Rebirth - What is it?
The one concept in Buddhism that i am not comfortable in accepting is Rebirth.I understand the Buddhist concept of rebirth is different from re-incarnation as in the Hindu concept.
What are your views of Rebirth?
Here is some views on Rebirth by Ven S Dhammika
http://www.buddhanet.net/3-gqga.htm
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Questions on Rebirth
Where do beings come from and where are they going
How does the mind go from one body to another
Is one always reborn as a human being
What decides where beings will be reborn
So if our lives are determined by our karma, can we change it
Is there any proof that we will be reborn when we die
Isn't talk about rebirth superstitious
Well, have there ever been any scientists who believe in rebirth
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans25.htm
When we die, the mind, with all the tendencies, preferences, abilities and characteristics that have been developed and conditioned in this life, re-establishes itself in a fertilised egg. Thus the individual grows, is re-born and develops a personality conditioned both by the mental characteristics that have been carried over. And by the new environment, the personality will change and be modified by conscious effort ;and conditioning factors like education, parental influence and society and once again at death, re-establishing itself in a new fertilised egg. This process of dying and being reborn will continue until the conditions that cause it, craving and ignorance, cease. When they do, instead of being reborn, the mind attains a state called Nirvana and this is the ultimate goal of Buddhism and the purpose of life.
How does the mind go from one body to another? http://www.buddhanet.net/ans26.htm
Think of it being like radio waves. The radio waves, which are not made up of words and music but energy at different frequencies, are transmitted, travel through space, and attracted to and picked up by the receiver from where they are broadcast as words and music. It is the same with the mind. At death, mental energy travels through space, is attracted to and picked up by the fertilised egg. As the embryo grows, it centres itself in the brain from where it later broadcasts itself as the new personality.
Now how is it possible for a five year old living in England who had never been to Spain to know all these details? And of course, this is not the only case of this type. Professor Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia抯 Department of Psychology has described dozens of cases of this type in his books. He is an accredited scientist whose 25 year study of people who remember former lives is very strong evidence for the Buddhist teaching of rebirth.
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Comments:
I must really apply the "Kalama Sutta" to the above.
The question is? if traces of the personality can be transferred from one person to a new birth, why is it not a common occurence?
I think the concept of rebirth would probably arise from the the following;
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Dp 188
It is the same fear that give rise to the narrow interpretation of rebirth.
I understand there are various alternative interpretation of rebirths which are different from the above. Rebirth in the context of other religions and other Buddhist beliefs
One of the features that distinguishes the Middle Eastern religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) from the Indian religions (most notably Hinduism and Buddhism) is the view of life and death. For the religions of the Middle East, life and death are linear: a being is born, lives, and then dies, at which point their soul or other death-surviving component, transmigrates to a domain that is not normally accessible to living beings and generally remains there indefinitely, or until some future at the end of the world. (There are exceptions to this rule, such as the dibbukim of Judaism, but those are in fact exceptions rather than the rule.)
For the religions of India, existence is cyclical. A being is born, lives, dies and then is re-born. For Hinduism, this process is known as reincarnation and provides a framework that is consistent with its other beliefs. There is a permanent self (atman, which would equate to the soul in western philosophy) which survives death and comes back into flesh (reincarnates) as another living being, based on its karmic inheritance.
For Buddhism, this theory is inconsistent with its primary philosophy which postulates that
there is nothing that is permanent and survives death (anicca)
there is no ultimate self (anatta)
Buddhism was founded in the context of Hinduism. The Buddha was born and grew up in a Hindu society, where belief in reincarnation was integral to the religious and cultural composition of that society. Yet the mechanics of reincarnation cannot be so easily explained, given the above principles of Buddhism.
The Buddha set out the law of dependent origination which seeks to explain the complex steps that lead from death to a new life, using the term rebirth rather than reincarnation. Thus it can be seen that rebirth is a derivative view of reincarnation that maintains consistency with the remainder of Buddhist belief.
