True Christians should reject the New Testament
I find this article very interesting and logical. The gist of it :1. The only scripture accepted before Christ’s time (by the Jews) was their (Old) Testament.
2. The only scripture accepted at Christ’s time by Christ was the Jewish (Old) Testament.
3. The only scripture which existed after Christ’s time during the time of the disciples was the Jewish (Old) Testament.
4. The only scripture which existed after Christ’s time during the time of the presbyters was the Jewish (Old) Testament.
5. The only scripture which existed after Christ’s time during the time of the patristics was the Jewish (Old) Testament.
5. At no point in the above time periods, was it ever mandatory to believe in a Gospel to be a believer in the Messiah.
the onus is upon those who take the New Testament as inspired scripture, to explain why they believe themselves to be superior to Christ and his disciples. I say this, because while they hold it mandatory to believe in the New Testament as scripture and the word of God, Christ himself never mandated this, nor did any of his disciples or those after them.
Any comments fellow Christians?
Here's the problem :
Old Testament indicates God who has no children, very strict and hold His followers to the Laws (of the Ten Commandment). This means that Jesus cannot be made into Son of God. It is possible to levitate the status of Humans as Children of God (since Old Testament clearly shows that God created the Human Race and therefore, can be called Father).
Therefore, if one were to follow the above article, one must reject Christ's status as (sole) Son of God and the Laws of the Old Testament must be abided. @sam
have you acknowledge the Arianism (aka Unitarian) ? they were Orthodox Christian but incompatible with Trinity belief,
strangely they were claim as "heresy" by Catholics, They saying Yeshua is merely men with God divine but hes not God himself
H猷L鰃頧 posted on 18-7-2013 10:39 PM static/image/common/back.gif
@sam
have you acknowledge the Arianism (aka Unitarian) ? they were Orthodox Christian but incompatible with Trinity belief,
strangely they were claim as "heresy" by Catholics, They saying Yeshua is merely men with God divine but hes not God himself
Arianism was thought to be founded by Presbyter Arius in Alexandria , Egypt ~ CE290. Roughly , they believe that the Father and Son did not exist together eternally. They believe that the pre incarnate Son (biblical Jesus) was divine but created by God the father at some point of time before which he did not exist.
One of the founders of Unitarianism was Fausto Sozzini ~ 1580. Their christology varies. Roughly :
- biblical Jesus was a human ie. his pre existence rejected
- biblical Jesus was a human but due to his greatness was adopted by God
- biblical Jesus literally became the Son of God when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Macam macam ada.
However the point here is that nowhere during the time of biblical Jesus and a time after him existed the New Testament in any shape or form. In reality , biblical Jesus did not know anything about the New Testament and did not demand for his followers to have faith in it.
Last edited by sam1528 on 19-7-2013 02:52 PM
why must one concern all this??? believed in GODand love GOD...life will be easy and peace Truth.8 posted on 19-7-2013 03:46 PM static/image/common/back.gif
why must one concern all this??? believed in GODand love GOD...life will be easy and peace
Do you have faith in the New Testament , it being the word of your biblical God?
Who told you to have faith in the New Testament?
Lets see your honesty in answering. Ha ha , as usual you will never answer but try to shift the goalposts again.
The poster of this thread must be short on IQ or the writer of the original argument.
Lets not argue abt the divinity here, lets concentrate on the old and new testament.
You have to first understand the word testament - an agreement of faith (in writing in this case).
Root word is 'testan' in Latin which means to BEAR WITNESS.
As all muslims and christians, and jews know the Old Testament carries the stories of the lives of a long line of Prophets and their deeds.
But did the Prophets write their own chapters - NO. Their stories were written down by those who follow them and eventually put them in writing.
Just as Jesus ministry - the New Testament is just a collection of work about the life and ministry of Jesus. Jesus did not write the New Testament. It is the work of disciples who BEAR WITNESS to the work of the Christ.
But since the Jews do not believe he is the Messiah and last Jewish Prophet - of course he will not be added to the Old Testament.
Duuuhhhhh. Last edited by nightlord on 19-7-2013 09:54 PM
nightlord posted on 19-7-2013 09:53 PM static/image/common/back.gif
The poster of this thread must be short on IQ or the writer of the original argument.
Lets not argue abt the divinity here, lets concentrate on the old and new testament.
You have to first understand the word testament - an agreement of faith (in writing in this case).
Root word is 'testan' in Latin which means to BEAR WITNESS.
