merkava itu bukan MBT bagus. Kalau MBT jenis lain boleh jadi beratus yang binasa.


:setuju:

U has a point there....Johngage

In Iraq during the war against the US/Allied.....the Iraqis didn't use the Hizbullah tactics.
Deme lawan secara conventional.
Mati woooo.............sudah ler 10 tahun kena arms embargo.

Hizbullah learned it from Vietname War.........to defeat the Superpower, one has only to kill their soldiers as many as they could.
This will create a mess back home.....

US n Israel tak bley mati banyak askar nya....Johngage.
Thats why they are inventing a lots of things to ensure that their soldiers will survive the battle.
This how Merkava n Abram is born.

US because takut kena kritik dgn penduduk nya...Israel pulak kerana jumlah penduduk yg sedikit.
Walaupun di Peperangan Lebanon menentang Hizbullah ini....kematian di pihak nya adalah sedikit TETAPI masih di anggap TINGGI peratusan nya berbanding dgn jumlah penduduk Israel.

Anyway, Malaysia actually can do better in arms procurement.
TAPI.....masaalah nya adalah Jerung Perkasa n Politikus.

Khdimat utk Negara amat lah kurengggggg......................
Semuer mau $$$$$$ :
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Post time 21-9-2006 03:05 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by johngage at 21-9-2006 12:11 PM
<<Excellent weapon dia orang buat tu tak semestinya bagus, proven dlm konflik Lubnan>>

True. But I don't think that u can blame it all on the weapons. Strategy and tactics also count ...


you are right man.....itu lah sebab kenapa aku letak gambar hanit, merkava kena tembak, accident ect ect....untuk menunjukkan senjata mereka tu sebenarnyer memang bagus dan ada kualiti....at the same time aku pun sengaja menaruk gambar askar askar mereka dan tempat tidur mereka yang rata rata nyer macam orang biasa, yang lawa, yang hodoh, dan gemuk, takde apa apa yang istimewa, mereka menggunakkan akal, lagi satu contoh yang baik is seni mempertahan diri krav maga....
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Post time 21-9-2006 11:04 PM | Show all posts
















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Post time 21-9-2006 11:07 PM | Show all posts












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Post time 22-9-2006 02:59 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by alphawolf at 21-9-2006 08:28 AM
Well we can buy, but what will the people say? Besides sometimes I think Isareli stuff look cool and excellent because of the crappiness of the opposing armies. Well the HBs have shown that it is n ...

What Hezis have shown? There were thousands of Hezis eqiped with most modern missiles in bunkers that they dig for 6 years!!! Israel stormed them and took tens of villages losing 100 soldiers.

I want to remind you that US lost over 6,000 soldiers when stormed tiny island of Ivojima. In 1939 USSR lost over 140,000 soldiers storming tiny strip of bunkers on border with Finland.
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Post time 22-9-2006 04:01 AM | Show all posts
<<Kesimpulannya john, semua senjata sama aja, tak da yg kebal atau tahan lama>>

I agree. The human factor is crucial and that is why training is important. But its not true that all weapons are the same. A trained soldier can kill a man with a combat-knife. A trained soldier can also kill a man with a an M-16. But you cannot say that a knife is a more effective weapon than an M-16 in the hands of a trained soldier. Similarly, if the trained soldier was sent on a mission, he is more likely to succeed with an M-16 than a knife. If weapons are all the same than there is absolutely no point in equipping the MAF with modern weapons. Kita guna kris dan tombak macam zaman Hang Tuah sehaja. The truth is that BOTH are important, the man AND the weapon.

<< Kerana risk tank battle zaman sekarang ni dah berubah, tak macam dulu lagi. Lebih baik tambahkan bilangan ATGW yg boleh digerakkan dlm ATV2 bermobiliti tinggi dan mempunyai keupayaan utk bergerak secara senyap tanpa dikesan dalam environment negara yg banyak tempat2 ambush semulajadi. Disamping keperluan senjata2 personal berkuasa tinggi yg dapat membinasakan personnel dan material dari jauh jauh dan dekat.  We are developing our future warrior now, those planners know what they are doing, just give them the space and support to do it alrite john..... >>

Yang ini saya setuju 100%. Absolutely true. Apa guna kita lawan musuh dengan kekuatan dia? Kalau dia lawan dengan besi, kita lawan dengan api. Tidak payah lawan MBT dengan MBT. Kita lawan MBT dengan senjata ATGW yang paling bagus yang kita boleh afford, dan SPG banyak dan modern. Dalam pendapat saya, kerana peruntukan ATM kecil:

1) You need to focus on having lots of core weapons systems, i.e. small arms (pistols, SMGs, rifles and machine guns), light anti-tank systems (AT-4 or Carl Gustav type) and light artillery (105 and 155mm howitzer, 81 and 120mm mortar). light or mechanised infantry. If you can produce these, then you are reasonably capable of defending yourself. Focus on small unit combat, i.e. companies, battalions and brigades, not divisions, with emphasis on mobility.

2) Small but modern airforce- just as deterrent value not really for air defence. Able to inflict some damage on an attacking force but no more than that.

3) Very modern SAM system-  This will be responsible for air-defence. An SA-20 group command post and a half-dozen SA-20 battalions, with a BIG BIRD, and a half-dozen FLAP LID, TOMB STONE, and CLAM SHELL radars, supported by a few SA-11 brigades with a half-dozen SA-11 batteries each, and with an SA-15 battery for point defense at each SA-20 site, all tied together with some modern C2 equipment like UNIVERSAL or FUNDAMENT.

[ Last edited by  johngage at 22-9-2006 07:42 AM ]
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Post time 22-9-2006 04:44 PM | Show all posts
Femes jugak forum military kat cari ni  sampai ke kibutz Jurusalem pun depa jumpa forum ni..

Anyway aku setuju dengan pendapat John tu. ATM boleh belajar dari episod ni. Kita perlu tubuhkan lebih banyak hunter killer teams yang mobile lengkap dengan ATGM modern tetapi tahan lasak mcm RPG29 dan Milan. Mobility is important kenderaan macam G-wagon atau Land rover boleh membantu tetapi penggunaan motorsikal juga boleh diambil kira terutama oleh team yg dilengkapi MANPADS [Igla, Anza dan Starburst now Starstreak]. Tapi semua kelengkapan ni tak bermakna kalau anggota tidak bersikap kental, sabar dan berani mcm semangat yg ditubuhkan oleh pejuang2 hezbollah tu..Fighting spirits counts...
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Post time 22-9-2006 05:21 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Nick_Perelman at 22-9-2006 02:59 AM

What Hezis have shown? There were thousands of Hezis eqiped with most modern missiles in bunkers that they dig for 6 years!!! Israel stormed them and took tens of villages losing 100 soldiers.

...


eja Iwojima pun tak betul.... :lol:puke:
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Post time 22-9-2006 11:04 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by HangPC2 at 22-9-2006 05:21 PM


eja Iwojima pun tak betul.... :lol:puke:

I dont understand Malay unfortunaly.
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Post time 23-9-2006 01:19 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by johngage at 22-9-2006 04:01 AM1)  light artillery (105 and 155mm howitzer, 81 and 120mm mortar). light or mechanised infantry.



105mm are out moded nowadays. We needed them for precision fire decades ago but not now. A modern 155mm will do a great the job from  long range.
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Post time 23-9-2006 07:06 AM | Show all posts
Example of cooperation: Singapore assualt rifle SAR-21 with Israeli sight Mepor:

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