At the same time (and paralleled in other terminology definitions, such as Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) there is another, more refined view of rebirth which describes the cycle of death and rebirth in the context of consciousness rather bodily birth and death. Rebirth as Buddhist Reincarnation
Rebirth as Buddhist Reincarnation
Within Buddhism, the term rebirth or re-becoming (Sanskrit: punarbhava) is preferred to "reincarnation", as the latter is taken to imply there is a fixed entity that is reborn. However, this still leaves the question as to what exactly it is that is reborn.
The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. One of the metaphors used to illustrate this is that of fire. For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another. In the same way that it depends on the original fire, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next; they are not identical but neither are they completely distinct. The early Buddhist texts make it clear that there is no permanent consciousness that moves from life to life.
It is sometimes said that it is our saṃskāras, or volitional tendencies, that are reborn. According to this view, we have tendencies to act and think in particular ways. But again, how is it that saṃskāras can be transferred from one being to another? Perhaps still more difficult to understand is how a being in one life can reap the consequences of the conduct of another who is now dead.
These questions were problematic for the early Buddhists, and they came up with many theories to respond to them.
1. The Puggalavāda school -
2. The medieval Pali scholar Buddhaghosa
3. "Karma" school
4. The Sautrantika School
How Rebirth Happens
1. Theravada Buddhism - immediate
2. The Tibetan schools - Bardo
Which theory is correct then? So you attend to "trick" yourself into believing that whatever you do in this lifetime, you will be freed from its responsibility in the next, eh? ;) If anything i would be quite agreeable to the concept of Rebirth based on the Cycle of Consciousness.
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Rebirth as Cycle of Consciousness
Buddhist meditation teachers suggest that through careful observation of the mind, it is possible to see consciousness as being a sequence of conscious moments rather a continuum of awareness.
Each moment is an experience of an individual mind-state: a thought, a memory, a feeling, a perception.
A mind-state arises, exists and, being impermanent, ceases following which the next mind-state arises.
Thus the consciousness of a sentient being can be seen as a continuous series of birth and death of these mind-states.
In this context rebirth is simply the persistence of this process.
Clearly this explanation of rebirth is wholly divorced from rebirth which may follow bodily death and it is possible for a Buddhist to believe in either, both or neither definition.
The explanation of rebirth as a cycle of consciousness is much more consistent with other core Buddhist beliefs, such as anicca (impermanence), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). Furthermore it is possible to observe a karmic link between these mind-states.
In the practice of Vipassana meditation, the meditator uses 揵are attention So you attend to "trick" yourself into believing that whatever you do in this lifetime, you will be freed from its responsibility in the next, eh?
It is very unfortunate that you end up forming such lowly opinions instead of more matured views.
Here is one matured view byBhante Yogavacara Rahula, a Theravadian monk;
http://www.hundredmountain.com/Pages/dharmatalk_pages/talk_intropage.html
His view, which i agree with,is that the rebirth concept could another 'scare tactic' similar to the "heaven or hell" concept in Christianity.
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WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BODY DIES?
When the body dies this consciousness leaves the body. That consciousness is what you might consider the soul, in the sense of 'I will go to heaven' or some other place. In Buddhism, they believe in this theory that this mind also leaves the body, but it may assume another life form. They call it 're-becoming' or 'rebirth.'...
There are different theories propounded. Some people talk about a transition period, others talk about immediate rebirth. Personally, I don't give too much importance to all that. I don't really care about that too much. Whether there's rebirth or not, to me, is actually not that important. Because the Buddha wasn't interested in rebirth, he was interested in attaining liberation here and now, in this life.
And so, if you purify your mind here and now in this life, you don't have to worry about rebirth or anything else. It's really not necessary to believe that to get the benefit of meditation. And to free your mind.
So I wouldn't really worry too much about that. It's an interesting theory and all that, and even though we believe that it is probably true, it's nothing we're going to argue about because it doesn't really matter.