As all muslims and christians, and jews know the Old Testament carries the stories of the lives of a long line of Prophets and their deeds.
But did the Prophets write their own chapters - NO. Their stories were written down by those who follow them and eventually put them in writing.
Just as Jesus ministry - the New Testament is just a collection of work about the life and ministry of Jesus. Jesus did not write the New Testament. It is the work of disciples who BEAR WITNESS to the work of the Christ.
But since the Jews do not believe he is the Messiah and last Jewish Prophet - of course he will not be added to the Old Testament.
Duuuhhhhh.
You did not answer the question. The issue is that biblical Jesus did not even know about the New Testament. He came to to fulfill the laws and the existing scripture during his time was and still is the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible. Where do you get the notion that the New Testament is the word of the biblical God whereas biblical Jesus did not even know anything about the New Testament assuming to your beliefs that biblical Jesus was / is God.
Let me get this straight. You stated :
Just as Jesus ministry - the New Testament is just a collection of work about the life and ministry of Jesus. Jesus did not write the New Testament. It is the work of disciples who BEAR WITNESS to the work of the Christ.
Disciples who bear witness to the works of biblical Jesus? The authors of the 4 gospels were unknowns. Paul was not a disciple of biblical Jesus nor he ever met , walked and talked with biblical Jesus. Lets assume the author of the book of acts is the same author for the Gospel according to Luke - an unknown. Scholars are in the opinion that Petrine scholarship was written by an unknown. Book of Revelation was written a person who was not an eyewitness. We don't know who wrote the book of Hebrews. Except for James , who were the so called eye witnesses to the work of biblical Jesus of them being authors of the books of the New Testament?
You jumped too soon. I advise you to go back and do a bit of research and let us know on what basis that you are obliged to have faith in the New Testament which biblical Jesus , your supposed God had no idea of. How can it be the word of the biblical God? We have not even touched on the process of verifying the reliability of the narrations as the books of the New Testament were written decades after the passing of biblical Jesus.
You seem angry. When you criticize Islam we can go toe to toe , point for point. The same is expected of you when in turn your faith is being questioned. Lets be consistent about this issue. You must be able to take in what you dish out. Don't tell me that christians like you can only question and criticize Islam but muslims cannot do like wise. A bit lopsided , agree?
Last edited by sam1528 on 19-7-2013 11:47 PM
What about Ebionites? :o
- which book do they refer? by nightlord
Just as Jesus ministry - the New Testament is just a collection of work about the life and ministry of Jesus. Jesus did not write the New Testament. It is the work of disciples who BEAR WITNESS to the work of the Christ.
If that is true, then where are the Books written by Mary and Joseph, who raise Jesus from baby and he had started to do miracles even at young age? They must have lived with him for at least 10 yrs.
Where is the Book written by Mary Maglene? She was the ONLY person to remain by Jesus's side during his teaching, during his ordeals in hands of the Romans and finally at his last days on the cross when all the other disciples RAN AWAY?
Your New Testament is nothing more than testament of cowards and liars who created a new religion in name of Jesus (and whatever he preached). 'The issue is that biblical Jesus did not even know about the New Testament'.
I am sorry to be the one to tell you that you have something short in between your ears.
If you dont understand my simple reply before , do ask someone brighter than you - like your wife. :dizzy:
Now when you say that we do not know the writers of the New Testament - is so false. It is like saying you know who actually physically wrote the Quran. And if you say the Quran was written by Allah, i fear your IQ may be lower than i thought.
The writers of the 4 Gospels were Mark, Mathew, Luke, John. Were they the actual persons who inked the first issue - We dont know that. But we do know that in their time, followers of the DISCIPLES would write down the lessons taught by their 'teachers' but would write the name of the disciples as the author.So whose words are in the 4 Gosples ? The words of the disciples of Jesus.
Did Paul know Jesus? Of course not. That is already said in the Bible. So why is he so prominent that is personal letters to other branches of the early church are included in the Bible?
Because his word embraces and reflects on the work of the original disciples who were already ministering to other jews. Paul was assigned to bring the Gospels tothe gentiles (non Jews). Without Paul Christianity would have perished and forgotton because ALL original disciples did not make much headway with the jews (as fortold in the old testament), and all eventually lost their lives.
But not Paul. Paul's understanding of the first church and the message of Jesus brought the Gospels to the gentiles.