In the Christian theory they hold that if you live an evil life you might go to Purgatory or Hell, right? If you live a good life, obey the commandments, you might go to heaven. So in a sense that's like a scare tactic, it's the fear of God, the fear of one's actions---' I don't want to go to Hell, so I'll be good.' And you do good and you go to Heaven. So the Buddhists have the same sort of thing. But instead of a God sending you to Heaven or Hell, it's "rebirth"---being reborn in Heaven or Hell, according to your own actions, or in some other state. So it's also a scare tactic.
Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. If you believe it's true, it'll help you be good and not do negative actions that are going to bring you suffering. And if it winds up not to be true, you're not going to lose anything, you see? So it's win-win situation. If you believe it and do good, you don't suffer in this life, so you don't lose anything. But if it IS true and you live an evil life, and you're reborn in Hell, then you're going to suffer then, too. You suffer n this life as well as the next life. So it'sa lose-lose situation. (Laughs) At least, that's the way I see it.
But anyway, we shouldn't even cling to these theories. What we're interested in is living in the present moment and learning how our mind creates the obstacles to living in the present moment, here and now, peacefully. And how we create our suffering from moment to moment due to our outlook on life.
So that's the most important thing, really.
************************unquote Here is another view on Rebirth which i could agree with.
One do not have to speculate and worry about the afterlife as with Christians, Muslims and others.
This is the Kalama Sutta in action. We should read up as many views as possible and note the differences.
http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/kamma1.htm
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Kamma and Rebirth:
Rebirth occurs every time one does a deed, and that rebirth occurs spontaneously at the moment of action. We need not wait for rebirth to come after death, as is generally understand in the worldly sense.
When one thinks and acts, the mind is spontaneously changed through the power of desire and clinging, which lead immediately to becoming and birth in accordance with the law of Dependent Co-origination (paticca-samuppada).
There is no need to wait for physical death in order for rebirth to occur.
This truth should be realized as the true teaching of Buddhism, as a core principle of the original, pristine Buddhism that states there is no self (atta) to be reborn.
How the concept of rebirth after death crept into Buddhism is difficult to explain, and we need not concern ourselves with it.
Simply preventing rebirth within the stream of Dependent Co-origination is enough for us to be free. Stopping egoistic rebirth is truly in accordance with Buddhism, and such action will be the kind of kamma that can be taken as refuge.
When a good deed is done, goodness spontaneously arises; when an evil deed is done, evilness spontaneously arises. There is no need to wait for any further results.
If there will be any birth after death, that rebirth only occurs through the kamma one has done in this very life and the results of which have already occurred here.
We need not worry about rebirth such that it obstructs our practice.
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Comments:
Personally i would recommend those who link rebirth with after death to consider the alternative views.
Important Note:This is just another view. Apply Kalama Sutta.
End of Rebirth
The End of RebirthBy: Venerable Ajahn Viradhammo
Source: http://www.forestsangha.org
http://www.ottawabuddhistsociety.com/reading/AjahnV/endofrebirth.htm
Notice how birth and death work. You are bored with meditation, your knees are hurting, you want to get up and do something interesting. Then we get a pleasant beautiful, creative idea that is really going to help the world. Rather than simply noticing this as a pleasant idea, craving develops to keep it going. We start to think, we grasp the craving and them we create something. This is where we seek rebirth; we go on from one to the next to another.
It is important to notice this, because at that point we have a choice. If we can see craving clearly and not grasp it, we save ourselves a rebirth, and experience the silence of the mind.
If, on the other hand we choose to be reborn then out next option will be a death. Death is when the dancing will not stop; it continues on and on in the mind.
That is the decline the kamma of attachment; rather that face that decline into despair and boredom, we seek an alternative rebirth. That is why boredom and disillusionment are so very important. If we can simply bear to be with the ending of a cycle, that acceptance can take us beyond rebirth.
So we choose. Sometimes we will be able to notice that movement towards the pleasant, and we will say, "No, I don't really need that". At other times we will get caught up with the pleasure. Then we will experience its decline, and have to bear with that. Remember that if you are reborn, you will need to die again!
Nibbana, liberation, is that which is not born and does not die, it carries us beyond the cycle - not in terms of whether we will be a rabbit in the next life - but right now. If you get that principle right, it will always work for us in this way.
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I can agree with this type of Rebirth,
do not agree with the "will be a rabbit or dog in the next life" type of interpretation. by muchomike
It is very unfortunate that you end up forming such lowly opinions instead of more matured views.
Nothing mature will ever come from you. ;)
Agree with whatever you want, in the end, you will only be clinging to something which you do not have fear of. ;) Originally posted by Sephiroth at 6-6-2005 08:24:
by muchomike
It is very unfortunate that you end up forming such lowly opinions instead of more matured views.
Nothing mature will ever come from you. ;)
Agree with whatever you w ...
Please lets not hit on people using such statements as:
"Nothing mature will ever come from you." unless there is a good reason to do so.
[ Last edited by ariyamusafir on 7-6-2005 at 08:42 PM ] Agree,
with good reasons and basis to support assertions. The Fear is yours, not mine.
I have no problem in believing I will suffer in Hell for my own actions (due to karma) and come back (reborn) in this world once again to set my Karma straight. Acceptance of such fate allow me to be freed of my Fear of Death and Incaseration and allow me to focus in doing good for sake of others.
You are still trying to find beliefs which gives you freedom from your own fear of your actions and your sins. ;)
Another reason why Atheists are not (or can become) Buddhist and Buddhist are not Atheist (even so some proclaim such). To be a Buddhist, you should accept your life and possible afterlife in Hell, and focus in doing good while you still can.
Buddhist focus his attention in living a proper Life;NOT living in fear of what will happen when he is dead. The Fear is yours, not mine.
This is the problem, when did i personally express any fear?
I have only posted views from different Buddhist scholars and i have agreed with some and not others.
I have no problem in believing I will suffer in Hell for my own actions (due to karma) and come back (reborn) in this world once again to set my Karma straight.
Go on.. do what is best for yourself.
Note there are others who have different views on it.
According to Bhante Yogavacara Rahula, a Theravadian monk;
http://www.hundredmountain.com/P ... talk_intropage.html
the concept of rebirth is just another scare tactics like Christianity or Islam.
I believe when Buddhist progressed in their spiritual development, they will automatically overcome such fear and drop the concept of rebirth.
It's probably the lower Hinayana view.
You are still trying to find beliefs which gives you freedom from your own fear of your actions and your sins.
This is a problem with your imagination which is wrong and you blindly impose your shallow thinking on another person.
I do not have the same perspective as you, therefore there is no fear of my actions and sins.
Another reason why Atheists are not (or can become) Buddhist and Buddhist are not Atheist (even so some proclaim such). To be a Buddhist, you should accept your life and possible afterlife in Hell, and focus in doing good while you still can.
As i have posted, the core teachings of Buddha is the same for all, however different Buddhist have different views on other matters, e.g. rebirth, which are due to different era and culture.
Buddhist focus his attention in living a proper Life;NOT living in fear of what will happen when he is dead.
I agree with this.
But, then why do you say;
Acceptance of such fate allow me to be freed of my Fear of Death and Incaseration and allow me to focus in doing good for sake of others.
By the way, i am posting in this Buddhism thread to refresh my knowledge on Buddhism, not to argue with you.
i will appreciate if you do not pester me.
If you want to offer alternative view, just do so.
Do not use "you" this or "you" that and getting personal. by muchomike
This is the problem, when did i personally express any fear?
If you have no fear, then you don't have problem accepting Karma and Rebirth, now could you? :cak:
Go on.. do what is best for yourself.
I do, thank you.
This is a problem with your imagination which is wrong and you blindly impose your shallow thinking on another person.
I do not have the same perspective as you, therefore there is no fear of my actions and sins.