Converted them and eventually converted the whole Roman Empire - the most powerful nation on earth at that time.
by Nightlord
The writers of the 4 Gospels were Mark, Mathew, Luke, John. Were they the actual persons who inked the first issue - We dont know that. But we do know that in their time, followers of the DISCIPLES would write down the lessons taught by their 'teachers' but would write the name of the disciples as the author.So whose words are in the 4 Gosples ? The words of the disciples of Jesus.
Do you actually read and understand what you write? :shakehead3:
Here I have highlighted couple of things which clearly shows that even a devoted Christian like you seems to have doubt whatever the Bible is Words of Jesus.
You said you don't know whether they were actual person named Matthew, Luke, Mark and John. If you look through list of Hebrew names (follow the links below), you will notice that such names doesn't exist in Hebrew list (now they may have, but not 2,000 yrs ago).
Source : http://www.allhebrewnames.com/hebnames/en/home.seam?letter=A&pageID=1
Therefore, there is NO author named Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Those are English names, gives by English translators and "authors" in 1600s when the Bible started to be printed out in mass. Therefore, you have NO IDEA who were the original writers or that if it is even the original teachings of Jesus.
You also stated that they would have wrote it down, therefore, you have no idea if those words were even written two thousand years ago or have any link to Jesus or even if such person (Jesus) even exist. For all we know, it could be just another story like Hercules, Percelus and such, created by Romans so Christianity could be understood easily by those ignorant mass. Or that it could be a story created by the Roman Emperor, Tiberius in attempt to mix Judaism with Roman Pagan belief and change Yahweh to Zeus-like God. nightlord posted on 23-7-2013 11:00 PM static/image/common/back.gif
'The issue is that biblical Jesus did not even know about the New Testament'.
I am sorry to be the one to tell you that you have something short in between your ears.
If you dont understand my simple reply before , do ask someone brighter than you - like your wife. http://mforum.cari.com.my/static/image/smiley/default/dizzy.gif
Now when you say that we do not know the writers of the New Testament - is so false. It is like saying you know who actually physically wrote the Quran. And if you say the Quran was written by Allah, i fear your IQ may be lower than i thought.
The writers of the 4 Gospels were Mark, Mathew, Luke, John. Were they the actual persons who inked the first issue - We dont know that. But we do know that in their time, followers of the DISCIPLES would write down the lessons taught by their 'teachers' but would write the name of the disciples as the author.So whose words are in the 4 Gosples ? The words of the disciples of Jesus.
Did Paul know Jesus? Of course not. That is already said in the Bible. So why is he so prominent that is personal letters to other branches of the early church are included in the Bible?
Because his word embraces and reflects on the work of the original disciples who were already ministering to other jews. Paul was assigned to bring the Gospels tothe gentiles (non Jews). Without Paul Christianity would have perished and forgotton because ALL original disciples did not make much headway with the jews (as fortold in the old testament), and all eventually lost their lives.
But not Paul. Paul's understanding of the first church and the message of Jesus brought the Gospels to the gentiles.
Converted them and eventually converted the whole Roman Empire - the most powerful nation on earth at that time.
Ha ha , your post is so full of rethoric but lack facts. In other words , biblical Jesus - your supposedly God , did not know anything about the New Testament. TQ for your indirect admission. Something that bearwitness , ie. the NT , does not mean it is the teaching itself. Moresoever the writings that supposedly 'bear witness' came decades after the fact and by people who did not even even know biblical Jesus. Suddenly it becomes the 'word of your biblical God'? Can you explain such logic? Therefore your 'simple reply' is just skirting around the issue but not addressing the issue at all. Try again , this time harder.
Who physically wrote the Quran? The scribes of Prophet Muhammad(saw) of course. However the difference is that his scribes wrote it immediately upon a revelation and it is being read back to check for the accuracy of documentation. That is why when Prophet Muhammad(saw) passed away , 'suhuf Hafash' the document of the Quran was already available. Not to mention the memorizers of the Quran.
I stated 2 things with regards to the authors of the NT
(1) The authors of the 4 Gospels and book of Hebrews were unknowns
(2) Apart from James who authored the book of James , the rest like Paul did not met , walked and talked with biblical Jesus
Why are you trying to change the argument to
Now when you say that we do not know the writers of the New Testament - is so falseThis is dishonesty
All mainstream biblical scholars are in the opinion that the writers of the 4 gospels were unknowns. Appears that fundamental christianity has fried your brains. On what basis do you claim the the authors of the 4 gospels were known? Of course they are actual persons but unknown persons. Now you have shifted your argument to be the words of the disciples of biblical Jesus? If the writers of the gospels were unknown , how do you know that they were the followers of the disciples? In effect , how can it be the 'words of your biblical God'? You have a big problem here. For all you know , the source for what the authors of the 4 gospels could have been gossips in the markets or the watering holes at that time.