Sure there is ... Fear of being wrong in your perspective. Fear of what will happen next. Fear of where you are going. Fear of what will happen to you next. Religion to you is nothing more than a horror movie, which you cannot but to watch. You're trying desperately to deattach yourself mentally and emotionally but couldn't most of the time.
At least, that is my opinion about YOU when ever I read your post, and your little bit of fragments of your Mind in your post.
By the way, i am posting in this Buddhism thread to refresh my knowledge on Buddhism, not to argue with you.
Hmph ... ;) Seph: If you have no fear, then you don't have problem accepting Karma and Rebirth, now could you?
As i had said, keep your narrow thinking of fear to your own self.
I would recommend that one consider 'rebirth' as associated with cycle of consciousness as i had posted above, rather than that based on fear. The Buddha tought rebirth is not to scare people. What Buddha teaches is about Truths, NOT using lies to make people to be good. The cause and effect is with us, NOT some god deciding what effect punishment that we should be given due to the causes we make. http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=116059&fpage=3
Q: What does Buddhist believe?
A: Different Buddhist believe different things, but the nature of belief is itself an important issue in Buddhism. Belief is to be seen as belief, not as fact. When we see our beliefs as facts, then we are deluding ourselves. When we see our beliefs as beliefs, then we are not. Seeing things in their true light is the most important thing in Buddhism. Deluding ourselves is the cause of much suffering. So buddhists try to see beliefs as beliefs. They may still believe in certain things - that is their prerogative - but they do not cling to those beliefs; they do not mind or worry about whether their beliefs are true or not, nor do they try to prove that which they know cannot be proved. Ideally though, a Buddhist does not indulge in any kind of belief.
Q: Does Buddhism teach reincarnation?
A: Reincarnation is not a teaching of the Buddha. In Buddhism the teaching is of rebirth, not of reincarnation.
Q: What is the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?
A: The reincarnation idea is ito believe in a soul or a being, separate from the body. At the death of the physical body, this soul is said to move into another state and then enter a womb to be born again.
Rebirth is different and can be explained in this way. Take away the notion of a soul or a being living inside the body; take away all ideas of self existing either inside or outside the body. Also take away notions of past, present and future; in fact take away all notions of time. Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no before or after, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going. Yet there is life! Rebirth is the experience of life in the moment, without birth, without death; it is the experience of life which is neither eternal nor subject to annihilation.
Q: Does that mean there is no such thing as birth and death?
A: That which is born, dies. Forms come and go. All that comes into existence is impermanent. The physical body is impermanent; it is born and it dies. But the very essence of what 'I' am - Buddha-nature - is unborn and undying.
Q: Is this just a Buddhist belief ?
A: Buddhists are people and people do believe things, but Buddhism is concerned with truth, not with belief, and the teaching is to see things as they are. If we believe anything which has not been experienced, we should know what we are doing. When we do not understand something, then to maintain an open mind is the healthiest and wisest practice.
Q: But what happens when we die?
A: If we understand what the word 'I' really represents, we can realise the answer to this question. Buddhism does not offer intellectual answers; it only gives directions for the experiencing of truth.
by muchomike
As i had said, keep your narrow thinking of fear to your own self.
I would recommend that one consider 'rebirth' as associated with cycle of consciousness as i had posted above, rather than that based on fear.
What are you talking about? ;)
My question is simple one :
1. Do you accept the notion of Karma? What you sow will be reap by you as well? Yes or No.
2. Do you accept Rebirth? That you will face judgement for your karma in the next rebirth. Yes or No.
Thank You.
As for me, answers to the above is Yes in both questions. Only fair I state it first before asking. MM: I would recommend that one consider 'rebirth' as associated with cycle of consciousness as i had posted above, rather than that based on fear.
Seph: What are you talking about?
What am i talking about??
Can you understand simple English?
I had posted the following;
Post on 3-6-2005 04:02 PM
Rebirth occurs every time one does a deed, and that rebirth occurs spontaneously at the moment of action. We need not wait for rebirth to come after death, as is generally understand in the worldly sense.
Post on 3-6-2005 04:15 PM
By: Venerable Ajahn Viradhammo
http://www.ottawabuddhistsociety ... nV/endofrebirth.htm
Nibbana, liberation, is that which is not born and does not die, it carries us beyond the cycle - not in terms of whether we will be a rabbit in the next life - but right now. If you get that principle right, it will always work for us in this way.
Post on 3-6-2005 03:45 PM
I don't really care about that too much. Whether there's rebirth or not, to me, is actually not that important. Because the Buddha wasn't interested in rebirth, he was interested in attaining liberation here and now, in this life.
So the Buddhists have the same sort of thing. But instead of a God sending you to Heaven or Hell, it's "rebirth"---being reborn in Heaven or Hell, according to your own actions, or in some other state. So it's also a scare tactic.
Post on 3-6-2005 01:24 PM
The explanation of rebirth as a cycle of consciousness is much more consistent with other core Buddhist beliefs, such as anicca (impermanence), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). Furthermore it is possible to observe a karmic link between these mind-states.
The posts above clearly explained the basis of rebirth based on cycle of consciousness.
I agree with rebirth in the context of cycle of consciousness and i have recommended that others to consideror take note of this concept as opposed to those 'scare tactics' rebirth concepts.
If you have comprehension skills, you will not asked silly questions such as,
"What are you talking about?"
This same irritating problem from you have been repeated many times.
If you do not agree with the views of the various authors that i have posted, then present your views on why they are wrong.
On your Yes/No questions, at this point in time i do not want to discuss with you on a one to one basis. I do not find your attitude conducive for one-to-one discussion. ariyamusafir: Post on 8-6-2005 08:27 PM
The Buddha tought rebirth is not to scare people. What Buddha teaches is about Truths, NOT using lies to make people to be good.
I agree that the Buddha never had any intention to 'scare' anyone. Instead his purpose was to 'enlighten' or 'awaken' others to get rid of their fears.
However, humans have different levels of understandings.
For some people, they have taken rebirth as something to worry about after deaths. Maybe this is the best way they can understand it.
See Rev Dhammika's view on rebirth.
http://www.buddhanet.net/ans25.htm
When we die, the mind, with all the tendencies, preferences, abilities and characteristics that have been developed and conditioned in this life, re-establishes itself in a fertilised egg. Thus the individual grows, is re-born and develops a personality conditioned both by the mental characteristics that have been carried over.
How does the mind go from one body to another? http://www.buddhanet.net/ans26.htm
Think of it being like radio waves. The radio waves, which are not made up of words and music but energy at different frequencies, are transmitted, travel through space, and attracted to and picked up by the receiver from where they are broadcast as words and music. It is the same with the mind. At death, mental energy travels through space, is attracted to and picked up by the fertilised egg. As the embryo grows, it centres itself in the brain from where it later broadcasts itself as the new personality.
Rev Dhammika view on rebirth here is more concern about what happen after death. He may have stated this view to assure some Buddhists followers who are more inclined towards such views.
(Rev Dhammika may have his own personal views on rebirth)
The above view is quite different to the view on rebirth that you posted.
ariyamusafir: Post on 8-6-2005 08:43 PM
Rebirth is different and can be explained in this way.
Take away the notion of a soul or a being living inside the body; take away all ideas of self existing either inside or outside the body.
Also take away notions of past, present and future; in fact take away all notions of time.
Now, without reference to time and self, there can be no before or after, no beginning or ending, no birth or death, no coming or going.
Yet there is life!
Rebirth is the experience of life in the moment, without birth, without death; it is the experience of life which is neither eternal nor subject to annihilation.
I can agree to this.
I have posted other views on rebirth here.
Each view on rebirth would be applicable to different people at different stages of their spiritual development.
The cause and effect is with us, NOT some god deciding what effect punishment that we should be given due to the causes we make.
Agree.
'Dependent Origination' - Pa駃cca-Samupp郿a, cause and effect. Do we have a thread on this?