I disagree. Paul was actually in loggerheads with the original disciples of biblical Jesus. The following provides an insight to their contradictory teachings :
Paul - rom3:28 '.. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law..'
James - james2:24 '..You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone..'
Simply put : J = justified ; F = faith ; W = works
For Paul : J = F - W
For James : J = F + W
James was supposedly to be biblical Jesus half brother and his disciple whereas Paul never met , walked and talked with biblical Jesus. Clearly the teachings of Paul was not in line with the disciples of biblical Jesus. Without Paul , Christianity would have been what the Isrealites were taught by biblical Jesus as he was teacher for the Israelites only (mat15:24) - be Torah observant. The scripture present in the time of biblical Jesus.
Last edited by sam1528 on 24-7-2013 12:45 PM
"You said you don't know whether they were actual person named Matthew, Luke, Mark and John. If you look through list of Hebrew names (follow the links below), you will notice that such names doesn't exist in Hebrew list (now they may have, but not 2,000 yrs ago)."
Well you might as well say that the name Jesus does not exist in the Hebrew list of names.
Please understand that the Bible was transalated into Latin and Greek for the benefit of the Gentiles. This include language translation of (as you guessed it) - NAMES. So you will find some names have been translated also in the NEW Testament since olden day names have specific meanings.
So,
Matthew is of Hebrew origin. Its Hebrew form is Mattityahu (Matt-tee-YAH-hou), maning "gift of Yahweh" (God).
Mark is a Latin name . Its Latin form is Marcus (MAR-koos), meaning "sea-green" or "hammer"..
Luke is a Greek name. Its Greek form is Loukas (LOO-kass), meaning from Lucania, a region in Italy.
John is a Hebrew name. Its Hebrew form is Yochanan (Yoh-HAH-nan), meaning "Yahweh (God) is gracious".
nightlord posted on 26-7-2013 11:08 PM static/image/common/back.gif
"You said you don't know whether they were actual person named Matthew, Luke, Mark and John. If you...
Your response is to 'sepiroth' , not me. I am still waiting for your response to the issues I raised.
This is a bonus issue for you.
Why did Protestants stop reading the Apocrypha?
Answer : Because they wanted cheaper Bibles.
English-speaking Protestants lost the Deuterocanon not through any calculated theological decision, but through publishing accident, and at quite a recent date. Prior to the early nineteenth century, Anglo-American Bibles included the apocryphal section, but this dropped out as printers sought to produce more and cheaper editions. Increasingly too, during the nineteenth century, anti-Catholic sentiment encouraged Protestants to draw a sharp line between the two variant Bibles. If Catholics esteemed books like Maccabees and Wisdom, there must be something terribly wrong with them.
By John Byron - Professor of New Testament at Ashland Theological Seminary
Whoops ....
"You also stated that they would have wrote it down, therefore, you have no idea if those words were even written two thousand years ago or have any link to Jesus or even if such person (Jesus) even exist. For all we know, it could be just another story like Hercules, Percelus and such, created by Romans so Christianity could be understood easily by those ignorant mass. Or that it could be a story created by the Roman Emperor, Tiberius in attempt to mix Judaism with Roman Pagan belief and change Yahweh to Zeus-like God."
Well i could easily say the same thing abt Hinduism - who are the writers and or is it just a fairy tale.
Can we ask this scholar? :o
cYt3oom0pJg
Dzulqarnain posted on 27-7-2013 02:23 AM static/image/common/back.gif
Can we ask this scholar?
dah lammaa dah depa tanya, siap wat ala2 BBmovie lagik..;P
WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?
-ISoUzy_6K4 nightlord posted on 26-7-2013 11:08 PM static/image/common/back.gif
"You said you don't know whether they were actual person named Matthew, Luke, Mark and John. If you...
And when was the translation was made? Do you know the date? The person or people who did the translations? Who were the people who are using the translated copy? What was the original Source of the New Testament?
If you say it is a translation, it could mean that there must be an original source from which the translation was done. If you say that there is no source and that Gentiles merely "wrote" their own Bible, then how is shows that the Bible has any connections to the Old Testament?
xyah layan mamat @Sephiroth ngan @wkk5159 ni....sorang hindu,sorang lgi freethinker....ignore je sume posting diorang kalau ada related ngan kristian.....
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